Base and Middle Tier Mac Pro Models Offer CPU Performance Similar to iMac Pro

[Digital Skunk]

I brought up HANDBRAKE in regard to "sustained performance." A big thermal load is a big thermal load.

Again, my 9700K will run a big AVX load like HANDBRAKE, all 8 cores at 4.8 GHz ALL DAY LONG and the core temperatures don't exceed 65C. The Mac Pro's "sustained performance" is nothing special.

32 core Threadripper 3970X, overclocked, can run full bore indefinitely and stay under 75C. Again, the Mac Pro's "sustained performance" is nothing special.

And that's totally fine, but I wouldn't use Handbrake as a benchmark for performance across the board and as a comparison for Xeon or any other system. The same goes for the video game titles we hear over and over again.

Handbrake is coded very well, but it's open-source, on version 1.x and took a decade to get out of beta. It also doesn't encode/decode anything but lightweight video formats. And to be honest, most people download it to decode DVDs and remove DRMs. MPEGStreamclip is at least faster at encoding, and Apple's Compressor is even faster and is lighter on the overall system.

 

[IG88]

And that's totally fine, but I wouldn't use Handbrake as a benchmark for performance across the board and as a comparison for Zeon or any other system. The same goes for the video game titles we hear over and over again.

Handbrake is coded very well, but it's open-source, on version 1.x and took a decade to get out of beta. It also doesn't encode/decode anything but lightweight video formats. And to be honest, most people download it to decode DVDs and remove DRMs. MPEGStreamclip is at least faster at encoding, and Apple's Compressor is even faster and is lighter on the overall system.

I see your point. Yeah if you're buying a $6K+ Mac Pro to run Handbrake, you're doing it wrong. So in that light, it's not a good benchmark.

I will say that Apple's cooling design does appear impressive. No fan directly on the heatsink, front fans provide enough airflow. And it's apparently quiet.

 

[Adult80HD]

I see your point. Yeah if you're buying a $6K+ Mac Pro to run Handbrake, you're doing it wrong. So in that light, it's not a good benchmark.

I will say that Apple's cooling design does appear impressive. No fan directly on the heatsink, front fans provide enough airflow. And it's apparently quiet.

It's ridiculously quiet. Mine came yesterday and at the moment it's on top of my desk about 18" from my head, and I can barely hear a whisper from the fans. Almost dead silent. Even when I ran some CPU benchmarks to cap out the CPU's, it never got louder.

 

[MauiPa]

Right now AMD is totally cleaning Intel's clock with the Threadripper. The processor you mentioned can be had now for as low as $899.00 currently, specs that easily match the Xeon W 3245 (a price search pulls up $2400.00 currently). The 16 core Xeon 3245 has a single core score of 1107 vs. 1,309 for the AMD 3950X and 14,174 (AMD) vs. 14,285 (Xeon) for multicore.

From a processor perspective, I'm not sure what Apple's game plan is right now (are they just biding their time with Intel until they can use their own ARM chips in the Mac Pros?) or if they are locked in with Intel, but currently I don't see any reason for them not to jump ship completely to AMD. Sure they'd have to do some redevelopment on their Logic Board (they even call it that anymore), but it would allow them to shave a considerable amount off of the cost of the low to mid-range Mac Pros and see some nice performance gains.

I used to go with AMD when building my rigs, then moved to Intel once it became clear they were the performance leaders in the Core 2 and i7 years, but will be moving back to AMD for my next build unless Intel can overtake them again at some point.

Comparing a xeon class chip to anything else is apples and oranges. Not sure specifically on the AMD, but vs the i9. 3 times memory bandwidth (6 lanes vs 2, and in actual bandwidth), way more pcie lanes, ECC memory support, way better thermal capacity. No one, literally no one, would buy Xeon's solely for their Geekbench score.

 

[Killroy]

This is my 12 core 2019 Mac Pro.numbers

Why are your 12 core numbers so low?

 

[724699]

lol oh man ... the people complaining of the price of this thing.... do you have any idea the workmanship and cost to produce everything from the motherboard and ALL components, to the fans, high quality metals, flat black coating on all components, connectors, fit and finish etc etc. This computer is ridiculously high-end.

Even the fans alone that are programmed to operate at different RPMs from each other was carefully planned and implemented. The fans themselves are super high-end from the same company that makes gentle typhoon fans (Nidec) - the fan system alone is worth over $300-400 if any of you have built a full custom system with high end cooling.

You guys have no clue what you’re talking about when it comes to cost. It’s hilarious.

 

[konqerror]

Even the fans alone that are programmed to operate at different RPMs from each other was carefully planned and implemented.

There is absolutely nothing special about that. All pre-built PCs do that, as well as being tuned to avoid the 5400 and 7200 RPM of hard drives. Dell uses Nidec fans, so nothing special either.

