Being totally objective here on AW vs Garmin...

[solq]

You're not really comparing similar things in this way. You're expecting the Apple Watch to be able to natively stop/start/save to a device that it didn't make. Can't expect that. If Polar makes the Polar watch app in such a way that it can stop/start/save data from the H10, sure I can see that.

Well for me the experience is the important thing, not the device. I don't really care how it's done as long as it is done in the best way possible. I will change the device as soon as there's a better experience somewhere else. I'm sorry to say that I have almost no brand loyalty, perhaps with the exception of cars.

The best experience possible means minimal fuss and maximum output. Once people start with "but you can subscribe to app X and it does the same thing" or "but you can import the data from X to Y" I just lose interest. That's not a good experience for me. I don't want to spend my time doing that.

It's very important to get one good health/fitness app, not several, get everything in there with minimum tracking effort, get as much data and interpretation out of it. That's it. Otherwise I don't bother, it's not worth it.

To give you another example: I like to do sleep tracking especially as it integrates into the training readiness situation. I could not do sleep tracking with an Apple Watch. If I have to take it off in the evening to charge it, you can bet your house that I will fall asleep with the watch in the charger and remember it the next morning. It's a non-feature as far as I'm concerned.

 

[msackey]

Well for me the experience is the important thing, not the device. I don't really care how it's done as long as it is done in the best way possible. I will change the device as soon as there's a better experience somewhere else. I'm sorry to say that I have almost no brand loyalty, perhaps with the exception of cars.

The best experience possible means minimal fuss and maximum output. Once people start with "but you can subscribe to app X and it does the same thing" or "but you can import the data from X to Y" I just lose interest. That's not a good experience for me. I don't want to spend my time doing that.

It's very important to get one good health/fitness app, not several, get everything in there with minimum tracking effort, get as much data and interpretation out of it. That's it. Otherwise I don't bother, it's not worth it.

To give you another example: I like to do sleep tracking especially as it integrates into the training readiness situation. I could not do sleep tracking with an Apple Watch. If I have to take it off in the evening to charge it, you can bet your house that I will fall asleep with the watch in the charger and remember it the next morning. It's a non-feature as far as I'm concerned.

Sure. Then the Apple Watch isn't for you. It's fine.

But you seem frustrated. Why? Just don't use Apple Watch then or Apple ecosystem.

 

[solq]

Sure. Then the Apple Watch isn't for you. It's fine.

But you seem frustrated. Why? Just don't use Apple Watch then or Apple ecosystem.

I'm not frustrated at all

This is a conversation, I don't expect to "win" the argument or convert anyone. We exchange experiences. I am listening to what you and others are saying, it's fairly interesting to see other people's points of view.

 

[msackey]

I'm not frustrated at all

This is a conversation, I don't expect to "win" the argument or convert anyone. We exchange experiences. I am listening to what you and others are saying, it's fairly interesting to see other people's points of view.

I see.

A main reason I moved away from Garmin was because it didn't capture or integrate with the other parts of my system (iPhone, for example) well. Yes, for sports activity (my main one is running) it did that just fine, but it didn't track other things. At the same time, I wasn't willing to upgrade to another Garmin model so it would track additionally daily activities. I don't find the Garmin ecosystem to be good for tracking overall activities beyond specific ones like sports and whatnot. Now, that was back in 2018 when I made that change.

For sports activities that I do, the Series 4 was good enough. I was by that time no longer a competitive runner and also did not regularly train on an athletic track. The Series 4 would absolutely frustrate me to use with interval workouts on a track because it does not have a non-touch screen way to record segments. But I didn't do much interval workouts. Overall, the Apple Watch and iPhone experience was a much better way to integrate sports and daily activity tracking for me, than trying to use the Garmin ecosystem to do both.

Given the way Apple encourages 3rd party apps, I don't think all of the fitness abilities will be natively done by Apple. Or maybe it will when Apple decides to move further into the sports realm like it seems to a bit more with the Apple Watch Ultra. (But then think about how the Oceanic app that makes the Ultra into a "dive computer" is actually not an Apple app but one made by a third party, so not sure that Apple wants me make all fitness stuff native.)

