Be aware that OS X (at least Leopard) is not "rock solid"

Discussion in 'macOS' started by ArthurDaley, Jun 8, 2008.

  1. ArthurDaley macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    #1
    I'd love to write something longer to detail my experience of moving over to a Mac (MBP running 10.5.2) after 16 years of using Windows. But for now, I'll keep this one short and to the point. The purpose is to provide more honesty than you get from "apple diehards".

    My faith in Windows being a long term platform vanished with Vista and I decided to move quicker than later because if my main laptop broke, I could not get another one with XP (and it's against principle to be forced to buy Vista just to "downgrade").

    So on moving over to a MBP I had visions set by what I realise now are what I call Mac zealots. What I'd like to do thru a few posts is point out the reality of moving over to the Mac.

    With the aim of keeping this short, let me make the first point by mentioning a geek t-shirt I have. Soon after I got totally sick of XP, I bought a t-shirt which read:

    "End Task,
    End Task,
    End Task,
    End the f**king task" (stars added for forum)

    One of my biggest hopes was I'd not suffer this on a Mac. The reality is on a good day it maybe occurs quarter of the time it did on XP and on a bad day like yesterday, the same amount of times. Yesterday I was left wanting a t-shirt which read:

    "Force Quit,
    Force Quit,
    Force Quit,
    F**cking Force Quit the B**tard"

    Yesterday may have been more demanding as I was using Parallels quite a bit (to get some data over). But the point remands the same - on moving to the Mac you may not be hitting CTRL+ALT+DEL but you will be hitting COMMAND+OPTION+ESCAPE, albeit somewhat less often.
     
  2. sananda macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    #2
    that may be your experience, but it's not mine.
     
  3. nick9191 macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2008
    Location:
    Britain
    #3
    Leopard can still be a bit buggy, hell its only been out 8 months. Compared to XP thats been out 7 years I would say its quite a triumph :p

    Also your still on 10.5.2 apparently. 10.5.3 is out, get that, it will improve your system a lot ;)
     
  4. Tallest Skil macrumors P6

    Tallest Skil

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2006
    Location:
    1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
    #4
    Be aware that Windows (pick a version) is not "rock solid".
     
  5. costabunny macrumors 68020

    costabunny

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Location:
    ~/bunny/
    #5
    There is no such thing as a Rock Solid OS. The OS is designed to be as strong and stable as possible under most predictable conditions. Any OS will experience problems from time to time for a plethora of reasons, (user abuse, bad programming, unforseen conflicts between apps/hardware and such like).

    I am a recent convert myself and have also seen a crash (and am pretty sure it was due to th eamount if pounding my macbok air is getting until the MacPro takes over the serious stuff).

    My point is that even the mighty Solaris and other posix OS's have problems from time to time. The Mac os has less than most commercially available to the public becuase it is targetted at specific hardware boundries (apple).

    I remember seeing the 'bomb' on my Mac LCII back in the day and to be honest about the same frequency as my PC would crash (MSDOS5) - this however was about once or twice a year. Times have changed and we all demand a lot more from our systems, and as such we have to expect an occasional hang up.

    My current experience is somewhat good with the MAC OS X 10.5.3.

    Take heart my fellow antivistanarian - it is better than most OS's......

    Thanks tho for your honesty
     
  6. northerngit macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2007
    Location:
    England
    #6
    I'm a switcher too - my MBP has locked up, not just the application, but even a complete kernel panic (OS X BSOD). Application lockups stopped when I ditched Office 2008 for iWork, and the kernel panics and other related flakiness when I ditched Parallels for VMWare.

    Parallels and its networking components bring mine and many of my colleagues machines to their knees. VMware, not so much ;)
     
  7. Genghis Khan macrumors 65816

    Genghis Khan

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    #7
    as far as rock solid OS's go

    XP > Vista
    Leopard > XP
    Tiger > Leopard
    Tiger 10.4.11 > mythical future OS that never stalls/crashes/reminds you of windows in general
     
  8. AppleMatt macrumors 68000

    AppleMatt

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Location:
    UK
    #8
    So what's the problem with your machine?

    Maybe we can help.

    AppleMatt
     
  9. Yvan256 macrumors 601

    Yvan256

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Canada
    #9
    All I can say is that your computer is probably lacking RAM for all the tasks you want to do. My Mac mini used to give me the spinning beachball quite often, however after upgrading to 2.5GB this little box rarely has time to play volleyball anymore. ;)

    It could also be your applications that are at fault and not the OS, so YMMV. So far, in almost 3 years, my Mac minis have frozen about 4 times total. I don't see why your system is having as much problems as you are saying.
     
