Bloomberg: Apple's 5G iPhone Still on Schedule for Fall Launch, But Future Products Could Be Delayed

[I7guy]

Apple could do it if it wanted to. It just likes its profit margins too much, that's all.

Moving production to the USA would be a tremendous jobs creator. You'd actually see a substantial jump in GDP. That's how big of an effect it would be.

However, there's something else that your statement reveals: that it would cost more here. You mean that it would reflect the reality of a fair wage with worker protections vs the worker abuse that occurs in China?

Apple could readily eat the additional cost and make these products here in the USA. They just choose profits over people, that's all. You underestimate the production efficiencies that could be reached in the USA.

Foxconn moving to the US is not as easy as you make it out to be in your post. Apple will never be a manufacturing company.

And as far as Apple eating the cost, you could certainly take a pay cut and still put food in your mouth? Right?

As far as worker abuse, still exists in the US, so what is your point?

Apple doesn't choose profits over people; that is a meme at this point. What Apple did is they chose a manufacturing partner that will work with them as needed.

 

[lkalliance]

Given that this rumor is about the iPhone 12 (I assume), I wonder what that means tangentially for the SE2/9/whatever that rumors had launching...right about now. If iPhone 12 is supposedly not going to be delayed, and if the release workflow had advanced reasonably far on the SE2, I wonder how delayed that will be (assuming, of course, that the rumors about it have been true).

 

[IPPlanMan]

"Apple could do it if it wanted to. It just likes its profit margins too much, that's all."

Oh, is that all? Perhaps you can speak with some authority on Apple's reasonable GPMs (along with NPMs), that have decreased over the years, and what functions they support internal to Apple?


"Moving production to the USA would be a tremendous jobs creator. You'd actually see a substantial jump in GDP. That's how big of an effect it would be."

How would that happen and who would pay for it? Where would the hundreds of thousands of people come from? Subsidized by the US government, similar to China? Would it take the many years that China has invested to get to the point where they are now. How many years for the US?


"However, there's something else that your statement reveals: that it would cost more here. You mean that it would reflect the reality of a fair wage with worker protections vs the worker abuse that occurs in China?"

Can you speak with authority on Chinese cost of living in concert with the wages production workers earn. Please give some concrete details on a handful of typical costs (over a variety of categories), along with wages.


"Apple could readily eat the additional cost and make these products here in the USA. They just choose profits over people, that's all. You underestimate the production efficiencies that could be reached in the USA."

Readily... It sounds like you've engaged in some detailed analyses to come to that conclusion. Can you report specific details, costs, timelines, populations, and other factors to support your assertion, along with the added costs to the consumer, with detail? Also, pleaser discuss these production efficiencies, in detail, in the US that you believe I underestimate.

From your post it sounds like your an expert on matters such as these and being able to make blanket assertions. Can you talk about your education and hands-on experience that gives you that ability? Perhaps it is similar to Tim Cooks?

Profits are just that. Profits. It's the revenue remaining after all costs are paid. These costs include labor, material costs, debt interest, taxes, etc. There's gross profit, operating profit and net profit. Each has its own descriptors and inclusions but you get the point.

Apple makes profits hand over fist. That's not-debatable. What they choose to do with that money is a reflection of their priorities and values. Again, this is money after they've paid for everything.

Can Apple afford to have lower margins? Absolutely.
Can Apple afford to have lower profits? Absolutely.

Of note, Apple is posting these profits even as it buys back Billions of Dollars worth of stock. It could put that money into building manufacturing plants here, but priorities you know.

If I have to get into a discussion on worker abuse in China, you're not going to like where it goes, so let's leave that aside. Suffice to say, Apple effectively condones the poor treatment of these workers by producing its products there. That doesn't have to happen, and it's an affirmative decision on the part of Apple.

Production efficiencies are established over time. I don't share your lack of faith in Apple's ability to manufacture at volume for a nominal cost increase that decreases over time, and which it can readily absorb.

Maybe you could ask Tim Cook to share those analyses with you while you're at it. I doubt you have.

 

[alphaswift]

It's not gonna sell. Absolutely nobody needs an iPhone with incremental features this year.

Wait a year. Bring out a better bigger new iPhone when we all have survived.

Nope. I plan on replacing my X and S3 watch as soon as the new stuff is available.
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Is the smallest version rumored to lack any of features available on the biggest model?

