Belkin Puts HomeKit Compatibility Plans for WeMo Product Line 'On Hold'

[shareef777]

Must be newer than what we have at home. My dad and I had to deal with what felt like 1970s hardware to reprogram the lights. I was sending commands over RS-232, and the server couldn't hold more than a ~128KB program file, a limit that we could barely skirt. Definitely the sketchiest computer project I've undertaken.

I've seen newer systems, and they're better but not nearly as good as they should be, given the state of technology today. Was hoping Apple would revolutionize it, but there's nothing yet.

I'm using their Caseta system. Literally, plug in the base, wait for it to boot and get an IP via DHCP. Once that's done you open the app and point the camera to the HomeKit ID at the bottom of the hub and voila, you're done. As far as adding/configuring devices, you just use the app and hold one button on the device you want to add. Scenes/schedules/etc are all configured via the app which is extremely customizable, IMHO.

 

[Ed217]

Yes, an end user can set up Apple-based HA in a minute or two, or just by following simple instructions in under 5 minutes.

Lets take my home for an example. It has about 14 light controllers, a few on/off controllers for specialized uses, a keypad door lock (with HA control), and 5 different motion sensors that can control lights and provide text alerts to my phone in selected cases. Most of the light controls are module based, but a few are wall switch based (which requires turning off the breaker for installation). All the motion sensors, which were battery operated when bought, have been converted to A/C power to avoid problems when batteries wear out. Then during the Holiday season there are maybe a dozen other light controllers added and a few more on/off controls. Some are indoors and some outdoors (where moisture is a issue to be handled).

All the lights are on schedules, which may differ by room and area based on normal use. Some are on a sunset/sunrise basis and others on a fixed schedule. Some are on a sunset adjusted schedule (sunset minus 45 minutes for example).

The motion sensors are a real plus as they can control lights to lower use areas. Many of these are time of day related . Kitchen lights come on and go off automatically during evening hours, but not at all during lighted daytime. Lights in stairs always come on and then go off automatically (the auto off is different during late night as opposed to early evening). Lights in a reading room near the bedroom only come on automatically in the early hours of the evening, but not late at night. Porch lights come on at night any time anyone approaches the door.

My home is not large. A large home would have more of everything. 5 minutes is a drop in the bucket.

 

[RogerWilco]

I'm using their Caseta system. Literally, plug in the base, wait for it to boot and get an IP via DHCP. Once that's done you open the app and point the camera to the HomeKit ID at the bottom of the hub and voila, you're done. As far as adding/configuring devices, you just use the app and hold one button on the device you want to add. Scenes/schedules/etc are all configured via the app which is extremely customizable, IMHO.

It all sounds wonderful until users move beyond the basic setups. Scenes with multiple devices create dependencies, sometimes circular, and these gadgets aren't smart enough to deal with them reliably. It requires a hub or other connected device to catalog and troubleshoot the links and allow end users to view the entire system map. At this point my guess is 95% of users will say to heck with it, and I don't blame them.

Then there is the issue of hardware reliability and firmware. I've used various X10 and insteon modules for twenty years and can state that they have nowhere near the reliability of their traditional counterparts. Lightning strikes, power company-induced surges, cheap capacitors, all have caused hardware failures in my setups.

The replacement modules invariably run different firmware and I've encountered situations were previously reliable scenes no longer function until every device is reset and scrubbed of stored links and dependencies. Talk about a PITA...especially when some of the modules are located inside cabinets and above ceilings.

 

[tdar]

I can't believe the commentators actually encourage Apple to lower the security requirement for HOME products.

I encourage Apple to do what it takes to make Homekit a success. If that requires a lowering of security to the same level as the competition so existing products can be used : so be it.

Or one can stay where they are and fail- then it won't matter.

 

[Ed217]

Then there is the issue of hardware reliability and firmware. I've used various X10 and insteon modules for twenty years and can state that they have nowhere near the reliability of their traditional counterparts.

