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Further, when you rip WMA tracks, they are DRMed by default. I've ripped a handful of CDs in WM9 and found out that they wouldn't play on any other system or portable device (unless they were loaded onto the device using WMP on that same system).
Hardly. Windows Media encoders default to DRM...

Windows Media Player 9? LOL. Windows Media Player 10 came out in 2004 so your arguement is coming up on 3 years out-of-date.
WMP10 and 11, as well as every other WM encoder (from Microsoft or otherwise) do not DRM tracks by default.

Actually, it doesn't once you add in Microsoft's DRM licensing fees, which your source cleverly avoids discussing.

1. The DRM license fees aren't required to use Windows Media because DRM isn't required to use Windows Media.
2. Why would you compare the price of DRMed WMA to unDRMed AAC? That doesn't make sense. It should be DRM file verse DRMed file and unDRMed file vs unDRMed file. Alas, Fairplay is the only major AAC-capable (now that Real uses WMA) and Apple doesn't sell it.
3. Microsoft doesn't charge DRM license fees because they don't sell the DRM. It's all done through third parties.

AAC has a maximum cost of $1 per player.

WMA has a flat cost of 10 cent per player.

There are no per-track licensing fees as with DRMed WMA.

Non-DRMed WMA has no per-track license fees either.

You should tell that to the dozens of major websites with audio tracks and video clips that simply won't play on a Mac because of WM10 encoding. Why is all the free content wrapped in Microsoft DRM? Why won't Microsoft allow Flip4Mac to play the DRMed stuff? I guess they don't really stand behind it.

THERE IS NO "WM10 ENCODING"! You're just trying to pass off WM-DRM as being the same as WMA/WMV... which woudl be like saying Fairplay AAC/MPEG-4 files are the same as non-DRMed AAC and MPEG-4 files. Why don't iTMS files play on Linux, or in Winamp, or in WMP? Or on the Xbox 360 (MS asked to license Fairplay for this) or on Sandisk players or on iRiver players, Creative players and on and on. See how easy it is to create a Red Herring? You should really stop doing it.

The point is that WMA is Microsoft-controlled and AAC is not controlled by a company which can manipulate the product to further its own goals.

LOL. Tin foil hat. Windows Media was created to further Microsoft's goals (i.e. to make money). I'm sure the voice insider your head is telling you that next week MS is going to make some radical change in Windows Media and all current products will no longer work, planes will fall out of the sky and such... but really that makes no sense considering it would massively affect Microsoft's bottom line.
AAC is controlled by Dolby (Via). Just like VC-1 and OOXML it is an ISO standard created largely by one company.

Only if your device and/or player are licensed to the latest version.

Bull. My software from 7 years ago still plays Windows Media 8. My old school Creative player (think 1999 or 2000) still plays WMA. FFDshow from years ago still plays Windows Media. My Mac running OS 9 still plays Windows Media.

Hell, the media player I built in my first college programming (4 years ago now) class still plays Windows Media.

Microsoft can roll out WM12 tomorrow and suddenly all the players on the market are broken if Microsoft chooses to make substantial alterations.

LOL. And Aliens could invade too.

They can decline to license third parties they don't like, effectively locking them out.

You mean like Apple declining Real, Sony, Napster, Yahoo, and Microsoft (for the Xbox 360)?

Disabling the auto-DRM on Windows XP. Perhaps this has been fixed in recent versions and/or in Windows Vista.

3 years ago.
 