The cameras always have less features/lenses.

 

[JSchlik]

I’m still rocking my 7+. I am holding out for carriers to subsidize phones again. I just don’t have $1000 to spend on the phone.

 

[arkmannj]

I wonder where we sit with the iPhone9/SE2

 

[chucker23n1]

I don't see why Apple isn't moving production back to America and sourcing parts exclusively from American companies.

Because this isn’t 1960, and the massive production facilities in the US no longer exist.

 

[IPPlanMan]

Foxconn moving to the US is not as easy as you make it out to be in your post. Apple will never be a manufacturing company.

And as far as Apple eating the cost, you could certainly take a pay cut and still put food in your mouth? Right?

As far as worker abuse, still exists in the US, so what is your point?

Apple doesn't choose profits over people; that is a meme at this point. What Apple did is they chose a manufacturing partner that will work with them as needed.

I never said it was easy. I said it would be worth it.

Apple can definitely afford to eat the cost. It's called profits for a reason. It's money that's left over after all expenses have been paid. It's built these monuments to itself at tremendous expense. It uses billions of dollars for stock buybacks. It can definitely afford to eat the cost.

If you're going to put worker abuse in the USA and worker abuse in China in the same sentence and equivocate about it, I don't know what to tell you.

Apple decided that the worker abuses that occur in China (and other human rights abuses that occur there) are worth it so that its devices can be made at a certain price. I'm willing to pay a little more for a period of time (assuming Apple doesn't eat the whole cost) so that doesn't happen, but ultimately cost efficiencies are reached over time. You aren't.
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Because this isn’t 1960, and the massive production facilities in the US no longer exist.

Maybe they should. Apple could be a leader on this, if it chose to be.

 

[Speedy2]

Apple could do it if it wanted to. It just likes its profit margins too much, that's all.
[...]
Apple could readily eat the additional cost and make these products here in the USA. They just choose profits over people, that's all. You underestimate the production efficiencies that could be reached in the USA.

No they couldn't. The shareholders would immediately fire any management that does this.

The basic principle of capitalism is to maximize profits. It's demanded by the market and the shareholders.
If you don't comply, the market will weed you out. Period.

Either get rid of that principle or forget about moving production to a more expensive place, just because it creates jobs there. There's absolutely no gain in that for the company.

Also, Tim Cook has rightly pointed out numerous times that it's not just the cheaper wages. It's the whole grown infrastructure there. China is not the cheap labor dump it used to be 20 years ago. There's a huge high tech industry in place. Plus, they have the mineral resources and the industry to process them just around the corner.
None of these companies belong to Apple and they can't just force all that infrastructure to move their booties to another place, just for American jobs.

And now, if you think that the government could force them, good luck with that! They can't enforce any of this just like that. It needs to be build up over decades, and the US chose not to do that.

 

[Rainshadow]

The detail about signing bonuses to attract new workers concerns me somewhat. If people have well-founded reasons to be uncomfortable going back to work and need to be enticed to do so, I’d rather Apple respect those feelings and delay as much as is necessary. Some things are more important than a new phone.

true, but often people are unreasonably timid and scared. Some Folks will need to be coaxed out of their caves once this thing is done. Others may run out hollering.

 

[IPPlanMan]

No they couldn't. The shareholders would immediately fire any management that does this.

The basic principle of capitalism is to maximize profits. It's demanded by the market and the shareholders.
If you don't comply, the market will weed you out. Period.

Either get rid of that principle or forget about moving production to a more expensive place, just because it creates jobs there. There's absolutely no gain in that for the company.

Also, Tim Cook has rightly pointed out numerous times that it's not just the cheaper wages. It's the whole grown infrastructure there. China is not the cheap labor dump it used to be 20 years ago. There's a huge high tech industry in place. Plus, they have the mineral resources and the industry to process them just around the corner.
None of these companies belong to Apple and they can't just force all that infrastructure to move their booties to another place, just for American jobs.

And now, if you think that the government could force them, good luck with that! They can't enforce any of this just like that. It needs to be build up over decades, and the US chose not to do that.

Then Apple has turned into the company that Steve was afraid it would turn into. It's become about the money instead of values, and that's a shame. Steve wasn't afraid to tell shareholders that there was a greater purpose to something. Tim on the other hand wants to see good numbers, and he puts that above all.... even above the values that Apple should embody and lead on.