Since going from X10 to Insteon dual band components, reliability has been much much better. Its not 100%, but it more than good enough. I suspect other brands also have better products today as well.
[doublepost=1459783814][/doublepost]

I encourage Apple to do what it takes to make Homekit a success. If that requires a lowering of security to the same level as the competition so existing products can be used : so be it.

Or one can stay where they are and fail- then it won't matter.

While I cant speak for other brands, HomeKit has limitations that go beyond security considerations for Insteon products.

First is that none of the existing hubs in service will work with HomeKit, it requires a new model (which was delayed for months in shipping and has some less than positive reviews for the few that got them). Second is that most sensors wont work at all with HomeKit and the new hub. While that may change, its a show stopper for many right up front.

Next the lack of any software interface to the new hub to allow for adaption of existing third party software apps. Going through HomeKit is MUCH MUCH different than those approaches supported before for all past hub products. Its also not possible to configure any aspect of the hub from a PC browser.

Then there is the lack of text alerts that previous hubs could do, and the same lack for any existing third party apps that handle such alerts internally based on sensor inputs (which arnt supported).

While Siri is a great aspect of HomeKit, Siri's track record for recognizing anything longer than 2-3 words is less than stellar.

It will be curious to see how the Amazon Echo does in the coming months, as it seems more open to other hardware, apps, and features. Time will tell how it all flushes out.

 

[shareef777]

It all sounds wonderful until users move beyond the basic setups. Scenes with multiple devices create dependencies, sometimes circular, and these gadgets aren't smart enough to deal with them reliably. It requires a hub or other connected device to catalog and troubleshoot the links and allow end users to view the entire system map. At this point my guess is 95% of users will say to heck with it, and I don't blame them.

Then there is the issue of hardware reliability and firmware. I've used various X10 and insteon modules for twenty years and can state that they have nowhere near the reliability of their traditional counterparts. Lightning strikes, power company-induced surges, cheap capacitors, all have caused hardware failures in my setups.

The replacement modules invariably run different firmware and I've encountered situations were previously reliable scenes no longer function until every device is reset and scrubbed of stored links and dependencies. Talk about a PITA...especially when some of the modules are located inside cabinets and above ceilings.

That's inherent in every piece of technology. To this day I have to turn off/on the bluetooth on my iPhone (iPhone 6+ previously, and iPhone 6s currently) to get it to pair with my Apple Watch every morning. It'd stay fine until the next morning where somehow overnight while the watch is charging it'd inexplicably lose connection to my phone.

Now this is for only two devices manufactured by the same company. I'd cut these other companies that have to deal with their various devices working for both Apple and Google devices some slack.

 

[sudo1996]

I'm using their Caseta system. Literally, plug in the base, wait for it to boot and get an IP via DHCP. Once that's done you open the app and point the camera to the HomeKit ID at the bottom of the hub and voila, you're done. As far as adding/configuring devices, you just use the app and hold one button on the device you want to add. Scenes/schedules/etc are all configured via the app which is extremely customizable, IMHO.

Hmm, that sounds really nice. It's almost what I want. But I was imagining something where Apple, Google, IEEE, or someone else create a standard that everyone follows. Apple would make the whole UX, integrating it with iOS. Lutron and others would only make the hardware to conform to the standard. It's nicer to have a uniform way of interacting with home equipment. Oh well, that's very unlikely to happen.

 

[WilliamG]

A 2 minute setup is beyond impossible. Its not an iOS thing, but a gear thing. Just plugging in adapters in lights takes a while, after they decide which to cover (most never cover them all). And even thats after they have figured out how many to buy, where to get them, and opening the packages. Its a process that takes some bit of time.

Then there is the software part. Scenes, rooms, schedules, and how they actually operate it. It takes some time. Thats after they figure out what app to download and which buttons do what. Then later that day they call their buddy who put them on to HA and say "I hooked it all up and the lights dont come on. You ask if they manually turned the light off, and they say...WHAT, you mean I cant turn a light off with the switch any more..." Its a learning experience that takes time...and patience.

