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Originally posted by bitfactory
nope. its for BOTH. for rec. companies reluctant to promote + distribute albums by lesser-known artists, all they have to do is provide access to the files.

if the service allows you to 'preview' a stream of the music, this will benefit BOTH sides of the fence.

after-all, money is money - whether its coming from the sales of U2 or, let's say, Augie March.


Well, not exactly. The studio/label system thrives on control. The more people listen to "outside the mainstream" and perhaps even (perish the thought!) "unlabeled" music, the less control the labels have. The less control they have, the less able they are to swindle artists out of their earnings. The less able they are to swindle artists the less likely they are to make the escalating profits they so enjoy.

Let there be no mistake: at the very core, the main labels do not want to "broaden the horizons" of their listeners. They want to control what you think is good enough to buy. The only way they will cede this control is if they have no other choice.

That having been said, Apple stands to benefit greatly from offering more variety than your average Sam Goody. More variety means more sales, and to Apple, all sales are essentially equal. When you introduce people to new music, people (well, okay, me, I'm talking about me here :) ) are more likely to go on a "buying spree" snapping up everything that artist ever put out. Such impulse or short-decision purchases are always good for retailers.

So, between Apple and the Big 5 Labels, who will win out in this issue? I suspect that Apple will offer enough breadth initially to make a mark for themselves, but the "real" breadth and depth of catalogue won't be seen until the service has proven itself and is essentially self-sustaining. Right now, Apple has little bargaining power; once the service has proven itself Apple will be in a much better position to promote its interests above those of the labels.
 
Originally posted by Freg3000
Ok, point taken. But how much more money will be made from U2 than from Augie March? Maybe the idea is to look for a possibile new star who will generate a lot of money in say....2005. But seriously, would a record company rather get some money now in a bad economy, or would they prefer to open up pretty much unknown artists today for potential benifits tomorrow? I thin they'd take the money now, and that's why I think the service will be very mainstream.

JMHO.

that's my point... money is money, no matter who gets the sale.

if 5,000 people buy songs from, again, let's say Augie March, that's potentially 5,000 songs purchased by people who (a) may not have heard of them (b) may not have known how to order the tangible CD in the first place.

sure, 'breaking' an artist would be great, but not a likely proposition while the service is still Mac-only.

all-in-all, this has the possibility of completely changing the (legal) distribution method of music forever. yeah, others do it now - but it'll be Apple that revolutionizes the ease-of-use, quality and buy-in from labels.

hopefully, in the future we'll have the options to browse non-major label artists who go their own route... like Aimee Mann, who shunned Universal in a huge battle and started her own label to distribute her albums, as well as her friends + family albums.

the key is how DEEP the catalog is... if its the stuff you can find anywhere, i may not use it at all... if it offers a deep historical catalog that jumps continents, i'm all over it.
 
Originally posted by jettredmont
Well, not exactly. The studio/label system thrives on control. The more people listen to "outside the mainstream" and perhaps even (perish the thought!) "unlabeled" music

i agree they thrive on control - that's what makes them unmitigated pr*cks. but i'm referencing more the smaller label OWNED by the big 5... (which is a LOT).

for instance - there are a boatload of small foreign and domestic labels owned by the big 5 - the difference is that your local Media Play, Best Buy, etc... won't carry these titles, and sometimes they can't because they aren't being distributed in the states.

take the new Cardigans album, for instance... it is (at least was, not sure now) only available as an import. i ordered it and payed through the nose for it... but it was worth it. btw, Cardigans are on a sub-label called Stockholm Records (which is distrib by Universal - they may be owned by Universal as well) - but they weren't being distributed in the States. if i had the option to go through iTunes and buy the album, i would have done it in a second (and saved the import price).

small mom and pop labels are a different discussion... maybe in the future... but i'd like to see how they handle the service with the big boys, first.
 
CDs and liner notes...