It's only a revelation to people who self-build computers. You may also be amazed to realize that companies like Dell do complex fluid-dynamic modeling and to find how dust settles and design it to minimize system clogging.

When it comes to looking good and having matte black interiors, or working better, by having say an extra socket and SP line processors, most people rather have working better.

 

[throAU]

It's only a revelation to people who self-build computers.

Nah, as someone who self builds every PC I've ever owned, we have fan controllers (and things like radiators and bigger slow moving fans) for this reason.

 

[konqerror]

Nah, as someone who self builds every PC I've ever owned, we have fan controllers (and things like radiators and bigger slow moving fans) for this reason.

And you set the fan curves to have a non-harmonic offset at any temperature?

Even the self-build form factors are obsolete. Motherboards have been 12 V only for about 5 years now to meet Energy Star/EPEAT requirements. Many have on-board power distribution (drives pull power from the motherboard). And now because it's too complex to run a Thunderbolt or similar signal to a cabled front panel, motherboard form factors are now shaped to have an integrated front panel.

Homebuilt computers have been left behind in engineering long ago. An Optiplex 7060, a mass-market corporate minitower:

 

[724699]

There is absolutely nothing special about that. All pre-built PCs do that, as well as being tuned to avoid the 5400 and 7200 RPM of hard drives. Dell uses Nidec fans, so nothing special either.

It's only a revelation to people who self-build computers. You may also be amazed to realize that companies like Dell do complex fluid-dynamic modeling and to find how dust settles and design it to minimize system clogging.

When it comes to looking good and having matte black interiors, or working better, by having say an extra socket and SP line processors, most people rather have working better.

What classifies as "special" these days to anyone anymore? The Mac Pro is premium. It's as much a work of art for tech enthusiasts as it's a solid, capable machine that is a reliable work-horse; that runs Mac OS which is such better software than Windows it's not even a fair comparison. Hint hint ... from someone who knows some of the code base and has a comp sci. buddy of mine (used to) lead up the a division of the MS Office core team.

The Mac Pro is beautiful inside out. For some people, nothing will ever be enough. Also, NO technology is perfect. I'm also into cars, and have an RS5 Audi. Beautiful car in so many ways. However, could Audi please on a $90,000 car figure out better wipers and not having the window control motors burn out and leave your window stuck down in the winter? You can always find faults ....

This machine is worth the money if you truly appreciate it. So is the Pro Display XDR. Hands-down, best high-end all-purpose monitor on the market.

P.S - that Dell tower, is a hunk of junk FYI

 

[throAU]

Homebuilt computers have been left behind in engineering long ago. An Optiplex 7060, a mass-market corporate minitower:

Which does not do many of the things a self built will do.

You are comparing apples and ham sandwiches there. If I wanted something as trash tier performance as that, I'd have no fans at all - entirely passively cooled.

 

[konqerror]

What classifies as "special" these days to anyone anymore? The Mac Pro is premium. It's as much a work of art for tech enthusiasts as it's a solid, capable machine that is a reliable work-horse; that runs Mac OS which is such better software than Windows it's not even a fair comparison. Hint hint ... from someone who knows some of the code base and has a comp sci. buddy of mine (used to) lead up the a division of the MS Office core team.

Here's your hint: Apple doesn't engineer their own computers. They set the general parameters, do their value-adds but the actual engineering is done by Taiwanese ODMs, particularly Compal and Wistron, the same people who build Dell, HP and Lenovo. There's some Mac schematics floating around out there with Compal and Wistron names.

The Taiwanese ODMs base all their designs on Intel reference designs anyway. That's why a ton of computers look the same between Dell, HP and Lenovo.

Apple doesn't even repair the computers either, it's done in the exact same contractor facility as Lenovo.

All the same supply chain. Tim Cook doesn't want to fight it.

 

[724699]

Interesting. Didn't know that. To what extent?

Regardless though, wherever this computer is engineered & manufactured, it's put together at a higher standard overall than anything else I've come across. Though I do of course see how an "Intel CPU is an Intel CPU" applies to all components inside the Mac, but the whole thing put together as one with Mac OS etc. is still a "the sum is greater than the parts" equation. The nice touches on the latching mechanism for all the MPX cards, and on the motherboard itself is really slick.

I have never come across a Dell or the like, that was so cleanly laid out, well-optimized and beautiful to look at as well as use. Especially with Windows in the mix. The entire Apple experience is the best out there.

I did come from a PC background, having built for years custom full-watercooled systems for both sever usage, high-end development workstations and gaming. Using Case Labs custom cases, Aquaero cooling controllers etc. Got up to over $10,000 per build - I would say this Mac Pro outdoes in every way, the crazy lengths you had to go to in the past, to build a quiet and high-performing, clutter free computer.