Anyhow, I've since upgraded to the Ultra and love having that simple ability of a button to record segments and I've started to do some interval workouts again for fun. I'm looking forward to the track detection feature which I hope Apple launches by the end of this year.

 

[solq]

I see.

A main reason I moved away from Garmin was because it didn't capture or integrate with the other parts of my system (iPhone, for example) well. Yes, for sports activity (my main one is running) it did that just fine, but it didn't track other things. At the same time, I wasn't willing to upgrade to another Garmin model so it would track additionally daily activities. I don't find the Garmin ecosystem to be good for tracking overall activities beyond specific ones like sports and whatnot. Now, that was back in 2018 when I made that change.

For sports activities that I do, the Series 4 was good enough. I was by that time no longer a competitive runner and also did not regularly train on an athletic track. The Series 4 would absolutely frustrate me to use with interval workouts on a track because it does not have a non-touch screen way to record segments. But I didn't do much interval workouts. Overall, the Apple Watch and iPhone experience was a much better way to integrate sports and daily activity tracking for me, than trying to use the Garmin ecosystem to do both.

Given the way Apple encourages 3rd party apps, I don't think all of the fitness abilities will be natively done by Apple. Or maybe it will when Apple decides to move further into the sports realm like it seems to a bit more with the Apple Watch Ultra. (But then think about how the Oceanic app that makes the Ultra into a "dive computer" is actually not an Apple app but one made by a third party, so not sure that Apple wants me make all fitness stuff native.)

Anyhow, I've since upgraded to the Ultra and love having that simple ability of a button to record segments and I've started to do some interval workouts again for fun. I'm looking forward to the track detection feature which I hope Apple launches by the end of this year.

I don't run but I think it's very easy on Garmins to record "segments". My Epix has a "Lap" button which will segment when pressed during the workout. I don't use it because I do crossfit, martial arts, hiking and swimming (*), but it's pretty easy.

My observation so far is that most of the people who mostly run and track their running seem happy with Apple.

(*) swimming is definitely the weak spot with the Epix. It does almost nothing useful but then again, I don't wear the chest strap in the pool and I understand that optical HR sensors and water don't mix.

 

[msackey]

I don't run but I think it's very easy on Garmins to record "segments". My Epix has a "Lap" button which will segment when pressed during the workout. I don't use it because I do crossfit, martial arts, hiking and swimming (*), but it's pretty easy.

My observation so far is that most of the people who mostly run and track their running seem happy with Apple.

(*) swimming is definitely the weak spot with the Epix. It does almost nothing useful but then again, I don't wear the chest strap in the pool and I understand that optical HR sensors and water don't mix.

Oh for almost all sports watch, it is totally easy to record segments (what we used to call laps! ). It's not like a new design issue. Timekeepers WAY before Apple Watch had a button to record segments/laps/intervals.

All of the Apple Watches except the Ultra require that you double tap the touchscreen to record segments. This is not a good way because when you're running hard, the jiggling hands will not be able to touch the screen in a way that the touchscreen would accurately interpret as double tab; it may sometimes register it as a swipe as has often been the case for me.

Physical buttons are sometimes a good thing; not non-tactile touchscreens. Totally an aside, but this is the same for these new EV cars. My spouse often remarks how such-and-such EV car has a dumb interior design where almost all controls are done touchscreen thus requiring you to look at the screen (eyes off the road!!) to make an input. Dumb.

 

[sarc]

I have used the Fenix 7x and the ultra and I’ve settled on the ultra.
For me it came down to the fact that I run at most 2 hours a day most days. The rest of the time I want a watch that can response to messages, take calls, use HomeKit and install apps that I find useful (like Lumy). For me that’s the ultra for others that might not be the case.

 

[DontGetTheCheese]

Intervals used to be notorious on the Apple Watch. I had to buy an app, forget which one, and it would chop the music, cause other problems, etc. WorkOutDoors manages intervals pretty well.

Garmin, on the other has the most confusing Interval UI I've ever seen. I think every time I set up something by heart rate I did it backwards. I can still be torn by both but I'm pretty stable on the Ultra at the moment.