I agree that the thought of paying for music and getting nothing more than a digital file can seem a bit unsettling. I like the thought of having a new CD in my hand with artwork, liner notes, etc. But in reality, when I buy a CD now, I immediately pop it into my Mac, rip the songs to MP3, dump them to my iPod (and listen to them wirelessly through my home entertainment center via TiVo), and stuff the CD in a cabinet where it rarely again sees the light of day. The CD and case are no more than space hogs now.

What I'd like to see incorporated into iTunes is something similar to the iTunes add-on Synergy, which pulls up cover art each time a song is played. If you could click on that graphic and access lyrics, band notes, etc., I think it would be fantastic. Forget the CD and case! That's so, uh, 20th century...
 
I find it interesting that everyone is assuming that Apple will not offer a monthly unlimited download option. I'm willing to bet that Apple is holding back some information, and hopefully they will offer an unlimited download price.

Apple's probably been working on this service for a year. What did they decide to do almost a year ago? They started a pay service called .Mac, which they promised would be integrated more and more with Apple's iApps. I see .Mac members getting some kind of specials rate, and/or the option for unlimited monthly downloads. Heck, I can even see Apple offering 6 months of free downloads to .Mac members, then a lower price (maybe $0.50 per song) once the 6 months is up.

The way I see it, Apple knew they were going to start a music service the minute they decided to create .Mac. Apple's worked too hard to promote .Mac as the perfect compliment to the Mac, and they would be stupid not to integrate the music service into the program.
 
Originally posted by bitfactory

for instance - there are a boatload of small foreign and domestic labels owned by the big 5 - the difference is that your local Media Play, Best Buy, etc... won't carry these titles, and sometimes they can't because they aren't being distributed in the states.


I can speak from experience here that at least in Country Music Production, this is starting to Change. Sony Nashville (which is actually Sony Music's US headquarters now, is in talks to drop a lot of the small labels it aquired in thee good times. My friends in the music media say thsi is expanding beyond country into smaller rock labels. Strangely, hip-hop labels were never that aquired, the underground has remained underground, so the situation there is about the same
 
Originally posted by RBMaraman
I find it interesting that everyone is assuming that Apple will not offer a monthly unlimited download option. I'm willing to bet that Apple is holding back some information, and hopefully they will offer an unlimited download price.

Apple's probably been working on this service for a year. What did they decide to do almost a year ago? They started a pay service called .Mac, which they promised would be integrated more and more with Apple's iApps. I see .Mac members getting some kind of specials rate, and/or the option for unlimited monthly downloads. Heck, I can even see Apple offering 6 months of free downloads to .Mac members, then a lower price (maybe $0.50 per song) once the 6 months is up.

The way I see it, Apple knew they were going to start a music service the minute they decided to create .Mac. Apple's worked too hard to promote .Mac as the perfect compliment to the Mac, and they would be stupid not to integrate the music service into the program.

I've got a 10Mb/s pipe going to my home and a OC192 at my office between the two I could grab everything they had to offer in WAY less than 6 months time. :)

Sorry but I just can't see Apple allowing anyone UNLIMITED downloads.

If you wanna change your wording from unlimited DOWNLOADS to unlimited (unsaveable) music streams... then MAYBE you could be right... but even then I kinda doubt it. After all even with Apples fat akami pipes it could never support UNLIMITED streams either.

Dave
 
Originally posted by DaveGee
I've got a 10Mb/s pipe going to my home and a OC192 at my office between the two I could grab everything they had to offer in WAY less than 6 months time. :)

Sorry but I just can't see Apple allowing anyone UNLIMITED downloads.

If you wanna change your wording from unlimited DOWNLOADS to unlimited (unsaveable) music streams... then MAYBE you could be right... but even then I kinda doubt it. After all even with Apples fat akami pipes it could never support UNLIMITED streams either.

Dave

OK then DaveGee, I'll rephrase my statements. And please, there is no need to SHOUT! OK! THANK YOU!

I see what you mean about unlimited downloads. If they wanted to make a profit, they'd have to price the service at $500+ per month.