Going from zero to a full HA setup for someone who have never even heard of the concept is along the lines of someone, who has never seen a smartphone, going from a corded land line to an iPhone...expect its more involved. Dont get me wrong, HA is a thing that is happening and will affect most homes after some time. But its a slow process and education and learning take a LOT longer than 2 minutes.

To be fair, installing a light switch is simple, simple, simple. One needs to have a light switch installed, so that's a given. It's after that that I consider the setup process. It takes LITERALLY 2 minutes. You have the app installed, you put in your username/password, and scan the hub. That's it. Then adding each light switch is a 20 second procedure. Hold down the Off button on the switch, for about 5 seconds, - and then name it. Done. Literally anyone can do it.

I also didn't understand this part:

"I hooked it all up and the lights dont come on. You ask if they manually turned the light off, and they say...WHAT, you mean I cant turn a light off with the switch any more..." Its a learning experience that takes time...and patience."

Manually turning the lights on or off is instantly reflected in the app, so.. uh... not sure what you're talking about there....

 

[Ed217]

To be fair, installing a light switch is simple, simple, simple. One needs to have a light switch installed, so that's a given. It's after that that I consider the setup process. It takes LITERALLY 2 minutes. You have the app installed, you put in your username/password, and scan the hub. That's it. Then adding each light switch is a 20 second procedure. Hold down the Off button on the switch, for about 5 seconds, - and then name it. Done. Literally anyone can do it.

I also didn't understand this part:

"I hooked it all up and the lights dont come on. You ask if they manually turned the light off, and they say...WHAT, you mean I cant turn a light off with the switch any more..." Its a learning experience that takes time...and patience."

Manually turning the lights on or off is instantly reflected in the app, so.. uh... not sure what you're talking about there....

Nope. Install and setup involves all the steps, not just the easy ones you references. The average consumer starts from zero, so they have to learn every single part at they go. Unless they have a local geek who is holding their hand through the entire process, they start lost and it goes slowly.

If you manually turn off a light switch at the switch part near the bulb, no electronic control can ever fix that part. You have to turn it back on first. You have to turn them on and leave them on. Those of us who have people around who are not experts see this problem all the time.

There may come a day when its more common and much easier, but today its still not. Its better than it was 30 years ago and far more reliable as well. Cost is still a factor for many, but that will evolve as well.

The Nest thermostat is a good example of one that does much of this setup differently. It spends the first week or learning how you set your temps and then programs itself for this as a starting schedule. Maybe some HA vendors have added this, but I have yet to see it. That would at least make the schedule part more automatic.

 

[WilliamG]

Nope. Install and setup involves all the steps, not just the easy ones you references. The average consumer starts from zero, so they have to learn every single part at they go. Unless they have a local geek who is holding their hand through the entire process, they start lost and it goes slowly.

If you manually turn off a light switch at the switch part near the bulb, no electronic control can ever fix that part. You have to turn it back on first. You have to turn them on and leave them on. Those of us who have people around who are not experts see this problem all the time.

There may come a day when its more common and much easier, but today its still not. Its better than it was 30 years ago and far more reliable as well. Cost is still a factor for many, but that will evolve as well.

The Nest thermostat is a good example of one that does much of this setup differently. It spends the first week or learning how you set your temps and then programs itself for this as a starting schedule. Maybe some HA vendors have added this, but I have yet to see it. That would at least make the schedule part more automatic.

Near the bulb? How many houses have special light switches right near the bulb unless they're fan lights with a pull chain or something? Come on, now. This system is not for those people.

I understand trying to argue this is still SO HARD (when it's not in the slightest), but I spent 5 minutes showing my neighbor who's not even SLIGHTLY a tech-y when it comes to this sort of thing - how to install a light switch. The app stuff? She did it herself.

People doing this sort of thing are likely living in at least RELATIVELY modern houses, no? So the "master" switch issue is probably a non-issue for most.

Of course this type of thing isn't for everyone, but let's not overcomplicate things for everyone, when it's only complicated for SOME people. The same can be said for any technology.

