MacAztec said:
awww, i want to know what the insult was!!
so they tell it to the folks at baseball practice, got it. thanks, brah!
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Barry Bonds* (Steroids)
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awww, i want to know what the insult was!!
so they tell it to the folks at baseball practice, got it. thanks, brah!
Where to draw the line?
Ok, so we all have heard about babe ruth smoking cigars and drinking martinis and still pitching and hitting like nobody's business.
Nowadays, its more like protein shakes, vitamin B12 shots, oxygen masks for workouts, etc.
Where should MLB draw the line? No extra vitamin supplements? Vitamins are OK, but herbs are illegal? They think ephedra has been the cause of several deaths, but echinacha (sp?) might help with colds, so some herbs are ok and others are not.
And its ok to drink milk with Bovine Growth Hormone, but not to take Human Growth Hormone as a supplement?!
I think Bonds took whatever he could get his hands on, and by the league rules, he was legal. Since they started checking for PED, Bonds has tested clean (unlike Palmerio). I am not saying the tests are all that conclusive and that BALCO-like institutions are out there trying to beat the system, I am just saying what he did was legal at the time or he did not get caught.
Should all of us send in $100 dollars every time we speed or do a slooooooow role through a stop sign instead of coming to a complete stop?
Bonds played the game the way the league wanted it and the fans paid for it. I know lots of people who like "small ball" and good pitching, but there is a reason football (or soccer in the US) has not caught on - NOT ENOUGH SCORING. Heck, even the NHL just increased the size of the goals, reduced pad size, and instituted a shoot out system to make the games more popular.
Baseball makes money off home runs, new parks are smaller, players are bigger, balls are livelier, and Bud Selig is acting concerned all the way to the bank.
ok, so that is a bit rambling. I think that Bonds took all kinds of stuff, same as Palmerio, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, et al. Unless MLB throws out all records from 92-02 (or even earlier), they will never be free of "tainted" records.
They need to crack down and move on. The hard part is figuring out what is a "bad" drug.
Ok, so we all have heard about babe ruth smoking cigars and drinking martinis and still pitching and hitting like nobody's business.
Nowadays, its more like protein shakes, vitamin B12 shots, oxygen masks for workouts, etc.
Where should MLB draw the line? No extra vitamin supplements? Vitamins are OK, but herbs are illegal? They think ephedra has been the cause of several deaths, but echinacha (sp?) might help with colds, so some herbs are ok and others are not.
And its ok to drink milk with Bovine Growth Hormone, but not to take Human Growth Hormone as a supplement?!
I think Bonds took whatever he could get his hands on, and by the league rules, he was legal. Since they started checking for PED, Bonds has tested clean (unlike Palmerio). I am not saying the tests are all that conclusive and that BALCO-like institutions are out there trying to beat the system, I am just saying what he did was legal at the time or he did not get caught.
Should all of us send in $100 dollars every time we speed or do a slooooooow role through a stop sign instead of coming to a complete stop?
Bonds played the game the way the league wanted it and the fans paid for it. I know lots of people who like "small ball" and good pitching, but there is a reason football (or soccer in the US) has not caught on - NOT ENOUGH SCORING. Heck, even the NHL just increased the size of the goals, reduced pad size, and instituted a shoot out system to make the games more popular.
Baseball makes money off home runs, new parks are smaller, players are bigger, balls are livelier, and Bud Selig is acting concerned all the way to the bank.
ok, so that is a bit rambling. I think that Bonds took all kinds of stuff, same as Palmerio, McGwire, Sosa, Giambi, et al. Unless MLB throws out all records from 92-02 (or even earlier), they will never be free of "tainted" records.
They need to crack down and move on. The hard part is figuring out what is a "bad" drug.
MacNut said:
Neither have the Feds brought Bonds up on perjury or tax evasion charges, which, if the excerpts from the book are to be fully believed, Bonds is undoubtedly guilty of: perjury for lying under oath before the grand jury about the extent of his involvement with BALCO, and tax evasion for selling autographed memorabilia under the table to pay for his mistress' condo in Scottsdale.
IOW, the mountain of evidence is all still pretty much circumstantial. It's just a big witch hunt on the part of the media, in the words of Roger Clemens. I'm not sure which is more nauseating: Bonds' own-worst-enemy schtick, or the back-slapping/self-congratulatory media frenzy of the past few days.
While I used to be a die-hard defender of Bonds, I admit that it wouldn't surprise me much if he really did juice -- the problem is the evidence presented so far still doesn't fully add up. Bud Selig is saying something similar, and is of course being crucified for it.
I've been watching Bonds pretty closely since the early 90s. He seemed to get significantly more muscular as far back as 1996 and was able to hit 40+ HR numerous times before 1998. His swing has changed a lot, and his bat has certainly changed. He always had all the physical tools, save for a mediocre throwing arm, and he got the best of all baseball genetics from his father: the most complete physical specimen I ever saw play the game, even if he wasted his talents on booze, alcohol, and the cigarettes that eventually killed him.
But, again, if federal indictments come down, then that will pretty much prove it to me.