But, do you agree that .Mac integration would be an excellent strategy? My post wasn't about whether or not unlimited downloads will happen (though it does kinda soung that way). It was more about people's opinions on .Mac integration.
 
Originally posted by Freg3000
I am eager to find out all the details about this service, but I'd rather be surprised with an Apple announcement on Monday...not Billboard :(.

I guess I'm a purest.

Yeah, obviously you are a purest, that's why your here with us on macRUMORS.com
:)
 
Originally posted by buffsldr
Yeah, obviously you are a purest, that's why your here with us on macRUMORS.com
:)

Ok, fair enough.

I am a semi-purest. I do want to have an idea of what is coming, but I still want to be a little surprised.

I just want to know some info, to keep me anxious to know it all.
 
Originally posted by RBMaraman
I find it interesting that everyone is assuming that Apple will not offer a monthly unlimited download option. I'm willing to bet that Apple is holding back some information, and hopefully they will offer an unlimited download price.

Apple's probably been working on this service for a year. What did they decide to do almost a year ago? They started a pay service called .Mac, which they promised would be integrated more and more with Apple's iApps. I see .Mac members getting some kind of specials rate, and/or the option for unlimited monthly downloads. Heck, I can even see Apple offering 6 months of free downloads to .Mac members, then a lower price (maybe $0.50 per song) once the 6 months is up.

The way I see it, Apple knew they were going to start a music service the minute they decided to create .Mac. Apple's worked too hard to promote .Mac as the perfect compliment to the Mac, and they would be stupid not to integrate the music service into the program.

Analysts are estimating that Apple is paying the labels 65c per song with 10c in expenses (assuming it is a success). 50c is out of the question.
 
i said it before and ill say it again, someone will find a way to hack the files, and distribute it. thus leading to a big press coverage of it, and it will be more wanted. like iCommune, only without a re-release.
 
Originally posted by Nebrie
Analysts are estimating that Apple is paying the labels 65c per song with 10c in expenses (assuming it is a success). 50c is out of the question.

That's why I put the word maybe before the price. I wasn't saying that Apple would/should sell the songs for that price. It was just an uninformed thought.

Where did you hear the information on the prices? Do you have a link to an article that makes reference to it? I'm interested in hearing what the financial analysts think about the venture.
 
.mac

I'd say that .Mac users would get, say, maybe 5 or 10 free songs per month. Something like that. Certainly not unlimited downloading.

Or I hope so anyway, cos I've got .Mac :D

I'm really excited about this whole thing. I think it could really help Apple if they become a really major force inthe music industry. They would be the legal Napster! But they have to allow PC users to use the service. If they don't, they're screwed.
 
Originally posted by RBMaraman
I find it interesting that everyone is assuming that Apple will not offer a monthly unlimited download option. I'm willing to bet that Apple is holding back some information, and hopefully they will offer an unlimited download price.

Apple's probably been working on this service for a year. What did they decide to do almost a year ago? They started a pay service called .Mac, which they promised would be integrated more and more with Apple's iApps. I see .Mac members getting some kind of specials rate, and/or the option for unlimited monthly downloads. Heck, I can even see Apple offering 6 months of free downloads to .Mac members, then a lower price (maybe $0.50 per song) once the 6 months is up.

I think I read somewhere that the royalties that have to be paid to the record companies in order to distribute the music are in the neighborhood of 65 cents a song. Meaning, you have to charge at least that just to break even on each song. I don't remember where I read this, so I may have this wrong. This would explain why unlimited downloading is not a feasible long term option for these online services, and maybe even why the catalogs of music are so small. Anyone able to confirm this number, or I am the victim of some "fuzzy math?" ;)

Ha ha ok, while I was thinking about what to write, some other people posted and verified my 65 cent information, so I feel less crazy now. Hooray!
 
maybe I missed something (most definatly), but is it basically confirmed that the music service will be through .mac, or will so far have we decided that .mac would be an option and you would get a discount, or am I babbling and losing thought of why I am writing this whatsoever: true
 
an idea for buying the music!!