And my neighbor? She went around her house on a light-switch-swapping frenzy this past weekend, and she's more excited than anything about her "easy to setup" system she now has. Before this system, she'd never changed anything more than a light bulb.

 

[shareef777]

Hmm, that sounds really nice. It's almost what I want. But I was imagining something where Apple, Google, IEEE, or someone else create a standard that everyone follows. Apple would make the whole UX, integrating it with iOS. Lutron and others would only make the hardware to conform to the standard. It's nicer to have a uniform way of interacting with home equipment. Oh well, that's very unlikely to happen.

I'm with you on that. I would have liked to load an app on my laptop, this way I can dim the lights while working on the laptop without having to grab the phone and load the app.

 

[Ed217]

Near the bulb? How many houses have special light switches right near the bulb unless they're fan lights with a pull chain or something? Come on, now. This system is not for those people.

I understand trying to argue this is still SO HARD (when it's not in the slightest), but I spent 5 minutes showing my neighbor who's not even SLIGHTLY a tech-y when it comes to this sort of thing - how to install a light switch. The app stuff? She did it herself.

People doing this sort of thing are likely living in at least RELATIVELY modern houses, no? So the "master" switch issue is probably a non-issue for most.

Of course this type of thing isn't for everyone, but let's not overcomplicate things for everyone, when it's only complicated for SOME people. The same can be said for any technology.

And my neighbor? She went around her house on a light-switch-swapping frenzy this past weekend, and she's more excited than anything about her "easy to setup" system she now has. Before this system, she'd never changed anything more than a light bulb.

You seem clueless to lights. Most home lights have a cord, a lamp/shade, and a switch under the shade/bulb. If you turn off the switch, which happens with visitors or inexperienced folks, no HA can fix that until its turned back on. Its similar for ceiling lights on a wall switch. Unless you replace it with a HA switch, any HA bulb will see the same fate if the switch is turned off. Its just part of the real world of dealing with HA retro fits.

For those of us who have been doing this for 30+ years, its simple stuff to understand. For the newer folks, no so apparently.

 

[WilliamG]

You seem clueless to lights. Most home lights have a cord, a lamp/shade, and a switch under the shade/bulb. If you turn off the switch, which happens with visitors or inexperienced folks, no HA can fix that until its turned back on. Its similar for ceiling lights on a wall switch. Unless you replace it with a HA switch, any HA bulb will see the same fate if the switch is turned off. Its just part of the real world of dealing with HA retro fits.

For those of us who have been doing this for 30+ years, its simple stuff to understand. For the newer folks, no so apparently.

I appreciate the insults littered in your post. Truly.

Depending where you live/the age of your house, you may indeed have ceiling fixtures with chains/switches on them - as I already said.. But what's so hard to understand that quite a LOT of people - e.g. even slightly newer houses out on the west coast, don't have that? Where are you getting the idea that "most home lights have a cord?" I, for one, don't have a single light like that in my 3,000 sq/ft house. I have light fixtures in some rooms, but there's no switch under the shade, and there's no possible way to lock myself out of home automation. Like I said, this isn't for everyone, and I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that if they have a master switch (i.e. a chain or what-have-you under their light) then of course the wall switch isn't going to work! To those same people, I'd remind them if they switch off the power at the breaker, their wall switch and home automation isn't going to work, either...

I feel like this is a non-issue for anyone who might even be interested in doing this sort of thing: which is me/you/and anyone capable of logging on to Macrumors.

Also, I'm not one of the "newer folk." I just haven't wasted my time with HA till now, because NOW it's actually accessible to pretty much anyone who spends just a few minutes reading about it. My mother-in-law is even doing this sort of thing herself, and she's pretty elderly.

But please, continue.

 

[Ed217]

I appreciate the insults littered in your post. Truly.