 

[Isamilis]

I really hope, Garmin can still focus on what they’re best at (good is always enemy of best). I like Garmin for its comprehensive metric and battery life. Recently I switched from Venu2 to Instinct 2 mainly for battery and better sensor.

 

[theotherphil]

to be fair, neither Apple nor Garmin detect daytime naps.

My AWU correctly detected my nap this afternoon:

 

[msackey]

I really hope, Garmin can still focus on what they’re best at (good is always enemy of best). I like Garmin for its comprehensive metric and battery life. Recently I switched from Venu2 to Instinct 2 mainly for battery and better sensor.

I’ve not heard of the phrase “good is always enemy of best”. The phrase i know is “perfection is the enemy of good”. How curious

 

[PatrickNSF]

I don't need my watch to compose and send text messages. The phone is always going to be faster, more accurate and more pleasant at this activity. This is not an appropriate activity for a wearable device.

This is one of the best uses of the AW (for me), and why I’ve been wearing an AW as a daily driver even though I prefer my Garmin(s) for running and other workouts.

Siri works nearly perfectly for me using the watch. I respond to messages, add reminders, make calendar events and control lights/outlets all from the watch. I find it much more convenient doing these things with the watch vs digging out my phone…or trying to remember where I left it in the house.

 

[zerozoneice]

(*) swimming is definitely the weak spot with the Epix. It does almost nothing useful but then again, I don't wear the chest strap in the pool and I understand that optical HR sensors and water don't mix.

Works fine for me, pool swimming that is. Never did open water, so no idea how it behaves there.
Records time, distance, intervals, avg. pace, active calories, swolf, pace, HR, strokes, avg.stroke rate, avg speed, max speed, total time, moving time, elapsed time, avgHR, maxHR, intensity minutes, HR zones, training effect (aerobic in case of swimming), exercise load.....damn, dunno about you but that's good enough for me

incidentally, i did a comprehensive side-by-side-by-side (yeah, 3 way) couple of years ago with an AW3, Huawei Watch GT2 and Garmin Vivoactive 4 and they were pretty much neck in neck regarding HR during swimming.

Huawei was closest to AW in terms of overall HR sensor over several days, but Garmin had a pretty average sensor back then compared to much improved v4 nowadays on Venu2/Epix2/Fenix7. Gaps are now almost non-existent.

My conclusion at the time (as iOS user):
- AW best smartwatch, best native iOS experience, chaotic native health/fitness ecosystem, best app ecosystem, disgusting battery
- Huawei solid health tracker disguised as a watch, inexistent app ecosystem, insane battery, very good native app for health/fitness/watch settings (and wasn't using the Android version which was better, iOS version less features)
- Garmin jack of all trades, average smartwatch, good battery, most complete/detailed native app, weird/crap app ecosystem

 

[solq]

Works fine for me, pool swimming that is. Never did open water, so no idea how it behaves there.
Records time, distance, intervals, avg. pace, active calories, swolf, pace, HR, strokes, avg.stroke rate, avg speed, max speed, total time, moving time, elapsed time, avgHR, maxHR, intensity minutes, HR zones, training effect (aerobic in case of swimming), exercise load.....damn, dunno about you but that's good enough for me

I hear you but for example I just get an average speed of 0, always (pool swimming). Interestingly the maximum is not zero, so I have no idea of the math behind it. I hope it doesn’t need GPS to compute it 🤣

 

[Zelegorm]

This is one of the best uses of the AW (for me), and why I’ve been wearing an AW as a daily driver even though I prefer my Garmin(s) for running and other workouts.

Siri works nearly perfectly for me using the watch. I respond to messages, add reminders, make calendar events and control lights/outlets all from the watch. I find it much more convenient doing these things with the watch vs digging out my phone…or trying to remember where I left it in the house.

It's the best smartwatch out there. The problem here is: It's also a very good training watch. Dual frequency GPS, best wrist based heart rate. Best sensors. I see no reason to put on a Garmin anymore. I am loading once a day. Mostly with 75% battery left even when I do workouts I was never below 50% at the end of the day.
I can leave my phone at home. I have LTE on my wrist. I have ApplePay (shame on Garmin. Such a joke Garmin pay)
Workoutdoors would be even a reason to not go back to Garmin because it's so flexible. Much more than my Garmin ever was.