Windows Media Player 9? LOL. Windows Media Player 10 came out in 2004 so your arguement is coming up on 3 years out-of-date.
WMP10 didn't magically undo the damage created by everything else. It's not like 2004 came (LATE 2004, by the way) and suddenly everyone had WMP10 and everything was peachy-keen again. People have posted about this problem right up through 2007. Four years of user content was unknowingly and unapprovedly DRMed by Microsoft.
2. Why would you compare the price of DRMed WMA to unDRMed AAC? That doesn't make sense. It should be DRM file verse DRMed file and unDRMed file vs unDRMed file.
Because we're talking about the availability of music in the marketplace. Nearly all the WMA stores use DRM. These AAC files from EMI are not DRMed. Therefore, you look at what is delivered to the customer.
WMA has a flat cost of 10 cent per player.
And we've already established that we're not talking about player licensing, which doesn't matter at all when buying music (the topic of the thread). The player has already been purchased. No one is crying because their music player wasn't 90 cents cheaper.
THERE IS NO "WM10 ENCODING"! You're just trying to pass off WM-DRM as being the same as WMA/WMV
No, I'm saying that you NEED WM10 to play most content. That is because lots of that content is DRMed in a way not supported by WMP9.
LOL. Tin foil hat. Windows Media was created to further Microsoft's goals (i.e. to make money).
Microsoft's goal is to control the marketplace, not just to make money. To that end, they have aggressively isolated competitors and repeatedly broken things in their APIs with new versions. It sounds like you're not too familiar with Microsoft's history with consumer choice. Being convicted of an illegal monopoly should be telling enough.
AAC is controlled by Dolby (Via). Just like VC-1 and OOXML it is an ISO standard created largely by one company.
But it is an ISO standard which requires a working group to revise and a comment period. Microsoft can change WMA whenever it wants. Again, the origin of the format is not important; who controls it IS.
Bull. My software from 7 years ago still plays Windows Media 8.
Uh huh. But does your software play DRMed files or WM9 content? No. Because Microsoft moved on.
My old school Creative player ...
Not WM9. Talk about red herrings.
You mean like Apple declining Real, Sony, Napster, Yahoo, and Microsoft (for the Xbox 360)?
No, more like Microsoft licensing to Real and then updating its version and refusing to license the new version or develop for a particular platform, after that licensee has already paid lots of money and developed a dependence on the Microsoft format. You know, sort of exactly what Microsoft did to its PlaysForSure customers when it brought out the Zune and locked them all out of it.
3 years ago.
Closer to two years ago, and that's availability and not widespread adoption. Or does content from 2001-2004 no longer exist today? That's like saying, well, all the DVDs bought for three years could explode at any time. But we don't sell them anymore (just the tens of millions that we made back then), so it's all fixed. Unlike real products, you can't recall original content made by users.
 
WMP10 didn't magically undo the damage created by everything else. It's not like 2004 came (LATE 2004, by the way) and suddenly everyone had WMP10 and everything was peachy-keen again.
1. The "damage" was as simple as a checkbox in the options tab.
2. WMP10 was a free update. It was readily available to anyone who had a problem with WMP9 or earlier.


People have posted about this problem right up through 2007. Four years of user content was unknowingly and unapprovedly DRMed by Microsoft.

People here maybe. People here still complain about Windows 98/ME, WMP9, Windows XP pre-SP1 etc. like it's somehow relevant to the present day. You are very guilty of this.

Because we're talking about the availability of music in the marketplace. Nearly all the WMA stores use DRM. These AAC files from EMI are not DRMed. Therefore, you look at what is delivered to the customer.

Nice red herring. First check my original post and the issue I was dealing with. In no way was I limiting "AAC files" to "AAC files from EMI". Second, the claim that AAC is cheaper with or without DRM than WMA with or without DRM is plainly false. I have provided several resources to show this. Third, the idea of comparing what "is delivered to the customer" is stupid as the cost of the codec clearly isn't changing anything (as far as pricing) that the customer sees or deals with. Fourth, if "Nearly all WMA stores use DRM" (clearly not all WMA files are drmed) then it would only be proper to make the same distinction for AAC files, which also "Nearly all use DRM".

And we've already established that we're not talking about player licensing, which doesn't matter at all when buying music (the topic of the thread). The player has already been purchased. No one is crying because their music player wasn't 90 cents cheaper.

