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A big reason to use Thunderbolt over USB3.0 is the support of TRIM. TRIM will help your SSD remain speedy and increase endurance.

USB "hides" the SATA characteristics of the drive behind the USB interface. You no longer see a Samsung SSD (for example) and cannot read any of the SMART attributes if you are interested in them.

USB is cheap and portable between OSes and other vendor systems. Thunderbolt with a quality SATA chipset in the enclosure will give you the best technical solution for modern Macs, at a price increase over USB. Pick what's important to you.

I figure that if I pay, oh, $2500 for a iMac, I'm not going cheap out on the external drive interface.
 
It is perhaps optimistic, we'll see once it's released I guess :)
The Thermaltake Silver River has been released and tested by people here on Macrumors and that is faster than the Seagate TB ^^
The problem I see with the tests I've seen posted here with regards to the external USB 3.0 enclosures is that the reported speeds are FASTER than the tested speeds of the same drives using native SATA 6 motherboard support. Because of that, I'm suspicious of the reported speeds.

Your claim of ~500GB/sec, for example, in a USB 3.0 external case...
When it came to reading data, every drive we tested turned in good numbers. Oddly enough, the 256MB OCZ Vertex 4, which took fourth place overall with its combined reading and writing, was the slowest reader at 393.5 MBps (file mix and large file combined). The highest combined mark, on the other hand, wasn’t tremendously higher: Samsung's 240GB 840 Pro delivered 450.8 MBps (about 14 percent faster). http://www.pcworld.com/article/2020...ssds-plus-reviews-of-7-new-drives.html?page=2
I just don't see an external USB 3.0 enclosure having faster transfers than a motherboard SATA 6 based SSD.
 
The problem I see with the tests I've seen posted here with regards to the external USB 3.0 enclosures is that the reported speeds are FASTER than the tested speeds of the same drives using native SATA 6 motherboard support. Because of that, I'm suspicious of the reported speeds.

Your claim of ~500GB/sec, for example, in a USB 3.0 external case...

I just don't see an external USB 3.0 enclosure having faster transfers than a motherboard SATA 6 based SSD.

The claim of 500 GB/sec?!? That's outrageous, I've never claimed that.
I did post 500 mb/s, but that was an estimate as I was on the cellphone and didn't remember exactly what the website was saying. You were right when you corrected me with 440 mb/s.

Is 440 mb/s faster than having the 840 Pro internally? As far as I know they achieve 520~ with that drive internally but I don't have the exact numbers.

And no, USB3 should not be faster than native motherboard SATA III :)
 
Here you go: http://barefeats.com/hard161.html
Seems they were using the Samsung 840 Pro.

So how did they getaway 775MB/sec dual SSD result when the USB 3.0 spec is 5Gbps?

----------

The claim of 500 GB/sec?!? That's outrageous, I've never claimed that.
I did post 500 mb/s, but that was an estimate as I was on the cellphone and didn't remember exactly what the website was saying. You were right when you corrected me with 440 mb/s.

Is 440 mb/s faster than having the 840 Pro internally? As far as I know they achieve 520~ with that drive internally but I don't have the exact numbers.

And no, USB3 should not be faster than native motherboard SATA III :)

Sorry, typo about the 500GB/sec, but the basic question still remains. A test of the 840 Pro using SATA6 mobo support
"With the file transferring as one sequential block, the Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series delivered blazing fast read/write speeds of 490.6 and 462.7 MBps, respectively, blowing away the OCZ Vertex 4 (388.7/435.2 MBps) and tying the Intel SSD 335 for reads (490.6 MBps) but smoking its writes (325.9 Mbps). http://www.laptopmag.com/review/storage/samsung-sd-840-pro-series.aspx"

In any case, the external you pointed out is blazingly fast, and it's probably what I will get, along with an 840 Pro. I like the lower CPU drag of Thunderbolt, but I don't know if I'm willing to pay the high costs relative to USB 3.0.
 
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So how did they getaway 775MB/sec dual SSD result when the USB 3.0 spec is 5Gbps?

----------



Sorry, typo about the 500GB/sec, but the basic question still remains. A test of the 840 Pro using SATA6 mobo support
"With the file transferring as one sequential block, the Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series delivered blazing fast read/write speeds of 490.6 and 462.7 MBps, respectively, blowing away the OCZ Vertex 4 (388.7/435.2 MBps) and tying the Intel SSD 335 for reads (490.6 MBps) but smoking its writes (325.9 Mbps). http://www.laptopmag.com/review/storage/samsung-sd-840-pro-series.aspx"

In any case, the external you pointed out is blazingly fast, and it's probably what I will get, along with an 840 Pro. I like the lower CPU drag of Thunderbolt, but I don't know if I'm willing to pay the high costs relative to USB 3.0.