Apple could make a conscious choice to build in America and effectively shame the other manufacturers who don't. It could afford to eat this cost, and if I paid slightly more for an iPhone if Apple doesn't want to eat all of it until cost efficiencies are reached, that's fine with me.

You create jobs here, you have taxes paid here. Those taxes paid will fund roads, schools, and other infrastructure investment needs that create more jobs here, which then generates more taxes paid... and it's a positive feedback loop.

China is a labor dump. Not only that, it's a repressive regime which abuses its people. By manufacturing in China, Apple condones these abuses.

That's right, none of these companies belong to Apple.... But Apple could establish manufacturing here at scale if it invested in it.

Could Government force them? Absolutely it could, but it didn't. It gave Apple a huge tax break... and Apple spent it on stock buybacks.

The big winner in Apple’s tax cut: Wall Street, not workers.

Apple is spending even more of its huge tax cut on Wall Street stock buybacks

www.vox.com

By Tripling Its Stock Buybacks, Apple Robs Workers And The Economy

In the first half of 2018, since the passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, Apple has tripled its share repurchases, benefiting executives and shareholders over workers whose spending is vital to the health of the overall economy.

www.forbes.com

That never should have been allowed. Apple should have been restricted from using this money for stock buybacks. That money could have funded new plants and manufacturing here. Oh well.

 

[Rainshadow]

I never said it was easy. I said it would be worth it.

Apple can definitely afford to eat the cost. It's called profits for a reason. It's money that's left over after all expenses have been paid. It's built these monuments to itself at tremendous expense. It uses billions of dollars for stock buybacks. It can definitely afford to eat the cost.

If you're going to put worker abuse in the USA and worker abuse in China in the same sentence and equivocate about it, I don't know what to tell you.

Apple decided that the worker abuses that occur in China (and other human rights abuses that occur there) are worth it so that its devices can be made at a certain price. I'm willing to pay a little more for a period of time (assuming Apple doesn't eat the whole cost) so that doesn't happen, but ultimately cost efficiencies are reached over time. You aren't.
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Maybe they should. Apple could be a leader on this, if it chose to be.

you realize if we manufactured everything here, we would almost CERTAINLY have a lapse year for the iPhone. All businesses in America = all eggs in one basket. Dumb idea. Spread out your goods and it also has the unintended (but equally as good) benefit of preventing unnecessary wars when you have large amounts of trade with another powerful country.

 

[IPPlanMan]

you realize if we manufactured everything here, we would almost CERTAINLY have a lapse year for the iPhone. All businesses in America = all eggs in one basket. Dumb idea. Spread out your goods and it also has the unintended (but equally as good) benefit of preventing unnecessary wars when you have large amounts of trade with another powerful country.

I agree with distribution of risk. However, I'd prefer to have an American-owned company manufacturing abroad than a foreign owned company manufacturing abroad.

However, I imagine it could be possible to practice social distancing during manufacturing, albeit at a reduced production rate. So people would have to wait an extra week for their phones. They'll get over it.

 

[Mosey Potter]

Getting a new phone during this time is the lowest of priorities for me right now. Getting much needed money to family members who have lost jobs and face serious uncertainty is far, far more important. If you just can’t live without the newest Apple product I understand. This was me maybe 20 years ago when tech was giving us incredible product updates every year. Now you can live just fine with older technology. Hell, my MacBook Pro is a 2010 model and it still does what I need it to do for my small business. Like I said, my priorities lie with keeping loved ones alive right now. Apple will survive just fine without my money for the time being and when the danger has passed then and only then will I be able to think about getting a new toy. Hang in there folks, we have a very difficult road in front of us.

 

[MacLoveMacHate]

Yeah, well...alot can change between now and September. China is on the rebound, which is good, but things have Not stabilized in North America. If anything, I still suspect we might see a later post launch like mid/late November, but it’s still so early to tell given the current situation.

No matter what, I doubt the ‘2020 iPhone’ is really on the consumers mind right now, it’s probably more about saving their resources/money v.s. focusing on upgrading their phone, which will probably be a last resort.

Yeah, pushing it back to better position the phone as a Christmas gift rather when who-knows-what-the-economy-will-look-like in September makes sense over releasing a phone to a struggling economy on time or pushing it to next year.

 

[I7guy]

Then Apple has turned into the company that Steve was afraid it would turn into.