use apple gift cards on a special online store to buy the song and/or album. you could also use a credit card, but the gift card idea is good for people my age.

also, MacMinute is reporting that The Wall Street Journal has leaked information.

http://www.macminute.com/2003/04/25/wsj

My favorite part of it is this

Jobs reportedly said, knowing the Eagles in the past have blocked the use of their songs on such services. Jobs even offered to personally demonstrate the service for Azoff and Eagles singer Don Henley. Earlier this week, the band and AOL Time Warner indeed struck a deal, allowing most of the band's music to be used by Apple's service. "I've said 'no' to all of them," Azoff says of other music services. "But I don't like their services, and I liked [Apple's] product."

In addition to the Eagles, the Apple CEO has signed up the pop band No Doubt, and several other artists who haven't yet allowed their songs to be offered by other online ventures. The new service is expected to have an "exclusives" area for music not available elsewhere.

I am a huge No Doubt fan!!!
 
I wonder if anyone has thought about the fact that this kind of service could be the equivalent of on-demand publishing for authors. With this kind of a service around, many bands that otherwise might never have had more than a handful of songs produced in their home town might get much greater distribution, without ever needing to sign on with a big record label.

Do you suppose that this might be part of what has made the record labels hesitant to endorse a service like this? Do you suppose that Apple had to promise not to distribute music from a label that was too small? (I'm guessing/hoping that Apple wouldn't have signed a deal with the big-5 saying that the Apple music service would only work with their music, and no other labels.)

Personally, I'm in favor of a band recording a song, calling Apple, and saying 'here's my song', then having Apple post it. Just as I'm in favor of on-demand publishing for authors. It only enriches our culture. But I could see why the big labels might consider it to be a very significant threat.
 
I've had mix feelings about this service since I heard about it.

On the one hand, its gonn abe reat to get legal downloads etc etc etc..

On the other hand, think of the long effects on the way music is created and distributed. Does anyone else fear for the loss of the album? Record companies already have control over their artists to a certain extent in that they release stuff that will make money. If most people only buy the really catchy songs that you like immediately from an album, then would they jsut stop producing the more interesting songs that tend to grow on you subconsciously when you listen to an album as background? We all know that songs are popular if they are immediately catchy, but some of my favourite songs i really didn't like at first few listens. If we had had this system for the last 6 years already I would not have discovered about 70% of my favourtie music. I reckon about that percentage of my 7000 strong iTunes library is of songs that I would not download from a service like this, anyone else get what I'm worried about? I mean, in mainstream music in this country its already happening anyway, singles sales are far larger than album sales, mainstream pop artists only really produce albums as a formality and they normally suck, even if you like the singles!!!! I see an album as one whole, like a film, buying one song from an album is like buying one chapter from a DVD for me. Sure there are some scenes that would suck but the film wouldn't work if you only bought the killing and sex scenes for example! lol
 
Publishing On Demand

This has been a moajor part of what excites me about this service.

If Apple wants to truly innovate, they will have "Ready-to-go" contracts for artists. I'm sure there are some legal issues they would have to address, but think of the possibility of publishing your music with the simplicity of uploading via secured FTP.

It would be totally sweet.

However, any smart record label will find innovative ways to promote their artists through special deals, like package deals on tracks and albums, ie: buy this album, get these promotional tracks free, buy this track, get this track, etc.

On the issue of copyright protection, what about imbedding a user ID into the file you download, and then only needing to associate that user ID to your copy of iTunes to be able to use the track?

And I have a feeling that streaming music will have a big, big part of this service for the promotional side. Hopefully they will also have their own forums.

Oh, and they should definitely keep track of what songs you own, with some conditional redownload options.
 
A few things in passing...

1. Remember "Rip, Mix Burn" ? Apple is known and trusted by the people in the music industry who actually MAKE the music. If a music service is announced, expect to do for music downloads what iTunes and the iPod did for MP-3 players.

