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MrSmith said:
Your argument is to the effect that because seeing a white person in black get-up (as Samuel L. Jackson - not to ridicule black people) doesn't offend me I'm a Nazi :confused: Look. It's nothing to do with history. I can't relate such a small thing as that with racial suffering. You are obviously only too willing to be offended. How can there ever be peace and equality with people like you making every little thing a tense political drama?

edit: retract this post. It's visible below in a reply from MrSmith, I know, but this argument is breaking down and I don't want to be part of it.
 
Stinkythe1 said:
Before you gasp :eek:

My brother and I always attend a halloween party as a pair. In the past we've been Gordon Freeman and the G-Man, Gabe and Tycho, Good Ash and bad Ash. You get the idea. So this year we are thinking about going as Jules and Vincent from Pulp Fiction. I will be playing the role of Jules. I am white and I need to turn into Samuel L Jackson. Does anyone know about face makeup and where I could procure an African American hue? I want it to be pretty permenant where it doesn't rub off on clothes yet easily washed off in the shower.

However, I don't want to look like this:

Minstrel_PosterBillyVanWare.jpg


Advice?

ARRGH! Ok I need to breathe!

I'm going to try to be honest, and objective to what I see posted and your intent as posted.

Some points before this gets outta hand.
NOTE:> I'm black, I do have caucasian members in my family in the states, France and England. I was brought up to be an open mind even if I get thrown a mud ball in my afro since I was a kid. However something here appalls me here.

I'm most likely older than you and see things differently. The post you made above, given your from Mississippi - a state that traditionally in history (from what I've read, I'm Canadian) has a LONG history of blantant racism. And you post a caricature like that above. To understand why I might me appalled please visit this site to understand a little more. Take a GOOD look at the photos and the timeline of artistry and how closely it matches yours http://www.ferris.edu/news/jimcrow/caricature/.

That said I have some tips.
1> Its old Hollow e'en! So go out and have fun; Just be careful and avoid ANY confrontation when alone.

2> Historically actors of that error pre 1940's that had attained a darken face actually used shoe shine pollish. Something I would advise against. (You don't want a brother with an already bad attitude finding you in the street after a party).

3> Go to the mall, makeup store with your girlfriend and ask for the DARKEST complexion makeup and use it sparingly across your face. You dont need to cover your neck or under the ears, unless your going for top prize costumes. Some advise dont push your luck and wear white gloves either; trust me on this.

4> DONT go to school like this WITHOUT notifying your teachers and possibly vice principle (if your in Grade School, High School, or College/Uni) as not only would you put yourself in criticism but also faculty, and quite possibly your family & neighborhood under the microscope IF it gets blown outta proportion. PS if you want to have a mustache, steal your mom's mascara, it works - I did this on my face to get into bars when I was 16 (Clubs I didnt have to, I was hooked up).

See I tried REALLY hard to be honest & objective. However, MOD's may I ask to Carefully watch this thread as it can get ugly if mature conversation breaks down.

Thank you.
 
Prom1 said:
See I tried REALLY hard to be honest & objective.
You certainly were. Thanks for the posting and the link.

Prom1 said:
However, MOD's may I ask to Carefully watch this thread as it can get ugly if mature conversation breaks down.
Seeing as you are black and you didn't give the slightest hint at being offended with anything written here there doesn't seem a lot left to be said on the subject. Things get ugly when conversation steers away from rational debate and turns into insults against the perceived character of those participating in the debate. It's difficult not to put up a defence when that happens.
 
NOTE:> I'm black, I do have caucasian members in my family in the states, France and England. I was brought up to be an open mind even if I get thrown a mud ball in my afro since I was a kid. However something here appalls me here.

I took that as a hint he was offended somewhat.

I still think that asking if it is ok for a black person to dress as a white person is a perfectly valid question. Maybe white people didnt have to suffer the same as ethnic minorities in the past - maybe they still dont, but I personally find reverse discrimination bloody annoying. Things like the MOBO awards I find offensive - where are the MOWO awards? I cant see that going down very well, there are also radio stations over here for music of black origin, sure as hell dont get white music radio stations. I actually think these things are detrimental towards race relations as they preach that there are differences based on the colour of skin and create yet another divide.