Great! Then we can agree that neither AAC nor WMA have any license costs per track. That much is contrary to the lies spread in this thread.

But it is an ISO standard which requires a working group to revise and a comment period. Microsoft can change WMA whenever it wants. Again, the origin of the format is not important; who controls it IS.
False. Dolby (and others) have changed AAC at their own discretion too. That's how MPEG-4 SLS, HE-AACv2, and HE-AACv1 came about. Apple even took it upon themselves to create another modified version of ISO MPEG-4 audio called Apple Lossless.

Uh huh. But does your software play DRMed files or WM9 content? No. Because Microsoft moved on.

Red herring. You said, Microsoft could/would come out with a new version and everything would stop working. I said WM7/8/9 still work. You said only if it is licensed to the current version. Obviously this is untrue because my media player still plays the exact same media it was designed to play the day it was built even though Microsoft has "moved on".
Does QT6 play H.264 or new iTMovie Store content? No. because Apple moved on.

I don't see anything different between how Microsoft handled the situation and how Apple or anyone handled it except for the fact that your Tin Foil hat stops you from acceptiing the truth.

No, more like Microsoft licensing to Real and then updating its version and refusing to license the new version
New version of what? You do know that Real uses the very latest in Windows Media codecs and DRM, right?

develop for a particular platform, after that licensee has already paid lots of money and developed a dependence on the Microsoft format. You know, sort of exactly what Microsoft did to its PlaysForSure customers when it brought out the Zune and locked them all out of it.

BS. Microsoft still actively develops and supports Playsforsure. In fact, Vista ships with Windows Media Player (playsforsure not Zune) and Urge (playsforsure) as the default. I'm sure in your fantasy world Playsforsure stopped working the day the Zune was released but in reality that's not true in the least bit.

Hell, since launching the Zune, MS has picked up several major new partners. Specifically, Netflix, Showtime, Walmart (video), Blockbuster, and the BBC. Maybe you should write them all an email an explain to them how Microsoft is no longer developing for Playsforsure.
 