Steve turned Apple into that company and Tim inherited the entire kit-and-kaboodle.

It's become about the money instead of values, and that's a shame. Steve wasn't afraid to tell shareholders that there was a greater purpose to something. Tim on the other hand wants to see good numbers, and he puts that above all.... even above the values that Apple should embody and lead on.

Apple could make a conscious choice to build in America and effectively shame the other manufacturers who don't. It could afford to eat this cost, and if I paid slightly more for an iPhone if Apple doesn't want to eat all of it until cost efficiencies are reached, that's fine with me.

You create jobs here, you have taxes paid here. Those taxes paid will fund roads, schools, and other infrastructure investment needs that create more jobs here, which then generates more taxes paid... and it's a positive feedback loop.

China is a labor dump. Not only that, it's a repressive regime which abuses its people. By manufacturing in China, Apple condones these abuses.

That's right, none of these companies belong to Apple.... But Apple could establish manufacturing here at scale if it invested in it.

Could Government force them? Absolutely it could, but it didn't. It gave Apple a huge tax break... and Apple spent it on stock buybacks.....

That never should have been allowed. Apple should have been restricted from using this money for stock buybacks. That money could have funded new plants and manufacturing here. Oh well.

Okay, it's your opinion and I want to discuss the "money" aspect. The money is because Tim Cook gave the people what they wanted. With the exception of a vocal minority, people are buying Apple products. Enough people are buying to propel the company to north of $1T. That should tell you all you need to know about Apple values, money and profits.

However, what I wrote doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I would like to see manufacturing reborn in America, but it was clear the carbon credits really were the nail in the coffin.

 

[IPPlanMan]

Steve turned Apple into that company and Tim inherited the entire kit-and-kaboodle.


Okay, it's your opinion and I want to discuss the "money" aspect. The money is because Tim Cook gave the people what they wanted. With the exception of a vocal minority, people are buying Apple products. Enough people are buying to propel the company to north of $1T. That should tell you all you need to know about Apple values, money and profits.

However, what I wrote doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I would like to see manufacturing reborn in America, but it was clear the carbon credits really were the nail in the coffin.

Steve gave the people what he wanted, and that's the difference here. He wasn't afraid to take a strong stance on things.

In fact, Steve was able to convince people that they actually wanted what he wanted... or that they had a need for what he wanted, even before they knew they had a need or a want for it. Steve wasn't afraid to stand on principle and say no. Unfortunately, Tim Cook doesn't share that trait, even after he's propelled Apple into the value/cash stratosphere.

Tim has made money, yes. But Apple has lost is soul about being for the greater good in the name of placating investors and Wall Street.... and the greater good here for the USA (and the world frankly) would be for Apple to tell China to pound sand and for Apple build its products in the USA using American companies with full worker protections and fair wages. That's true leadership and that should be what Apple leads on. By worrying about what the Competition does, that's what followers do and that's not Apple's way... or at least it didn't use to be.

I agree with you. Carbon Credits are a total scam.

 

[fbr$]

Apple could make a conscious choice to build in America and effectively shame the other manufacturers who don't. It could afford to eat this cost, and if I paid slightly more for an iPhone if Apple doesn't want to eat all of it until cost efficiencies are reached, that's fine with me.

You create jobs here, you have taxes paid here. Those taxes paid will fund roads, schools, and other infrastructure investment needs that create more jobs here, which then generates more taxes paid... and it's a positive feedback loop.

And what about non-American Apple's customers in all the rest of the world, they will have to pay an even higher price on Apple's devices to help jobs and infrastructure in your country?

 

[I7guy]

Steve gave the people what he wanted, and that's the difference here. He wasn't afraid to take a strong stance on things.

I can't help it if people are still stuck in the SJ world. Things are not like that in 2020. And Apple is a different company than it was in 2011. By every measure, the are the most successful company on the face of the planet.

In fact, Steve was able to convince people that they actually wanted what he wanted... or that they had a need for what he wanted, even before they knew they had a need or a want for it. Steve wasn't afraid to stand on principle and say no. Unfortunately, Tim Cook doesn't share that trait, even after he's propelled Apple into the value/cash stratosphere.

Tim Cook didn't propel Apple. He gave the people what they wanted to buy. Customers bought and stock went up.