In the end: No need for this bulky ugly Garmin watch.

 

[NME42]

In the end: No need for this bulky ugly Garmin watch.

Same here. And I still think Garmin is producing quite okayish products but somehow lost track. Everything apart from sports functionality (e.g. music, maps, cellular functionality, payment, smartphone integration) is only mediocre at best. And the platform per se is too buggy for me.

Also, according to their just published financial results, their Sports business is declining (YoY quarters -18%, YTD revenue -27%). Their outdoor business is increasing only slowly.
I see no bright future for Garmin, they simply lack the capability to innovate and also have a very big and not understandable portfolio of products they struggle to support.

 

[zerozoneice]

I hear you but for example I just get an average speed of 0, always (pool swimming). Interestingly the maximum is not zero, so I have no idea of the math behind it. I hope it doesn’t need GPS to compute it 🤣

probably some Connect mobile app issue to display the recorded data, should be fixed eventually.
AFAIK GPS is not used for indoor swimming (pool swimming profile).

 

[PatrickNSF]

The Apple Watch is nice but it is work around after work around after work around with it…

Bailed on the Ultra and went back to my Garmin 955/AW 6 and 7 combo. As good as the sensors are with the Ultra, the Garmin 955 works better for me for running and marathon training. Maybe next year…

 

[msackey]

Bailed on the Ultra and went back to my Garmin 955/AW 6 and 7 combo. As good as the sensors are with the Ultra, the Garmin 955 works better for me for running and marathon training. Maybe next year…

To be sure, I think Garmins come together more ready as a package for runners who want easy access to data and interpretation. The Apple Watch (Ultra or otherwise) is not as ready natively, but with the supplement of external 3rd party tools (apps or desktop applications) it is fine.

 

[trumptman]

Thanks for your reply, I know all about the Garmin ecosystem having been in it since the first Fenix in 2012 and owning the following models: Fenix, Tactix, Fenix 3 Sapphire, Fenix 3HR, Fenix 5, 5Plus, Marq Adventurer, 6 Pro Solar, Tactix Delta and Epix 2. I've dealt with multiple issues with Optical HR across all of those devices on pretty much every firmware (and have been an active Beta and Alpha participant for the lifetime of those programs). I can say with some certainty and experience that Garmin has issues with the OHR on every device which pretty much mandates the use of a Chest Strap to record data consistently and accurately. This is also reflected in Garmin's support forums with many users tracking the same issues and acknowledgement from the Garmin Support team.

This has some profound implications when using the device to track recovery and all day metrics such as body battery, training readiness and stress. As they say, garbage in = garbage out. If your OHR is not recording data accurately in the first place, you absolutely cannot rely on any of the health and wellness data that is presented to you in the app - as pretty as that is.

I get it, you have a lot invested in the Garmin ecosystem - as did I. It's natural to want to defend your choices because of this expense. But here we are, 10 years after the release of the original Fenix and we are still having issues with the Garmin OHR accuracy. Yes, I'll admit that the Epix 2 gives better readings than those devices that came before it, but it's still nowhere near the accuracy of the Apple OHR.

So it comes down to this....acknowledge that you have a nice device with lots of features but just know that to get the most accurate training/ recovery metrics you will need a chest strap, and understanding that your all day metrics are based on data that is inherently wrong 20-40% of the time.

The other option is moving to Apple who may not have the most complete all-in-one package, but the recorded data is accurate >99% of the time. A selection of free/ low cost apps can pull that data and present it in a much more meaningful way than even Garmin connect.

As I said, enjoy your purchase, the Epix 2 is a great watch.

I've owned a lot of Garmin and Apple stuff with regard to watches. I've owned Garmin since the Fenix 3HR and have used Apple Watch 4 and 5 as they are the "leftovers" when other family members upgraded.

I've watched the same videos from the Quantified Scientist you have as well. Apple Watches went from "swishy" GPS to more accurate GPS with changes in software as an example. Apple applied this back to older watches but the point was with a simple change in software their accuracy dramatically changed. Apple went from non-existent sleep tracking to quite good sleep tracking all with software updates.