2. $1 a song? $10 an album? I'm there. The reason I don't buy albums anymore is so few of them have 12 decent songs that are worth my money. When I ripped my CD collection, I didn't rip every track on every CD, but rather the songs I liked. The collection keeps growing, BTW, as I go back and find songs that I'd forgotten. I can see this happening with this new service as well. I'd purchase the songs I like at first, then go back an fill in the holes. And if the service included out of print albums, a la Janis Ian . com , this would be something that sets the standard for the industry. Again.

3. If there's a decent discount / special for .Mac members, it may be the thing that forces me to sign up for that service as well.
 
Missing Peice

How many people only listen to music on their iPods or Macs?

Personally I do about 75% of my listening this way, but there is still the car, my buddys place, or even on my own stereo system.

How is the service going to deal with these issues.

Sure I could (and do) plug my Powerbook or 'pod into my stereo, or use a ****ty iRock FM thingy when on long drives, but these solutions aren't ELEGANT.

And that is what is so damned great about Apple. Seamless integration of tech and elegance.

I think there will be the anouncement of a new gadget that integrates with users home theater/stereo cabnets. Hopefully somthing that uses wi-fi and rendezvous. I can imagine a sleak box with an LCD that would integrate into the stereo cab and come with a remote. It would do many of the things the TiVo home-media option would do, but with a better UI. It would also be controlable from any other mac on the network. May it would even have a large harddrive to store media ON. Maybe it could even access and D/L stuff off the Music-service.

There has to be SOMETHING new and big since all Applestore employees are required to report on May 2nd for training on a new product.

If Apple is still all about the "Digital Hub" idea, something like this is needed. I mean, what is the digital hub currently made up of? An iMac in the center, and a camera, iPod, Printer, phone/PDA, and uh.... yeah, thats IT. Home entertainment needs to be worked into the digial hub idea.

I'd buy one.
 
The Loss of the Album

I think the quality of the tracks that go in between the "hits" depends on the band. I have experienced this "tracks I don't like that grow on me" phenomenon as well, but it has tended to be from fine bands.

All of music will benefit when record companies stop wasting money trying to squeeze blood from a stone and force a crappy prefab band to fill an album. Sometimes a band is only capable of two or three hits. So why waste the money getting them to record an entire album?

On the other hand, good bands with real talent will still record as many good songs as they have in them, and there's also the possibility that they will publish even more music than they would have before, because they are not restrained by the length of a CD.

This may result in even more artistry from recording artists -- we all know a band or two that can just jam at awesome proportions...When I saw Tool in LA they played the two major instrumental tracks on Lateralus at about 175% of original length, and it was utterly awesome...I have a feeling that without time constraints bands like that would publish such sessions -- which are recorded anyway. As well as non-instrumental tracks that wouldn't have made the corporate "album" cut.

Personally, I don't think anyone should have to subject themselves to filler tracks, even if they end up liking them. Only music which comes from an artistic place -- as apposed to corporate requirements -- is worth anything, IMHO.
 
I'm all for the 'album as a whole' concept too, but in the end, it's always up to the listener. If interesting musicians lose interest in creating a collection of songs that work together, I'll assume that whatever they do instead will be cool, too. If Britney wants to just release one megahit every couple months, that's fine too. And if the scheme is as rumored--$0.99/song, $10/album--then as long as there are more than 10 songs, there will a price incentive to go for the whole album versus just a few songs.

If you buy the notion that the concept of an *album* originated with the desire to reproduce performances on demand, then there's no reason people wouldn't want 50 minutes of their favorite band's Appletracks versus the same on CD. And if you think of music as isolated 3.5 minute chunks, it'll work for you too.

I also agree that it'd be way cool if indie bands could just upload an album (and artwork?). The band would probably get a much smaller cut than the major labels per song though. But hey, (potentially global) distribution would definitely be worth Apple's cut of each sale. That'd reduce initial outlay for the band to the cost of recording.

I wouldn't bet on such a utopian system being put in to place on Monday though; probably not until the overall volume of sales makes the majors comfy with some fringe-elements. But hey, they need farm leagues for their rubes.
 
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