 

[chucker23n1]

Here's your hint: Apple doesn't engineer their own computers.

Yes, they do.

They set the general parameters, do their value-adds but the actual engineering is done by Taiwanese ODMs, particularly Compal and Wistron, the same people who build Dell, HP and Lenovo. There's some Mac schematics floating around out there with Compal and Wistron names.

Apple doesn't contract ODMs, but OEMs.

The Taiwanese ODMs base all their designs on Intel reference designs anyway. That's why a ton of computers look the same between Dell, HP and Lenovo.

Most (all?) Macs use a completely custom logic board design. Heck, Apple doesn't really use Intel's Wi-Fi or SSD controllers, even. The introduction of the T2 makes the design fairly different. Not to mention all the other custom components; the trackpad, for example, is Apple's, not Synaptics's.

And when Apple first switched to Intel, Apple's heavy use of EFI was unusual and required custom designs.

 

[724699]

Here's your hint: Apple doesn't engineer their own computers. They set the general parameters, do their value-adds but the actual engineering is done by Taiwanese ODMs, particularly Compal and Wistron, the same people who build Dell, HP and Lenovo. There's some Mac schematics floating around out there with Compal and Wistron names.

The Taiwanese ODMs base all their designs on Intel reference designs anyway. That's why a ton of computers look the same between Dell, HP and Lenovo.

Apple doesn't even repair the computers either, it's done in the exact same contractor facility as Lenovo.

All the same supply chain. Tim Cook doesn't want to fight it.

I call "BS" ... just did a search for "Compal and Wistron" Apple Mac schematics. I did find some schematics for mainboard interconnect diagrams, but they were copyrighted Apple 'custom design'. Sorry bud.

 

[high heaven]

Ditch Intel, get AMD.
[automerge]1587584710[/automerge]

Everyone is predicting an ARM transition but is Apple really going to make server CPUs with support for ECC RAM, a ton of TB3 lanes, etc and force all the software vendors to build for ARM? I don't really see how that investment makes sense for Apple for processors that are more power efficient in a chasis that is already built to handle massive power draws.

Ampere made 80 cores ARM with 210W

 

[konqerror]

I call "BS" ... just did a search for "Compal and Wistron" Apple Mac schematics. I did find some schematics for mainboard interconnect diagrams, but they were copyrighted Apple 'custom design'. Sorry bud.

You made my point. This is very common in the industry. Apple paid Compal and Wistron to design and integrate the computers. Apple owns the copyright as per the contract, but you just proved that Apple did not do the engineering.

The fact is that all of computer engineering capability is in Taiwan right now, not the US.

Most (all?) Macs use a completely custom logic board design. Heck, Apple doesn't really use Intel's Wi-Fi or SSD controllers, even. The introduction of the T2 makes the design fairly different. Not to mention all the other custom components; the trackpad, for example, is Apple's, not Synaptics's.

Concept of T2 is not new, see the HP Endpoint Security Controller.

Apple's Wi-Fi is a Broadcom design to maintain commonality with their mobile devices. Broadcom is the world's biggest supplier of client and infrastructure Wi-Fi, not Intel.

Wrong on the last point, the trackpad is built on a touchscreen controller made by Broadcom, originally intended for smartphones. They built a smartphone touchscreen without the screen.

 

[chucker23n1]

You made my point. This is very common in the industry. Apple paid Compal and Wistron to design and integrate the computers. Apple owns the copyright as per the contract, but you just proved that Apple did not do the engineering.

Sorry, what's next? Are you also going to claim that Apple doesn't design their Ax CPUs?

Concept of T2 is not new, see the HP Endpoint Security Controller.

How is that relevant? Your contention was that Apple doesn't engineer and instead uses Compal and Wistron designs. They by and large do not do that.

You're shifting the goalposts.

 

[konqerror]

Sorry, what's next? Are you also going to claim that Apple doesn't design their Ax CPUs?

A large amount of the IP in Apple SOCs is purchased. For example, if you've actually seen the console logs for the iPhone driver for Lightning always identified it as a USB OTG core from Synopsys, which reveals what Lightning is. Somebody also found the video encoder/decoder IP supplier, and I think the Neural Engine is purchased.

Which is exactly what Apple does. Engineering where there's a value-add, buy everything else.

How is that relevant? Your contention was that Apple doesn't engineer and instead uses Compal and Wistron designs. They by and large do not do that.

Wrong. You are misunderstanding the whole thing. They hire Compal and Wistron to design to their specs, which are largely based off Intel reference designs. Same as Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc. Apple does not lay out PCBs, do validation, produce production tooling, etc. The ODM does.

That's what I said and I'm sticking to it.

Just compare a original Mac Pro to the contemporaneous Dell Precision. Exact same proprietary chassis layout, drive bays, power supply, etc. Just more metal trim on Apple.