For me it's same issue I have with ball players chewing and spitting tobacco in the dugout. I don't want my (future) kids to think that they have to shoot up steroids in order to play professional baseball (or any other sport). The way things stand right now we've got a whole generation of kids who idolize these stars thinking that the only way they have a chance to make it on the stage of stages is to take illegal drugs! Steroids use builds up your muscles but after a while it completely destroys your bodies tissues turning you into a shadow of your former self. Vitamins, protein shakes, don't harm your body in the same dramatic fashion that steroid use does and that is why they are illegal (steroids).
If Barry took steroids then he should have an notation next to his name saying that he used. Sure they didn't help his accuracy, swing, work ethic blah blah blah but they sure helped him hit a ton of dingers and you can't argue that. The whole sport has been tainted by this and it's a damn shame.
If Barry took steroids then he should have an notation next to his name saying that he used. Sure they didn't help his accuracy, swing, work ethic blah blah blah but they sure helped him hit a ton of dingers and you can't argue that. The whole sport has been tainted by this and it's a damn shame.
I am not going to discuss the drug issue. It speaks for its self.
Bonds changed his swing into a very compact short stroke. He started using a 33" bat and choked up about an 1 1/2". His swing generates much more power than the long loopy swing that he once had. The short swing allows him to get around on fastballs much better. Alot of players should look at it. If you have not played the game you would not understand.
Bonds changed his swing into a very compact short stroke. He started using a 33" bat and choked up about an 1 1/2". His swing generates much more power than the long loopy swing that he once had. The short swing allows him to get around on fastballs much better. Alot of players should look at it. If you have not played the game you would not understand.
Dr. J said:
Bonds always had a very compact swing. You would never compare Bonds' swing circa 1990 with, say, Will Clark's long, graceful, "sweetest swing in baseball".
Despite that, Bonds' swing has changed pretty significantly over the years. He switched to heavier maple bats around 1997 or 1998 at the urging of teammate Joe Carter, and his swing gained more of an uppercut through the late 90s, yielding fewer line drives and more long fly balls. His retooled swing helps him with the inside fastball (he covers the inside corner -- with deadly power -- despite crowding the plate), but he also is just so disciplined at the plate and so knowledgable about the pitchers in the National League, he always seems to know what's coming.
MacAztec said:
Spoken like a baseball purist.
And what of the grandfathered forearm protector? That okay too? If he were facing Drysdale or Gibson they'd say "You can have the inside or the outside, not both". Their first pitch would be between his cheating eyes.
He's an abomination.
Dr. J said:
The compact swing has its advantages, but not every player can pull it off. It takes exceptionally fast hands to really take advantage of it. Ted Williams had a similar swing, quick and designed just for bat speed while in the hitting zone.
I don't think you have to have played the game to understand. Quite a few pro athletes are absolute morons about the mechanics of the game they play.
Bonds has got problems, for him to take chlomid, a female fertility drug and even more bizarre the steroid trenbolone, used to increase the muscle quality in cattle proves this guy was nuts, and would stop at nothing to gain an edge.
talks about it here
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/9.html
talks about it here
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/9.html
It seems that the pitchers don't challenge Bond's like they should, Its like here ya go hit it, I want to see them brush him off the plate or force him off his feet. Make him earn it don't just give it to him.Deepdale said:
or is it the fact that National League pitchers are weaker then the ones in the American League.
MacNut said:
Actually pitchers don't challenge anyone inside anymore. It used to be that pitchers could brush back or bean hitters with their only fear being that they could get beaned when they batted. It was considered part of the game and something almost all pitchers had to do sometimes.
Now the players wear body armor so they won't get hurt even if they're hit, act indignant when it happens, and incite bench-clearing brawls that result in suspensions. Umpires are warning both sides after even one HBP and the intimidation factor has kind of disappeared from a pitcher's arsenal.
I think there are two other big factors. One is that the batter's box lines are never enforced anymore. The players have usually rubbed them out by the third inning. Quite a few players (including Bonds) stand so close to the plate that pitching him just inside risks hitting him. And the other problem is that batters still get first base even if they make no effort to avoid the pitch. Some hard fastballs can't be dodged, obviously, but some players (like Biggio) lean in and let it hit them. This is technically against the rules and the umpire has the option of NOT awarding first base in that situation, but that almost never happens anymore. (It happened at Dodger Stadium last season and Biggio threw a tantrum and was ejected.)
What are the odds?
In last Sundays NY Daily News, there was a Hot List article entitled Odds on what will happen to Barry Bonds?
Passes Babe Ruth HR mark: 1/50
Ties Hank Aaron HR mark: 3/2
Sues Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams (co-authors of the latest book about him): 2/1
Passes Hank Aaron HR mark: 5/2
Retires before new book publication: 6/1
Retires before reaching Babe Ruth HR mark: 10/1
Breaks his wrist on his first at-bat: 10/1
Wins World Series with the Giants: 12/1
Has a fling with Simon Cowell: 20/1
Has a fling with Randy Jackson: 20/1
Becomes a drag queen: 75/1
Passes Babe Ruth, undergoes sex change operation: 150/1
Weds Simon Cowell or Clay Aiken in San Francisco: 200/1
Gets abducted by aliens on Giants Opening Day: 500/1
In last Sundays NY Daily News, there was a Hot List article entitled Odds on what will happen to Barry Bonds?