Another question - would people find it offensive if he wanted to dress as an italian? or an austrian in lederhosen? or wear a cork hat and pretend to be australian? All stereotypes, but they are ok because it doesnt involve a change in skin colour? As far as I can tell the bloke just wants to go to a party dressed as Samuel L Jackson, not bring back segregation.
 
Foggy said:
I took that as a hint he was offended somewhat.
I believe he was referring to the caricature; which, if you read the link, is understandable.
 
Foggy said:
I actually think these things are detrimental towards race relations as they preach that there are differences based on the colour of skin and create yet another divide.

Skin colour is a mark of difference. Not an innate difference, but a difference nonetheless, socially constructed by White people. The discourse of 'colour-blindness' is an attempt to obscure these differences because they continue to benefit White people.

Some of the posters here are clearly speaking from a position of white privilege: you find 'reverse discrimination bloody annoying', while MrSmith can't relate black face to racial suffering himself, so concludes that people are just 'too willing to be offended'. Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the comments in this thread, especially those from British members.
 
Jimmini jillickers, here we go again.:rolleyes:

BRIZE said:
Skin colour is a mark of difference.
Black and white and yellow and every other colour are different. Period. Whether skin colour or car colour. A mark of difference? As opposed to a non-mark of difference? This has no meaning.

BRIZE said:
Not an innate difference,
So...the Colour Fairy paints babies' skins while they're asleep?

BRIZE said:
but a difference nonetheless, socially constructed by White people.
All the laws of physics governing wave frequencies, colour perception, what-have-you, are rubbish. It's the White Man who does it all.

BRIZE said:
The discourse of 'colour-blindness' is an attempt to obscure these differences because they continue to benefit White people.
I think people of all nationalities are individuals and not to be despised purely because of some genetic difference. This includes the notion of considering whites and blacks as equal = the colour difference is not important to me = I don't see the colour difference. But you're saying I mustn't think that way because I'm a whitey (sorry, Whitey) and thinking that way benefits me? So I shouldn't be colour-blind. What should I think then? "You're a different colour to me...but I like you anyway"? But at the beginning I thought you said colour differences are 'not innate' and were invented by the White man.

BRIZE said:
Some of the posters here are clearly speaking from a position of white privilege
For example? You know these people personally? Or are you saying they're privileged purely because they're white?

BRIZE said:
you find 'reverse discrimination bloody annoying'
And you, presumably, find it perfectly acceptable without any sense of hypocrisy at all.

BRIZE said:
while MrSmith can't relate black face to racial suffering himself, so concludes that people are just 'too willing to be offended'
I was born white. I can't help it. Whether I'm privileged compared to others is a matter of opinion. Personally I can't think of any reason why I should be so considered.

The black faces in question were, firstly, one the OP wanted to wear to a fancy dress party - which, no, I can't relate to black suffering. I know there was black suffering, but I don't see the connection. Or maybe the OP is a reincarnation of Hitler, eh? The second is the picture at the top, which is intrinsically funny but which I said somewhere above I could understand being offensive after reading the linked article (the contents of which I was largely ignorant).

My comments about 'being too willing to be offended' were a direct, knee-jerk reaction to another poster for what I perceived to be an unfair, unwarranted attack towards me. However, the same may be extended in your direction. You accuse some of the people here of offending your sensibilities but offer no concrete examples. You've clearly jumped on some bandwagon of discontentment, seemingly without any rational thought whatsoever, and quite prepared to make sweeping statements about people you don't even know.

BRIZE said:
Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the comments in this thread, especially those from British members.
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

Oh, funnily enough, my wife is Asian, so it's unlikely I'm a closet Adolf. And I'm sure as hell not overly sensitive about the colour of her skin either. Sorry, but after all these years I got the dreaded colour-blindness.
 