  10. Laco macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    #10
    yeah i feel the same way

    i switched to mac os x almost exactly a year ago. The very first time i used it i had a kernel panic which caused tiger to no longer boot up I had to use the disk that came with the computer. Since then I've had probably somewhere around 100 kernel panics that froze my computer. But 10.5.2 crashed a lot less and 10.5.3 hasn't had a kernel panics YET, even though there have been some minor problems. The only thing that I like about the mac os x, over windows, is the fact there are virtually no viruses or trojans which is a big plus other then that Mac Os X and Xp are about the same in my opinion. So I may switch back with my next computer purchase if windows 7 is very good.
     
  11. Mord macrumors G4

    Mord

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Location:
    UK
    #11
    What is it that you're force quitting exactly, the finder or specific apps?

    If it's not kernel panicing then the *OS* is stable, if apps are crashing then it's likely that you're running buggy apps, apple can't create a magical OS that automagically runs buggy programs perfectly the best they can do is create an OS that won't fall over when an application does.

    If your mac is freezing up completely or kernel panicking there is something wrong with it probably a hardware fault.
     
  12. JNB macrumors 604

    JNB

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2004
    Location:
    In a Hell predominately of my own making
    #12
    Leading with a "Look, I really, really don't like Windows, but..." disclaimer/cred-builder is unnecessary. It's OK to continue to use & even enjoy other OS's, even those from MS, we won't think less of you. :p Instead of just saying that OS X is less than perfect (which we all know, anyway), why not start with the paragraph above--and why exactly it was necessary to Force Escape, and give us a little detail about your machine and the complete symptoms. The Mac & its OS aren't some sort of "magic box," configuration & settings are important. I spend a lot of time with my MacBook running Win2K3 Server, Oracle 11, and a proprietary commerce application with zero problems under Fusion, but I can't do that by allocating too little memory, having other things running that aren't needed at the time, etc.
     
  13. G4DP macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2007
    #13
    I'm having the same trouble since 10.5.3. Quiting applications doesn't alway work and neither does force quiting. You have to continually hit force quit, on the 4th or 5th time it decides to do it.
     
  14. DoFoT9 macrumors P6

    DoFoT9

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Location:
    Singapore
    #14
    wow 100???

    under jaguar/tiger/leopard i have had no more than 20 in the last 5-6 years.. what have you been doing lol!! running too much 3rd party software?? haha

    my only major kernal panics have been either
    a) a lacie external HD causing the problem
    b) 3rd party software
    c)crappy RAM
     
  15. Laco macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    #15
    I would say that about 40 to 50 percent of those had to do with hibernation in leopard (during which time i had an on average of 4 to 5 kernel panics per day), which caused me no try to avoid hibrination all together for a long time. The other half I'm not sure of, but also seemed to have been tiger and leopard 10.5.0 and 10.5.1 related since they decreased greatly in 10.5.2 and 10.5.3 didn't crash YET, i hope it stays that way~!
     
  16. decksnap macrumors 68040

    decksnap

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    #16
    100 Kernel panics is obviously a hardware problem. If I saw TWO kernel panics, the machine would be going back in. But that hasn't happened.
     
  17. QCassidy352 macrumors G3

    QCassidy352

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Location:
    Bay Area
    #17
    I agree. I have had zero on leopard and maybe one ever on tiger. The only kernal panic I can distinctly remember was with 10.2, and it was caused by my moving system files. :rolleyes:
     
  18. Hmac macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    #18


    All one has to to do is say "I'm not having that problem" and they are labeled an "Apple diehard".
     
  19. Quu macrumors 68020

    Quu

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    #19
    The only application I find I have to Force Quit because its not responding is Safari (sadly). Usually I visit some site that is running a not very well coded script and Safari locks up with the beach ball for over 30 seconds and I get frustrated and Force Quit.

    I've had it happen with all my applications of course but its never a regular occurrence like with Safari. I'm also a Vista user and I don't have many applications crash on there either. Team Fortress 2, a game by VALVe (makers of Half Life) always always crashes on Exit. What I mean is I will click the Exit on the game, the game will then close completely but I get a crash report box appear saying the game crashed.. Not that it is so bothersome I just hit the Close button and its gone.

    That's the only real application I find that crashes on my Vista install and Safari likewise on Leopard.

    A far cry from Mac OS 10.2 and the first few years of Windows XP I can tell you now!
     
  20. AnalyzeThis macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2007
    #20
    It is not always the OS at fault.