1. The "damage" was as simple as a checkbox in the options tab.
First you had to figure out that you needed to go there. How would you know your content was DRMed without your permission? How would you suggest remastering original content without the raw source footage still available? WMP10 did not undo anything previously encoded, and did not change the DRM default option. See http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/knowledgecenter/mediaadvice/0090.mspx#EAD.
People here maybe. People here still complain about Windows 98/ME, WMP9, Windows XP pre-SP1 etc. like it's somehow relevant to the present day. You are very guilty of this.
Again, please tell me how users are supposed to get their 3-5 years of content back after media player DRMed it. It's still relevant, just as Windows XP is still relevant over five years later.
Second, the claim that AAC is cheaper with or without DRM than WMA with or without DRM is plainly false. I have provided several resources to show this.
You're talking about device licensing, which is wholly unimportant. AAC in any form is cheaper than DRMed WMA. DRM-free WMA is a moot point--where can you buy it? This thread is about online music marketplaces. Yes, WMA's one-time *hardware* license cost is a maximum of 90 cents cheaper than AAC, if both the encoder and decoder is licensed. Tell me the last time someone had a problem with a player being less than one dollar overpriced. You're 100% correct that 10 cents is less than a maximum of $1 (but portable players don't do encoding; so a Zune, for example, only costs a maximum of 50 cents to license). A one-time higher price of 40 cents certainly beats a fee per track, no matter how low the per-track free might be.
Fourth, if "Nearly all WMA stores use DRM" [...] then it would only be proper to make the same distinction for AAC files, which also "Nearly all use DRM".
Yes, absolutely. Let's set that standard. Now, DRMed AAC files do not incur a per-track cost like MP3 (with or without DRM) or DRMed WMA. So you come out on top with iTunes and an AAC player over any of the other legitimate and non-subscription based online stores. Painfully simple, really.
False. Dolby (and others) have changed AAC at their own discretion too. That's how MPEG-4 SLS, HE-AACv2, and HE-AACv1 came about. Apple even took it upon themselves to create another modified version of ISO MPEG-4 audio called Apple Lossless.
You're still tilting at windmills. It's not new versions that are the problem, it's the anticompetitive use of those new versions to break support for former Microsoft "partners." Creating your own derivative for your own uses, as in those cases, are not used to control the market via a proprietary format. Sony's ATRAC, for example, is perfectly acceptable, because they created it for their own purposes (and I hate Sony far more than Microsoft as a company).
You said, Microsoft could/would come out with a new version and everything would stop working. I said WM7/8/9 still work. You said only if it is licensed to the current version.
Wrong. Reread the post.
I don't see anything different between how Microsoft handled the situation and how Apple or anyone handled it except for the fact that your Tin Foil hat stops you from acceptiing the truth.
The difference is that Microsoft has withheld new version support from certain vendors in the past on its products or intentionally changed things to make other companies look bad.
New version of what? You do know that Real uses the very latest in Windows Media codecs and DRM, right?
It was hypothetical, just like your statement it responded to.
BS. Microsoft still actively develops and supports Playsforsure.
I didn't say they didn't. They themselves abandoned it for their own player and locked out all other vendors from selling music for their Zune. Why would they do that? Why would they build partnerships only to snub them when they entered the market? Because it's Microsoft.
Hell, since launching the Zune, MS has picked up several major new partners. Specifically, Netflix, Showtime, Walmart (video), Blockbuster, and the BBC. Maybe you should write them all an email an explain to them how Microsoft is no longer developing for Playsforsure.
None of which are compatible with the Zune or the Zune marketplace (URGE), and none of which are exclusive deals. What happens to PlaysforShit doesn't matter at this point because Microsoft is clearly setting up its successor in the Zune.

Look, you're not even responding to the points made, and you've continued to gloss over the actual problems and Microsoft's proven anticompetitive track record. WMA is technically inferior to AAC to boot. AAC is an open standard; WMA is not. It's really not that hard. WMA, in the form it is offered to consumers in online music stores (i.e. with DRM), is more expensive than AAC because it incurs a per-track fee due to the DRM; AAC, with or without DRM, does not charge per-track fees.
 
1. The "damage" was as simple as a checkbox in the options tab.
2. WMP10 was a free update. It was readily available to anyone who had a problem with WMP9 or earlier.

Up until a few months ago I was a windows and linux user. I work with Linux professionally and am resident tech support for my entire family ( mostly windows ... ick ).

I had no idea that WMP9 DRM's personal encodings and I have steadfastly REFUSED to update WMP since they came out with that monstrosity WMP8 that was forced upon us with XP. WMP9 was another FORCED upgrade thanks to SP2. They reached their peak with WMP6.4 and everything else since then has been downhill.

And for the record WMP10 is a FORCED upgrade for Media Center edition and 11 is a FORCED upgrade for Vista. You can not back down from those releases to an earlier version even if you wanted to. Each one adds new DRM functionality that only serves to enhance MS and other companies at your expense.

I quickly abandoned the MS media framework for CCCP with Media Player Classic. I never looked back. I hear that 3rd party media players are actually much faster under Vista thanks to MS DRM bogging down WMP11.

Zune is the perfect example of why MS DRM sucks the big one. Had I actually used WMP9 my .wma'a wouldn't work on my Zune without re-encoding them down to another format. All of the money/time spent using PlaysForSure ( not ) media downloads would be wasted and they are cannibalizing their own market for this! They cultivated this DRM laden market of PlaysForSure and then stabbed all of their partners in the back with the Zune.

Go find a first gen iPod and sync it with iTunes 7 with the latest EMI tracks.... I bet it would work! This is why Apple is winning this battle with one hand behind it's back.
 
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