Brize said:
Skin colour is a mark of difference. Not an innate difference, but a difference nonetheless, socially constructed by White people. The discourse of 'colour-blindness' is an attempt to obscure these differences because they continue to benefit White people.

Some of the posters here are clearly speaking from a position of white privilege: you find 'reverse discrimination bloody annoying', while MrSmith can't relate black face to racial suffering himself, so concludes that people are just 'too willing to be offended'. Frankly, I'm appalled by some of the comments in this thread, especially those from British members.

So discrimination is a nono but reverse discrimination is fine? I should be fine with it because others have suffered far worse and I because I am white and therefore am privileged?!?

Hold on - just got to go pull this silver spoon out my arse and go yell at Jeeves to get the Rolls.
 
Wow! I've read this entire thread and I have to say I am disappointed. It is pretty clear that not only have people failed to learn about the history of this nation, but they choose to see what they want. I've lived in many different countries and I've lived in the southern (Georgia) part of the US. I think it would be in poor tasted to go in Black Face to a party. Case in point Tedd Dason decided to appear at a roast in Black Face and caused a fire storm in 1993.

It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with social sensitivity. It may be time for me to reduce the amount of time I visit MacRumors.
 
kasei said:
Wow! I've read this entire thread and I have to say I am disappointed. It is pretty clear that not only have people failed to learn about the history of this nation, but they choose to see what they want. I've lived in many different countries and I've lived in the southern (Georgia) part of the US. I think it would be in poor tasted to go in Black Face to a party. Case in point Tedd Dason decided to appear at a roast in Black Face and caused a fire storm in 1993.

It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with social sensitivity. It may be time for me to reduce the amount of time I visit MacRumors.

Not being funny but the bloke specifically has said he doesn't want to look like he has gone in 'Black Face', he is wants to go dressed as Samuel L Jackson. I could see exactly why people would find it offensive if he wanted to go in make up looking like that picture he posted, which is why I am assuming he doesn't want to look like that.

I personally see it as no more racist him wanting to go as Samuel L Jackson as I would see it as being sexist if he wanted to go dressed as Uma Thurman.
 
Foggy said:
Not being funny but the bloke specifically has said he doesn't want to look like he has gone in 'Black Face', he is wants to go dressed as Samuel L Jackson. I could see exactly why people would find it offensive if he wanted to go in make up looking like that picture he posted, which is why I am assuming he doesn't want to look like that.

I personally see it as no more racist him wanting to go as Samuel L Jackson as I would see it as being sexist if he wanted to go dressed as Uma Thurman.

You are right. He did say he didn't want to go in Black Face. However the followup posts leave little to imagination.
 
kasei said:
You are right. He did say he didn't want to go in Black Face. However the followup posts leave little to imagination.

Perhaps if he had not used the linked picture that illustrated a time in our (US) history that was shamefully racist there may have not been an uproar.

I found the image to be unnecessary and think it would have been just fine to say "Samual L Jackson".

Did we really need the image?

No insult intended on the OP but the south, as progressive as they'd like to believe they are, is still livin in a different time...
 
Threads like these either degrade into senseless angry, defensive attacks or just get silly. I opt for the latter:
blackpeopleloveus

Apologies and thanks to MrSmith. As much as I disagree with him, I mistakenly identified him as a BNP voter because of his response to one of my posts (there was a BNP voter on this thread, but NOT MrSmith). I spent some good time in North London in the 90's doing anti-fascist/skinhead 'activism' some of which was direct action against BNP. I've outgrown the physical side of this (not to mention I'm no longer near the beautiful streets of Holloway), but just the mention got my blood boiling. In other words: apologies for losing my temper.:eek:
 
MrSmith said:
This includes the notion of considering whites and blacks as equal = the colour difference is not important to me = I don't see the colour difference.

The problem is that White people and Black people aren't equal: Black people don't have access to the same opportunities as White people, and are far more likely to experience discrimination in education, employment, the criminal justice system, etc. Your over-literal interpretation of 'equality' only serves to obscure the structures of oppression that continue to marginalise and disenfranchise Black people and other people of colour.