So how did they getaway 775MB/sec dual SSD result when the USB 3.0 spec is 5Gbps?

----------


They used a pair of drives, each running through a separate USB-3 interface, then software RAID-0 them within the computer.


-howard

This :) RAID 0 increases speed(but requires 2 drives and the storage will still only be the equivalent of 1 of the drives).

Having 490mb/s externally on a drive that has 520 internally isn't too far of a stretch I think. But these are benchmarks and shouldn't be taken as "this is what I will get when I transfer files". In any case, you think of it as I think I guess. The extra CPU-usage is a shame but TB-enclosures are 1) currently too expensive, and 2) not many to choose from.

Definitely looking forward to the Firmtek being released!
 
This :) RAID 0 increases speed(but requires 2 drives and the storage will still only be the equivalent of 1 of the drives).

Having 490mb/s externally on a drive that has 520 internally isn't too far of a stretch I think. But these are benchmarks and shouldn't be taken as "this is what I will get when I transfer files". In any case, you think of it as I think I guess. The extra CPU-usage is a shame but TB-enclosures are 1) currently too expensive, and 2) not many to choose from.

Definitely looking forward to the Firmtek being released!

That is incorrect, you may be thinking of RAID-1 which is the size of the smaller of 2 drives, adds redundancy for single disk failure, and doesn't deliver any speed advantage.

RAID-0 runs 2 or more drives in parallel, striping the data across the drives and allowing for faster access to the data as each drive delivers part of the data stream. The capacity of the array drive is the sum of the 4 drives. There is no redundancy and a single failure destroys all the data. This is how I was able to create a 4TB drive with 500MB/s data transfer using standard laptop hard drives (4 ea. 1TB drives in parallel) with the Pegasus J4 Thunderbolt enclosure at a low price.

Thunderbolt is a PCI bus extension and each SATA drive can be seen individually through the TB interface and RAID-0 can be used with multiple drives up to the saturation point of the TB interface.
 
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That is incorrect, you may be thinking of RAID-1 which is the size of the smaller of 2 drives, adds redundancy for single disk failure, and doesn't deliver any speed advantage.

RAID-0 runs 2 or more drives in parallel, striping the data across the drives and allowing for faster access to the data as each drive delivers part of the data stream. There is no redundancy and a single failure destroys all the data.

Thunderbolt is a PCI bus extension and each SATA drive can be seen individually through the TB interface and RAID-0 can be used with multiple drives up to the saturation point of the TB interface.

Oh cool! I always thought it reduced the storage in RAID 0 too, so if you were to pair 2x 512GB, you wouldn't end up with 1TB, but rather only 512GB of striped data. This makes RAID-0 on boot-SSDs even more appealing(as long as you have some form of backup of it)! :D
 
Oh cool! I always thought it reduced the storage in RAID 0 too, so if you were to pair 2x 512GB, you wouldn't end up with 1TB, but rather only 512GB of striped data. This makes RAID-0 on boot-SSDs even more appealing(as long as you have some form of backup of it)! :D

That is correct. I posted the results of a pair of 500GB Crucial M4 SSDs in a RAID-0 configuration using the LaCie "Little Big Disk" Thunderbolt enclosure. This gave me a 1TB SSD with much faster data transfer for about $1000. A 1TB single disk SSD from OCZ is currently $2500 at Newegg or Amazon.

Someone on one of the threads here is currently setting up a Pegasus J4 with 4 ea. 512GB SSD in RAID-0. I am anxious to see what speeds that will deliver. I don't have 4 matched SSDs to try that out with myself.


-howard
 
RE: available drives

The CalDigit T1 and T2 are quite interesting, and I have been following since their announcement almost a year ago.

Unfortunately, except for one or two early reviews of apparently pre-production units, neither is available for purchase today. The website still lists: "(* Coming Soon )" for both, and a call to their offices yields "soon" as a response when asked when they will be available for purchase.

As for 1TB SSD solutions, LaCie is shipping their $999 Little Big Disk; it has two Micron 500GB SSD devices internally. This model is currently in stock at the Apple online store.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/HA721ZM/A/lacie-1tb-sata-iii-ssd-thunderbolt-little-big-disk-hard-drive
 
Someone on one of the threads here is currently setting up a Pegasus J4 with 4 ea. 512GB SSD in RAID-0. I am anxious to see what speeds that will deliver. I don't have 4 matched SSDs to try that out with myself.