    Quitting Parallels is not very wise move - it is using a bunch of kernel extensions, so it is like trying to terminate kernel. I would agree parallel is not the best product out there. BTW it is causing issues in 10.4.11 as well (I ended up erasing one of my VM image and started from scratch as it completely lost its mind). VMFusion may be the answer as I heard more positive than negative about.

    It you want to stay rock-stable - stick with Apple software only, if possible, or 3rd party apps that do not rely on kernel or extensions as these type of app could potentially wreck a havoc in your system (Virtualization, hardware monitors/diagnostic/performance and etc.).

    I am about to clean-install Leopard instead of my "rock-solid" Tiger, but I would not want just to upgrade it, to make sure old stuff would not interfere with new OS.
     
  21. Infrared macrumors 68000

    Infrared

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2007
    #21
    Your expectations are set too high. Programs lock up on all
    OSes. In most cases it's the fault of the application writer.

    OS X and Vista are both pretty solid, and Vista is substantially
    more solid than XP (more code runs in user mode than before).
     
  22. br0adband macrumors 6502a

    br0adband

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    #22
    I gotta pipe in here and say:

    That is the most Windows-like advice I've ever encountered here at this forum and most certainly un-Apple-like to a very high degree. Why would someone need "improvement" for "the world's most advanced operating system" ? Eh? If it's so damned advanced, what's with all the updates - and why don't people look at Leopard as people look at Vista in the sense that "Ok, it wasn't done right when it was shoved out the door, so we'll just patch it as time goes by." Why don't actual Mac owners that do have issues - the incredibly silent minority, mind you - actually speak up from time to time and say "Hey, that does bother me, but I let it go" because I know damned well that not 100% of current Apple Macintosh computer owners are 100% satisfied - it's impossible, and anyone saying otherwise would be a liar, period.

    The OP is merely stating a fact that is true and remains true regardless of what "PC" you own or bought or built or use: no OS is perfect, but a lot of Mac owners do tend to claim more often than not that the sheer fact that Apple builds the machine and then writes the OS tailored for the machine they build. One could argue to some degree that Macs are the "consoles" of the personal computing industry because of the narrow tightly controlled architecture and platform tied to a specific OS.

    Regardless, I can speak from my own experience of having owned 4 "real" Macs in a 2 month span of time (all returned for being defective - not even Apple can make 'em that perfect).

    For an OS that Apple claims is "the most advanced operating system" I'm looking at not one, not two, but now THREE major updates to Leopard since it's release and within 7 days of the release of the third, they're now testing the FOURTH major update.

    And here we are with the person above saying "Oh, don't worry about it, just grab the latest 'service pack' (my words, but they get the point across) and you'll be fine."

    Sounds like the advice people give Vista RTM users... "Oh, don't worry about it, just grab the latest service pack and you'll be fine, they fixed that with the latest update."

    The similarities are mind boggling... :)
     
  23. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #23

    No piece of software comes out of the gate perfect. Furthermore, incompatibilities with new and untested peripherals and machines always mean new patches will be necessary. Better to have those updates for free, right?

    If I thought different, I would have assumed that your post was just a touch inflammatory... ;)
     
  24. br0adband macrumors 6502a

    br0adband

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    #24
    See, that's exactly what I'm referring to:

    Instead of saying "Ok, it's got bugs, I admit that" the effort was put forth to restate that obvious (that Leopard is a bit buggy to some degree; how much exactly, that's impossible to say) in this way:

    It's a twist on the fact that the .3 update resolved a lot of bugs, glitches, what have you. Looking over the list of actual things resolved in the .3 update, I see more "fixes" for software issues with Leopard itself - far more - than I do just simple compatibility resolution with hardware although there are a few tossed in (Time Machine works better with more external drives, some USB devices work better, etc).

    The statement quoted above is spinning the update(s) in a positive way, far more positive than I would ever dream of trying to spin it. They're bug fixes and updates, simple, and should be called as much.

    I'm not pointing a finger at Leopard and saying "You're crap and people should just admit it." What I'm saying is that OSX has its issues just like any other and it would be nice if the diehard Mac aficionados would sometimes just state the obvious instead of taking an almost politician's path and spinning it.

    And we all know what happens when people assume things, right? ;)

    Service Pack 1 for Vista wasn't put out just to add support for "new and untested peripherals" I assure you, and neither are the Leopard updates. It's a bug fix, plain and simple, with some additional support and compatibility resolutions, just as the Leopard updates are meant to do.
     
  25. cherry su macrumors 65816

    cherry su

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    #25
    When apps completely freeze on me I go "control-flower-power." it always works!
     

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