Depending where you live/the age of your house, you may indeed have ceiling fixtures with chains/switches on them - as I already said.. But what's so hard to understand that quite a LOT of people - e.g. even slightly newer houses out on the west coast, don't have that? Where are you getting the idea that "most home lights have a cord?" I, for one, don't have a single light like that in my 3,000 sq/ft house. I have light fixtures in some rooms, but there's no switch under the shade, and there's no possible way to lock myself out of home automation. Like I said, this isn't for everyone, and I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that if they have a master switch (i.e. a chain or what-have-you under their light) then of course the wall switch isn't going to work! To those same people, I'd remind them if they switch off the power at the breaker, their wall switch and home automation isn't going to work, either...

I feel like this is a non-issue for anyone who might even be interested in doing this sort of thing: which is me/you/and anyone capable of logging on to Macrumors.

Also, I'm not one of the "newer folk." I just haven't wasted my time with HA till now, because NOW it's actually accessible to pretty much anyone who spends just a few minutes reading about it. My mother-in-law is even doing this sort of thing herself, and she's pretty elderly.

But please, continue.

I cant think of a single home I have seen in any or all of my years that didnt have convention lamps with switches. Thats still what is common in most furniture stores. I dont doubt that some have different kinds of fixtures, but the vast majority dont. My home, my kids homes, my inlaws homes, my friends homes, etc...its a long list. Thats reality. The reason most lamps are that way is that people need to turn them on/off manually. Somewhere there is generally a switch. Only a tiny percentage of home have HA today. It will grow, but its still very very small.

The actual issue for most is having a clue of where to start for HA. Unless they have a geek friend who will help, they are likely to have a difficult time. For the record I consider myself a geek type and dont have a problem with that term or what it conveys. Later today I will be doing a screen replacement for a granddaughter whose iPhone looks like a badly cracked mirror...

This site, like many similar, tends to attract folks with lots of tech know how. Apple forums are the same way as are many company sites. But the average consumer probably has way less info.

For those of us who have been doing HA for 30+ years, the time was not wasted at all. It resulted in 30+ years of actually using HA and learning new things as new products came... and went. It also resulted in 30+ years of having an automated home. I still have a few of the original BSR X10 modules somewhere in a bag in storage. The BSR line started in the 70s.

The subject that started all of this conversation is that WeMo put their HomeKit plans on hold. Im not sure how HomeKit will do in the long run, but its been a slow start so far it seems. Being an Apple Developer, I've considered it a number of times, but have stayed away for the same reasons that Belkin did, lack of compatibility with existing products in the field. I instead stuck with building wrapper classes for Insteon products that I can use on both Apple and Windows platforms. That has worked for quite a number of years so far (I believe I have been through 4 different Insteon hubs) and will likely continue for some time.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

This is the first I've heard of this. Are you sure? Hue requires a hub, as do several other HomeKit enabled products mentioned in this thread. The hub would seem to be essential in future-proofing all those devices, and since many run using ZigBee or similar adding wifi would escalate costs, power usage and connectivity problems. Seems like a really bad requirement.

The reason HomeKit requires no hub is they want it to be open and don't want the added expense in purchasing a hub to make things work.

 

[Weaselboy]

The reason HomeKit requires no hub is they want it to be open and don't want the added expense in purchasing a hub to make things work.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204903

I believe you are mistaken about this. The point @mw360 is making is that the Philiips Hue 2.0 hub is HomeKit certified and of course is a hub. If you look at this link you can see other hubs on the HomeKit certified list. It does not appear there is any "no hub" requirement for HomeKit.

 

[Ed217]

Also, I'm not one of the "newer folk." I just haven't wasted my time with HA till now, because NOW it's actually accessible to pretty much anyone who spends just a few minutes reading about it..

For reference, these were the central elements in HA in the late 70s. They actually worked pretty well back then. Much home lighting was single phase based and homes had far fewer electronic devices that cause noise for power line based systems. I think I still have a CP290 in storage somewhere. which was the automated controller a few years later.

And things that looked like this were the cell phone equivalents of that era...

 

[RogerWilco]

And things that looked like this were the cell phone equivalents of that era...

View attachment 625127

Nuke it from orbit -- it's the only way to be sure! LOL, I still have a couple of those X-10 combo remotes lying around somewhere.