Howard, who is doing that and where is it taking place!? :D Please link me to the thread, that is exactly what I want to do! I have been emailing Promise about it, they want to help...but have not been able to give me a specific answer yet. Thanks!
 
That is correct. I posted the results of a pair of 500GB Crucial M4 SSDs in a RAID-0 configuration using the LaCie "Little Big Disk" Thunderbolt enclosure. This gave me a 1TB SSD with much faster data transfer for about $1000. A 1TB single disk SSD from OCZ is currently $2500 at Newegg or Amazon.

Someone on one of the threads here is currently setting up a Pegasus J4 with 4 ea. 512GB SSD in RAID-0. I am anxious to see what speeds that will deliver. I don't have 4 matched SSDs to try that out with myself.


-howard

Is there a difference if you have them matched or unmatched?
Also, how did you get the LBD TB-enclosure with your own SSDs? They can't be bought disk-less, can they? Is there any TB-diskless enclosures currently available from any manufacturer(except for the Pegasus R4/R6/J4)?
 
Is there a difference if you have them matched or unmatched?
Also, how did you get the LBD TB-enclosure with your own SSDs? They can't be bought disk-less, can they? Is there any TB-diskless enclosures currently available from any manufacturer(except for the Pegasus R4/R6/J4)?

It is always a good idea to have matched drives in a striped RAID array. :D

You can buy refurbished LaCie LBD units at MacMall (or via their eBay store) for half price (1TB and 2TB are available) and remove the hard disk drives and replace them with SSD drives (or even build a Fusion drive out of 1 of each). Why they are "refurbished" I don't know (possibly due to the "now upgraded to SATA-III" advertising), mine looked brand new and work fine, and appear to have SATA-III controllers in them. I was able to use the removed hard disks in other applications, but you could just sell them on CL. I also unplug the tiny fan when using them with SSDs.

However, if don't already have the SS drives and are going to purchase them, I would just get the new SSD LaCie SSD units which come with the TB cable ... it will cost you the same or less than doing it yourself.


-howard
 
Howard, who is doing that and where is it taking place!? :D Please link me to the thread, that is exactly what I want to do! I have been emailing Promise about it, they want to help...but have not been able to give me a specific answer yet. Thanks!

It is in the "Promise J4 + 500GB SSD" thread here.

See Post #4 here:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1526405/

As of this moment I am testing a J4 with two Samsung 830 (512GB) SSDs and two 1 TB rotating drives, and I will hook up another one with a quartet of 830 (512GB) SSDs tomorrow to see how it fares.
 
A big reason to use Thunderbolt over USB3.0 is the support of TRIM. TRIM will help your SSD remain speedy and increase endurance.

USB "hides" the SATA characteristics of the drive behind the USB interface. You no longer see a Samsung SSD (for example) and cannot read any of the SMART attributes if you are interested in them.

USB is cheap and portable between OSes and other vendor systems. Thunderbolt with a quality SATA chipset in the enclosure will give you the best technical solution for modern Macs, at a price increase over USB. Pick what's important to you.

I figure that if I pay, oh, $2500 for a iMac, I'm not going cheap out on the external drive interface.
Do the newest SSDs still need TRIM? I thought that they now handle TRIM activities in the SSD itself, eliminating the need for it. So if you use USB 3.0 and the drives still need, or at least would benefit from TRIM, you're SOL?

Nevermind about the TRIM being needed question, I found it...
The worst-case scenario for an SSD is a sustained write load, especially when TRIM is not available. In this case, performance will sometimes decline considerably, and the Samsung SSD 840 Series is no exception to this rule. But this is a problem common to most current SSDs - the only exceptions are SandForce based drives. http://www.hardwareluxx.com/index.p...msung-ssd-840-and-840-pro-series.html?start=4

But that definitely sounds like a downside to USB, if true, that you can't use TRIM.
 
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It is always a good idea to have matched drives in a striped RAID array. :D

You can buy refurbished LaCie LBD units at MacMall (or via their eBay store) for half price (1TB and 2TB are available) and remove the hard disk drives and replace them with SSD drives (or even build a Fusion drive out of 1 of each). Why they are "refurbished" I don't know (possibly due to the "now upgraded to SATA-III" advertising), mine looked brand new and work fine, and appear to have SATA-III controllers in them. I was able to use the removed hard disks in other applications, but you could just sell them on CL. I also unplug the tiny fan when using them with SSDs.