MrSmith said:
The second is the picture at the top, which is intrinsically funny but which I said somewhere above I could understand being offensive after reading the linked article (the contents of which I was largely ignorant).

Intrinsically funny? I'm not sure that you understand the concept of intrinsicism, but regardless, you won't be surprised to learn that I don't share your sense of humour.

MrSmith said:
You've clearly jumped on some bandwagon of discontentment, seemingly without any rational thought whatsoever, and quite prepared to make sweeping statements about people you don't even know.

First, I'd like to think that my personal commitment to anti-racism is more long-standing than 'jumping on a bandwagon' would imply. Second, it's nothing more than vacuous rhetoric to suggest that those who don't share your views are not thinking rationally. Finally, I don't need to know you personally to establish that (a) you're White, (b) White people occupy a position of privilege relative to Black people, and (c) the discourses that you and others have employed in this thread are ethnocentric.
 
MrSmith said:
I was born white. I can't help it. Whether I'm privileged compared to others is a matter of opinion. Personally I can't think of any reason why I should be so considered.

Let's start here.

As for reverse discrimination, look. Everyone is prejudiced. Fact is, it's hard for the disempowered to discriminate against the empowered in a socially meaningful way. Certainly you'll grant there's a stark difference between discrimination and prejudice.
 
Koodauw said:
what about going as Steve Irwin and a Stingray? or is that not PC either?


If he wanted to be actually offensive he'd dress up as a Milkman and an Amish girl...

but no person who has any sort of soul would do that...
 
yojitani: respect.

Well, I don't know what more I can say. I'm just one guy trying to earn enough dough to raise his family peacefully. Since there's no prejudice in what I teach them I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong according to you guys. Is it because I don't think enough about racial inequality? I'm certainly not denying the history of black oppression any more than I'd deny the Holocaust.

I'm not sure what is ethnocentric here. Ethnocentric: evaluating other peoples and cultures according to the standards of one's own culture. I think that's a natural inclination for humans since we are surrounded by our culture from the day we're born and it shapes us. I drink alcohol and I would defend my right to drink it. Is that ethnocentric? Because Islam forbids it.

That picture is funny intrinsically because of the exaggerated eyes and mouth, much as this is:

solange-goggle-eyed.jpg


Not because it resembles a black person. That's what I mean by intrinsically funny. There's no associated humour reference, if you see what I mean. [but see * below]

I really don't think I could function if I was as hung up about my privileges as some of you seem to be. It's hard enough to get through day-to-day. I'm not denying or confirming color privileges exist, any more than male privileges exist. But I'm just not hung up on things like those listed in the article. Man, I'd go mad if I was obsessed enough to make a list like that.

*Socially insensitive? I had a thought late last night which perhaps helped me see where some of you are coming from. Suppose someone turned up at my door in a wheelchair and said they'd come to my fancy dress party as an invalid. That I can understand and maybe that is what I'm missing here, although in that case it's being disrespectful to a handicap, i.e. something regrettable that the subject would rather not have.

Out of interest, does anyone find Borat offensive?

And where's Prom1's voice?
 
MrSmith: Thanks for your considered post.

MrSmith said:
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong according to you guys. Is it because I don't think enough about racial inequality?

I think it's important to at least recognise that people of colour continue to get a rough deal; arguably, ignoring inequality is as bad as denying it. In this particular instance, you couldn't find anything wrong with the OP's question or the image he posted - you found it funny in fact - and you therefore couldn't understand why anyone else might find it offensive or problematic until provided with some historical context.

No, it's not ethnocentric to drink alcohol or defend your right to do so, because, referring back to the definition you posted, you've merely acknowledged that drinking alcohol is forbidden by Islam; you're not evaluating another culture from the perspective of your own.

The only thing intrinsic to the image posted above is the exaggerated eyes and lips. The humour that you find in the image is entirely subjective; personally, I find it to be grotesque, offensive and somewhat unsettling: the character in black face looks to be on the verge of tears.

MrSmith said:
Out of interest, does anyone find Borat offensive?

See here for some responses to that question:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,1931712,00.html
 
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