Anyway, it's instructive to note that HA in 2016 is roughly at the same stage of adoption it enjoyed in 1986...

 

[Ed217]

Anyway, it's instructive to note that HA in 2016 is roughly at the same stage of adoption it enjoyed in 1986...

Agree. Its sometimes easy to forget that the iPhone came out in 2007. It will get better, but its a slow process. There is still a fair percentage of iPhone users who could not program their iOS GPS to take them to an out of state location. Its within the last 12 months that the last "same age range" family member got their first smartphone. 2 years ago they all still had basic flip phones.

 

[RogerWilco]

Here is how Google dealt with a "legacy" Home Automation product that no longer fit its business plan:

https://medium.com/@arlogilbert/the...a-container-of-hummus-cb0941c762c1#.tmnolopgy

Apple can follow suit if the HomeKit initiative doesn't make book. It may also explain the reluctance of many companies to join with Apple if it means any form of hardware integration.

 

[Ed217]

Here is how Google dealt with a "legacy" Home Automation product that no longer fit its business plan:

https://medium.com/@arlogilbert/the...a-container-of-hummus-cb0941c762c1#.tmnolopgy

Apple can follow suit if the HomeKit initiative doesn't make book. It may also explain the reluctance of many companies to join with Apple if it means any form of hardware integration.

Quite interesting, I remember reading some time back about the chance for this change in Revolv. Microsoft had a product called UltimateTV that was quite good. They went through a similar shut down when they got out of that business area some years ago. I had 3 of them.

 

[WilliamG]

Nuke it from orbit -- it's the only way to be sure! LOL, I still have a couple of those X-10 combo remotes lying around somewhere.

Anyway, it's instructive to note that HA in 2016 is roughly at the same stage of adoption it enjoyed in 1986...

Except that's not true at all. Did pretty much all hardware stores sell HA in 1986? Cause I must have been shopping at the wrong stores. Pretty much every major hardware store (Lowe's, Home Depot etc) sells home automation stuff these days. It's not uncommon in the slightest.

 

[Ed217]

Except that's not true at all. Did pretty much all hardware stores sell HA in 1986? Cause I must have been shopping at the wrong stores. Pretty much every major hardware store (Lowe's, Home Depot etc) sells home automation stuff these days. It's not uncommon in the slightest.

Actually many did. I bought some of my components from those very stores, as well as online stores.

 

[WilliamG]

Actually many did. I bought some of my components from those very stores, as well as online stores.

If you're seriously telling me it's anything like today, I just shake my head.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Back in 1986, nobody was doing home automation except for the REAL enthusiasts. Now, my mother-in-law is doing it, and she only had a passing interest in it! I'm not saying HA is going to take off and become the norm in everyone's house. I'm just saying it's a lot simpler, especially in newer houses with regular recessed lights, and if my mother-in-law can do it, anyone who's actually INTERESTED in doing it - can, too. If you can work an iPhone and install a light switch, it's a doddle to figure out the rest.

 

[Ed217]

If you're seriously telling me it's anything like today, I just shake my head.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Back in 1986, nobody was doing home automation except for the REAL enthusiasts. Now, my mother-in-law is doing it, and she only had a passing interest in it! I'm not saying HA is going to take off and become the norm in everyone's house. I'm just saying it's a lot simpler, especially in newer houses with regular recessed lights, and if my mother-in-law can do it, anyone who's actually INTERESTED in doing it - can, too. If you can work an iPhone and install a light switch, it's a doddle to figure out the rest.

Did a quick grab into an old bag. Here is the image:



There were lots of branded products from many firms. Radio Shack was a big player back then.

That said, clearly software is much better today than back then. The hardware end is somewhat better than before, but its still an involved process for the entire setup with a few dozen lights and schedules. Schedules are a weakness, as that part is always a bit more involved that many may initially expect. Things like weekend verses weekday, differences in rooms. Then there are sensors, or the lack of support for them...

When a known geek is available to assist, its clearly easier. When no such person is around, it becomes more daunting for the average novice. It will get better, its just not there yet.