However, if don't already have the SS drives and are going to purchase them, I would just get the new SSD LaCie SSD units which come with the TB cable ... it will cost you the same or less than doing it yourself.


-howard

Cheers for the advice!
Oh okay, I actually emailed them before and the HDD versions of the LBD doesn't have the SATA III controllers, according to the person replying to me. And that kinda sucks since it limits you to the SSD version.

Yes but it won't be cheaper if you only want 2x 256GB SSDs :) But anyway, cheers for the explaining!
 
Do the newest SSDs still need TRIM? I thought that they now handle TRIM activities in the SSD itself, eliminating the need for it. So if you use USB 3.0 and the drives still need, or at least would benefit from TRIM, you're SOL?

Nevermind about the TRIM being needed question, I found it...


But that definitely sounds like a downside to USB, if true, that you can't use TRIM.

It sounds like you answered it yourself, but yes, SSDs benefit from TRIM support. without TRIM commands being passed through from the OS to the SSD, when you delete a file, the SSD doesn't know anything about it. It will continue to keep that data in place until it's overwritten by something else.

With TRIM, the OS sends a block discard command to the device, which can then tell the NAND controller to erase those NAND cells during garbage collection, and make free space for writes.

Without it, the NAND controller moves and refreshes bits on disk that are no longer used by the OS. This adds to wear and tear on the SSD.

You know that recommendation that you keep 10-25% of the SSD unformatted? That's to keep free space for the system to use. With TRIM, that's not necessary if you never use more than say 80% of the disk capacity. The free space in the OS is TRIMmed and is free on the NAND array too.
 
Cheers for the advice!
Oh okay, I actually emailed them before and the HDD versions of the LBD doesn't have the SATA III controllers, according to the person replying to me. And that kinda sucks since it limits you to the SSD version.

Yes but it won't be cheaper if you only want 2x 256GB SSDs :) But anyway, cheers for the explaining!

You can get a 512GB (2 x 256GB) LaCie LBD SSD Thunderbolt with TB cable for $700 ... or the 1TB (2 x 512GB) unit for $1000. If you buy premium SSDs, the cable, and a refurb disk unit for the enclosure you will probably spend more than that, and not have any warranty.

I don't know about the SATA-III issue with current production units. I looked up the SATA controller part number that was in both my disk-based refurb LaCie units and they were SATA-III 6GB/s controllers. However, there appears to also be a processor in there, and the current production SSD units may have upgraded software which speeds the transfer ... or the customer service rep may have been spewing FUD to discourage you from going the DIY route. :rolleyes:

-howard
 
SHOOTOUT of NOTEBOOK STORAGE: USB 3.0 vs Thunderbolt

WHICH IS FASTER? Thunderbolt Bus Powered 2.5" or USB 3.0 Bus Powered 2.5" Storage?

http://barefeats.com/hard168.html

Compare LaCie LBD TB*, ElGato TB, GoFlex TB, LaCie Rugged USB3+TB, and FirmTek miniSwap/U3 -- all with SSDs installed.

(*LBD not bus powered but others are)
 
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WHICH IS FASTER? Thunderbolt Bus Powered 2.5" or USB 3.0 Bus Powered 2.5" Storage?

http://barefeats.com/hard168.html

Compare LaCie LBD TB*, ElGato TB, GoFlex TB, LaCie Rugged USB3+TB, and FirmTek miniSwap/U3 -- all with SSDs installed.

(*LBD not bus powered but others are)

That is the most non-logical, unscientific review of storage I've read in a long time.

They don't even use the same SSDs inside each enclosure. On top of that, they are making broad statements about USB3 vs. Thunderbolt when there is also a controller in each case.

Host -> Thunderbolt chip (in host) -> SATA controller (in external case) -> SSD-A
Host -> USB 3 controller (in host) -> USB3 Chip (in external case) -> SSD-B

The only variable they held constant was the one on the left! They didn't try multiple USB3 or Thunderbolt controllers (granted, in my iMac as an example, I only have one of each to choose from, but they DO affect performance)

Yes, this was a stupid comparison, made by "tech" guys who really don't get it, but have a deadline and need to put out some pulp for you to read. Sorry, truth is brutal.

----

Updated later: Oh, sorry Barefeets, that's your review. Well, again, trying to get readership over at your site by posting links here... should have done a better review, maybe it would work.
 
That is the most non-logical, unscientific review of storage I've read in a long time.

Our choice of SSDs was limited to what was shipped in each sealed device from the factory. So if the SSD they chose was not as fast as the competitor's, that's the choice they made and they have to live with it.