Tim has made money, yes. But Apple has lost is soul about being for the greater good

What kind of idealogical nonsense is this? Apple was never for the greater good as evidence by the very many not so nice SJ did.

in the name of placating investors and Wall Street.... and the greater good here for the USA (and the world frankly) would be for Apple to tell China to pound sand and for Apple build its products in the USA using American companies with full worker protections and fair wages. That's true leadership and that should be what Apple leads on. By worrying about what the Competition does, that's what followers do and that's not Apple's way... or at least it didn't use to be.

Steve Jobs started this entire Foxconn thing and it's been beneficial for Foxconn and Apple. While there are some who would like this to change, the reality is, it probably won't.

I agree with you. Carbon Credits are a total scam.

Yep!

 

[IPPlanMan]

And what about non-American Apple's customers in all the rest of the world, they will have to pay an even higher price on Apple's devices to help jobs and infrastructure in your country?

Apple's building of products in China where workers are abused/not paid fair wages and also where the people are repressed is antithetical to American values in my opinion... Frankly, it should be against Apple's values as well, or at least it used to be.

Apple could lead on this if it chose to, and it could make these products built in America affordable worldwide. Unfortunately, it's chosen a different path, and that's a shame.

Would the economic benefits of building in America be realized primarily in America? Of course. It's an American company.

 

[nostresshere]

I see a very high percentage of HOURLY workers with newer iphones. And of course, on payment plans. These people will not be able to even pay for the existing phone and will not be buying a new shiny one.

 

[jjohnstonjr]

My ignorance of how 5G is transmitted and what it “causes” will make me hold off on getting this one. Been reading(maybe too much) about some of the things associated with 5G. Sure having a phone in your pocket, using a microwave to heat up your food and so much more can cause stuff as well but I’m not knowingly(or unknowingly depending on how you look at it) going to walk into this one blindly. My fandom for Apple stops here for a moment. Anyways I recently purchased a unlocked iPhone 11 Pro Max and I feel I need to get my money’s worth from this baby here. Just my two cents...

 

[fbr$]

Apple's building of products in China where workers are abused/not paid fair wages and also where the people are repressed is antithetical to American values in my opinion... Frankly, it should be against Apple's values as well, or at least it used to be.

Apple could lead on this if it chose to, and it could make these products built in America affordable worldwide. Unfortunately, it's chosen a different path, and that's a shame.

Would the economic benefits of building in America be realized primarily in America? Of course. It's an American company.

"Build in America" is not the opposite of "build in China".

The opposite of "build in China" is "not build in China", which means "build in any country of the world but China".

 

[IPPlanMan]

"Build in America" is not the opposite of "build in China".

The opposite of "build in China" is "not build in China", which means "build in any country of the world but China".

As an American, I would like American companies to build in America. I would like them to employ Americans and anyone else who wants to legally immigrate here and work here. It's ok to have that opinion.
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I can't help it if people are still stuck in the SJ world. Things are not like that in 2020. And Apple is a different company than it was in 2011. By every measure, the are the most successful company on the face of the planet.


Tim Cook didn't propel Apple. He gave the people what they wanted to buy. Customers bought and stock went up.


What kind of idealogical nonsense is this? Apple was never for the greater good as evidence by the very many not so nice SJ did.


Steve Jobs started this entire Foxconn thing and it's been beneficial for Foxconn and Apple. While there are some who would like this to change, the reality is, it probably won't.


Yep!

Apple can be whatever company it wants to be. It has the money to act on its values. In this case, its values have become lost to the money it's made.

Apple used to build computers in Elk Grove, CA: https://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2004/04/12/daily22.html

You knew that right?

It should be "Designed and Built by Apple in California".... or any other state it wants to do it in.

Steve would have the courage to take production out of China at this point. Tim just doesn't.

 

[chucker23n1]

Apple's building of products in China where workers are abused/not paid fair wages and also where the people are repressed is antithetical to American values in my opinion... Frankly, it should be against Apple's values as well, or at least it used to be.

When? It was under Jobs that the factories in Cork and Fremont closed.
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Apple used to build computers in Elk Grove, CA: https://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2004/04/12/daily22.html

You knew that right?

It should be "Designed and Built by Apple in California".... or any other state it wants to do it in.

Steve would have the courage to take production out of China at this point. Tim just doesn't.

Sounds like you’re answering your own question. It was literally Steve, not Tim, who killed Elk Grove.