Passes Babe Ruth HR mark: 1/50
Ties Hank Aaron HR mark: 3/2
Sues Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams (co-authors of the latest book about him): 2/1
Passes Hank Aaron HR mark: 5/2
Retires before new book publication: 6/1
Retires before reaching Babe Ruth HR mark: 10/1
Breaks his wrist on his first at-bat: 10/1
Wins World Series with the Giants: 12/1
Has a fling with Simon Cowell: 20/1
Has a fling with Randy Jackson: 20/1
Becomes a drag queen: 75/1
Passes Babe Ruth, undergoes sex change operation: 150/1
Weds Simon Cowell or Clay Aiken in San Francisco: 200/1
Gets abducted by aliens on Giants Opening Day: 500/1
If you'd like to read a book that includes many amazing things, including what steroids do to human beings, read "Native Tongue" by Carl Hiaasen. He's a great writer and this particular book covers many subjects in a most unusual way
I haven't posted yet in this thread because it seemed stupid to repost points I've already covered in the Baseball Season 2006 thread. However, there is an interesting article by Victor Conte, former head of BALCO, that I'm sure everyone will discount immediately. If you do immediately discount his points, I'd ask you if you immediately assume Barry's accusers have no bias and are entirely credible? I, as always, will state I don't know if Barry took steroids - it is entirely possible that he did along with many others who likely did the same thing. Anyway it is worth a read.
USA Today
So he admitted to giving roids to players just not Bonds, It seems kinda far fetched that Barry was known to be connected in some way to Balco yet had nothing to do with it. Conte is scum for supplying players so whatever he says is worthless to me.
MacNut said:
MacNut, I think you miss the point of Conte's article. It says nothing about whether Bonds is guilty of using steroids or not. He only says he has never supplied Barry or talked to Bonds about steroids. What it does point to is the fabrication of evidence (in this case Conte's supposed confession) and the leaking of highly biased information to the press. He gives as proof of that his testimony under oath and under the penalty of perjury that he did not say what this book and what prosecutors say he said. All of that could be true and Barry could still be guilty. However, the trial by press leak should worry everyone. There is a reason grand jury testimony is secret. There is a reason that people must be convicted in a court of law, not in the press where rules of evidence and the ability to cross examine your accusers don't apply. At least it should concern everyone even if you think Barry is the only steroid user in sports and the most vile person who walks the planet.
He states that he did not supply Bonds with steroids. Whether that's actually true or not, we'll just take it at face value for now. I just find it interesting however that he never denied giving steroids to Bonds' trainer... from what's been published so far, it seems like Bonds' trainer is the link between Conte/BALCO and Bonds.Sayhey said:
And no, I do not believe for one second that Bonds was the only player taking steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs at the time.
stonyc said:
Which is the reason I underlined the word "he." It is entirely possible Anderson got drugs (the "clear" and the "cream") from Conte and it was Anderson who supplied Bonds with drugs. This is something we will never be able to evaluate through a court case. What we are asked to take as truth is the prosecution's leaked evidenced, again none of which must now be evaluated by standards of a court, and we have no chance to see anything of a contradictory nature. I would remind everyone this case is over and the prosecution decided not to charge Barry with anything. However, the trial continues in leaks to the press without the federal authorities having to follow far more important laws than getting a doctor's prescription for the use of steroids. This is a witch hunt - even if Bonds did what they say he did.
xsedrinam said:
I haven't yet read Schmidt's book, but I did provide a link to a newspaper article about the revelations in his book over in the other thread. Funny, I don't hear any calls for his removal from the HOF. I will also be curious to see if McGwire, Sosa, Palmerio, etc. are vilified and denied entrance to the Hall.
For those who are naive enough to believe this is a recent phenomenon they should also look at statements of Tom House and, of course, the classic book of the '60s Ball Four by Jim Bouton.
xsedrinam said:
Interestingly, Schmidt made some very strong comments in defense of Bonds right after the book excerpts were published.
Also interesting to comment about Bobby Bonds: even though Barry was very close to his dad, I think he clearly saw the mistakes Bobby made and learned from them. Bobby had the prototypical baseball body and might have been physically the most complete player ever to play the game, but he squandered the gift through drink, drugs, and generally not taking care of himself. It was a sad sight to see him back in 1981 at age 34, sitting alone in the bleachers of Arguello Park in San Carlos watching Bobby Jr's Little League games.
Is it possible that Conte is lying about not giving drugs to Bonds, If he said he gave to other players why should I believe that he had no idea that Bonds was taking, Just because he didn't supply Bonds doesn't mean he had no idea that Bonds was using.
MacNut said:
Anything is possible, MacNut. I was trying to draw your attention to the fact Conte said what he did about his supposed confession under oath with the penalties of perjury hanging over his head. That is very different than leaking hearsay evidence and and untested documents to the press. You can obviously believe what ever you want, but I would only ask that you don't let your bias against Barry make you dismiss anything that would call into question the reliability of of the charges made against him.