It also limits the choices of the consumer. You get what you get unless you want to crack the case open and void the warranty. So from a consumer's point of view, that's real world. That's what they live with. And that's what we measured.

At least with the miniSwap/U3, you choose the drive you want. And you can upgrade to faster and large capacity drive without buying another sealed unit.
 
Our choice of SSDs was limited to what was shipped in each sealed device from the factory. So if the SSD they chose was not as fast as the competitor's, that's the choice they made and they have to live with it.

It also limits the choices of the consumer. You get what you get unless you want to crack the case open and void the warranty. So from a consumer's point of view, that's real world. That's what they live with. And that's what we measured.

At least with the miniSwap/U3, you choose the drive you want. And you can upgrade to faster and large capacity drive without buying another sealed unit.

Thanks for your report. The biggest problem (and this is NOT your fault)... is that SSDs are commonly measured using the worst possible metric (MB/s). This is a fall-back to the way HDDs are measured. For all practical purposes, measuring SSDs in MB/s is next to useless. Instead, what makes your computer fast (both real and perceived) using SSDs are IOPs and latency (they are inter-related). Bandwidth (in MB/s) in most cases is a tertiary effect. The problem... is there are no good tools or procedures commonly available to run the tests.

A reasonable analogy would be maximum speed of an automobile. Top speeds of 180, 200, & 220 MPH would be totally irrelevant on how the car performed in daily (or even performance) driving... and for most of us... would be a silly metric to use while buying a new car. However 0-60 ratings of 4, 20 & 60 seconds would have a huge difference is real-life performance (ex:safety when passing).

I am doing what I can to change the industry to measure SSDs in ways that actually matter... and provide useful information. I am in a position where I can affect this... but it is a very difficult problem, and one that will not be solved overnight. In the mean time... I just acknowledge that the current ways that we measure SSD performance are first order -- irrelevant. Such is life.

/Jim
 
It would seem that a very useful benchmark for SSDs would be IOPs per second at various block sizes.

Thruput is a factor when copying files or editing video.

IO operations per second would give a good handle on everyday use.
 
Our choice of SSDs was limited to what was shipped in each sealed device from the factory. So if the SSD they chose was not as fast as the competitor's, that's the choice they made and they have to live with it.

It also limits the choices of the consumer. You get what you get unless you want to crack the case open and void the warranty. So from a consumer's point of view, that's real world. That's what they live with. And that's what we measured.

At least with the miniSwap/U3, you choose the drive you want. And you can upgrade to faster and large capacity drive without buying another sealed unit.

Then please do title and run your report as a report comparing two consumer products, one USB3 and one Thunderbolt/SATA. Don't try to compare USB3 vs. Thunderbolt because that's not what you've done.

Thunderbolt, as used with external SATA drives, is a PCIe connection. If the implementation is good on the host side, it's the same as a PCIe slot on the motherboard. The important variable is the SATA controller chip in the external disk enclosure. Hold the SSD variable constant, compare multiple Thunderbolt enclosures, and pick the best one.

Then on the USB3 side: The controller on the HOST matters. Find the best motherboard implementation of USB3 out there (unless you are doing Mac-specific testing), and THEN vary the external enclosure, which is also containing a SATA controller (just like the Thunderbolt scenario).

Thunderbolt is as "native" or "transparent" as you get. It's simply an extension of the PCIe bus.

This doesn't mean USB3 is slow. But it cannot get faster than Thunderbolt if all other variables are kept constant. It's an additional protocol in between what are otherwise the same components in a system. There's no "magic" that makes data that traverses USB3 faster than if it skipped the whole USB3 translation in the first place.

----------

I am doing what I can to change the industry to measure SSDs in ways that actually matter... and provide useful information. I am in a position where I can affect this... but it is a very difficult problem, and one that will not be solved overnight. In the mean time... I just acknowledge that the current ways that we measure SSD performance are first order -- irrelevant. Such is life.

/Jim

IOPs are huge, bandwidth is important as well. That's why an old crusty 40GB Intel SSD feels faster than a hard drive, because it does IOPs better than the hard drive. It certainly doesn't do bandwidth better!

I work in the solid state industry, with a focus on enterprise (not desktop) class devices. These desktop storage devices are toys to me (but cool enough that I use them for my desktop). To see online publications oversimplify things just shows me that they have no idea what the real datacenter I/O traffic does to a storage subsystem. Where is the multithreaded testing? Where is the queue depth variance? What about the differences in the SSDs under test? That's the biggest single variable in this test, and it was utterly ignored.
 
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