Garmin has very decent wrist based HR for me. However I do not use the stock bands. I have found the equivalent "sport loops" for those watches and use them. When I use the stock bands I'm in between and can only go too tight or too loose.

Garmin's major watches can often be heavier. You can opt for like the Fenix 7s or so on but many people just want it all and buy the bigger variations.

I mention this because when the Quantified Scientist did his video with the Ultra he encountered some accuracy issues with HR. Of course the Ultra is a heavier watch and the bands that Apple have chosen to sell it with often features more complicated mechanisms to fasten them and they do not allow micro-adjusments. The result was that he saw more inaccuracy with the HR.

I'd love to see him do a comparison with Garmin watches and sport loop type bands. I use them and the accuracy is dead on for me.

Even if this is less accurate or features a slight bit of lag, most people would be completely happy with this time of graph. Honestly when I look at the later parts of his video where it seems like the watch is 30-40 bpm off, I never get results like that at all. If were getting a result like that I'd check my fit, not blame the watch.

 

[bwl2006]

What is better on the Garmin for training in your opinion @PatrickNSF ?

 

[Zelegorm]

I've owned a lot of Garmin and Apple stuff with regard to watches. I've owned Garmin since the Fenix 3HR and have used Apple Watch 4 and 5 as they are the "leftovers" when other family members upgraded.

I've watched the same videos from the Quantified Scientist you have as well. Apple Watches went from "swishy" GPS to more accurate GPS with changes in software as an example. Apple applied this back to older watches but the point was with a simple change in software their accuracy dramatically changed. Apple went from non-existent sleep tracking to quite good sleep tracking all with software updates.

Garmin has very decent wrist based HR for me. However I do not use the stock bands. I have found the equivalent "sport loops" for those watches and use them. When I use the stock bands I'm in between and can only go too tight or too loose.

Garmin's major watches can often be heavier. You can opt for like the Fenix 7s or so on but many people just want it all and buy the bigger variations.

I mention this because when the Quantified Scientist did his video with the Ultra he encountered some accuracy issues with HR. Of course the Ultra is a heavier watch and the bands that Apple have chosen to sell it with often features more complicated mechanisms to fasten them and they do not allow micro-adjusments. The result was that he saw more inaccuracy with the HR.

I'd love to see him do a comparison with Garmin watches and sport loop type bands. I use them and the accuracy is dead on for me.

View attachment 2105352

Even if this is less accurate or features a slight bit of lag, most people would be completely happy with this time of graph. Honestly when I look at the later parts of his video where it seems like the watch is 30-40 bpm off, I never get results like that at all. If were getting a result like that I'd check my fit, not blame the watch.

Wrist based heart rate can never be perfect. But It's usually a very good result. Especially when comparing to a Garmin device. On a Garmin it is a must to wear a chest strap. On a Apple Watch Ultra it's a could (to improve)

 

[solq]

Wrist based heart rate can never be perfect. But It's usually a very good result. Especially when comparing to a Garmin device. On a Garmin it is a must to wear a chest strap. On a Apple Watch Ultra it's a could (to improve)

I train with or without the chest strap and the results are extremely similar. Average HR, peak HR are always at the point where I expect them.

Somebody mentioned bugs as well, on Garmin. This has not been my experience at all. In fact since the Vivosmart, which initially had a small bug related to removing it from the charger (fixed now), I cannot recall a single bug throughout my time with Forerunner/Venu/Epix.

In fact I’d say Garmin offers a very stable, predictable and uncomplicated experience.

 

[Zelegorm]

See my experience is a very different one:
In fact I’d say Garmin offers a very unstable, unpredictable and complicated experience.

 

[solq]

See my experience is a very different one:
In fact I’d say Garmin offers a very unstable, unpredictable and complicated experience.

Given that you don't actually give data or examples, I think it's purely subjective partisanship.

Just like I don't like the Apple Watch because I don't like anything about it, including the way straps are changed, which Garmin does better. I hate its ugly, effeminate, square look and I find the software experience infuriating, time wasting, useless garbage.