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It is going to be interesting. However one of the many reasons I prefer Macs is that they can run anything. I can use VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox or even Bootcamp to run and develop for Linux and Windows at nearly native speeds. Moving to ARM would most likely eliminate that option. I don't know how big of group that is, but I do know that Macs have become many developers primary systems because of that ability.
Precisely. Apple had better have taken this into account and permit Windows/Linux/etc. to run natively. Otherwise they're only fooling themselves in the long term.

if we could only count all the times “Apple is doomed” has been predicted because of a change in processor architecture… 😅
Um, once? Maybe none? I'm not old enough to recall the transition to PowerPC, but I don't recall a huge negative push-back against the switch to Intel. It was a pretty positive reception with a lot of upsides. ARM has its benefits, but it also has plenty of practical drawbacks (see above). You speak as though Apple changes processor architecture every couple of years... it is kind of a big deal.

I bet I know what your posts in the first iPad,Apple Watch, and AirPods unveilings looked like.
It's cute how you proceed to completely trivialize someone else simply because they disagree with your viewpoint.
 
Doesn't matter if it can't run any essential software. And hardly anyone would want to develop for it.

Oh, wait for it.
On linux this is a non issue. And Apple has done that _twice_ now. They could totally virtualize x86, and they will. Again, wait for it.
 
I was actually thinking that this would have been the strategy to build a version of iOS that looks like macOS but is in no way related. Similarly to how OS X was built to look like classic MacOS, but were in no related except for processor compatibility. What that would likely mean though either Apple brings Xcode to iOS as a self hosting environment to build apps natively; or it would require you still build apps from a traditional Intel Mac. Why think this is, Apple would be pushing the first A Series Mac as a consumer device similar to the iPad and iPhone. It’s not intended to be a pro machine.
 
This is going to be the death of the Mac computers as a whole. Arm Macs won’t have any compatability with any of the software available until the software developers update their software and most will be left behind. Microsoft tried to transition to ARM with the Surface Pro X and Windows 10 on ARM has been a failure. I expect this to fail as well, especially since ARM will probably not have the same performance for all tasks compared to X86-64.

Not to mention some of us actually do use bootcamp to run applications on the same hardware that we do the MacOS.
Windows ARM is not really a thing in my enterprise to boot.
 
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He basically said "ARMs can't do what I need and neither what my PC can do".
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Oh yeah, nice comparison, a little app for simple tasks on both devices. How cute.

Now try a game with both, but has to run with UHD graphics and high FPS. The iPhone will not even run it. *evil laugh*.

My benchmark is games like F1 2019 and first person high quality shooter games. If it can run these games with top quality, then you have a winner. but ARM will never do it.

That may be your bench mark. But the iOS community of gamers dwarfs the PC gamer eco-system and other 'tired' 'high quality' bobbing gun shooter games. (See Doom Eternal. Is that any better than Doom 3?)

I find most PC games quite tedious. I prefer the old school 'concept' games of iOS tickle my fancy more.

I personally think many iOS games are far more original in concept and style of graphics.

A 'little' app that is the initial trickle or test of concept for iPad to Mac conversion is just the beginning. Not an end point.

The option to buy a fully fledged PC for 'bobbing fun' style games is still there. And will be made a cheaper option with the PS5 et al.

That doesn't make that the casual gamer market is going away or not going to improve as the iPhone and iPad reach ever faster levels of hard ware.

Many ideas can seem quaint in the beginning. But the iOS juggernaut rolls on. The next to be squashed under neath it...

...is the 'Mac' as we know it.

Azrael.
 
What makes you so strongly linked to Intel?

I can answer for some: applications - some developers are still butthurt over the whole opengl to metal conversion and simply dropped the Mac altogether and stayed with Windows on x86. This is a way I can run both sides without having
to purchase an additional machine just to run windows x86 software that by necessity I must use. If I was a hobbyist
without professional needs I suppose I could get away with it but why not use an iPad since that's basically an apple
touch computer that doesn't use x86 processors?
 
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I know I will be dis-regarded as 1% and that I don't matter, but this change will most likely stop me from buying a new Mac. I can do 99% of what I need the internet for on my phone (or iPad). The only thing I needed a computer for was playing games (which is the vast amount of my time on a computer or tablet). With Intel, I could bootcamp if I needed to, now I cant. I preferred stay in the Mac environment whenever possible, even when it cost more, but I still had options that worked. Having been through processor changes and played with all kinds of emulation, it never works for games.

I have been an Apple fan since I started work on a IIfx when my printing company started in electronic pre-press. I even kept to Apple the whole 12 years I worked for "the enemy" and got all my certs.

I'm right there with you buddy. I am very deep in the Apple ecosystem, with my ideal setup of a Mac Mini, iPad Pro, and iPhone. I do very much prefer to use MacOS when I am at my desk. However, I bootcamp my Mac Mini and have an eGPU for my PC gaming on windows, and it's great. Sure, I could build a dedicated PC, but I like the simplicity of my one desktop setup so much.
 
Potentially, but Apple is going to do what is best for business. Maybe that is make concessions to keep all the legacy stuff in play, or maybe they push forward and force people to adapt. People can't hold on to old paradigms forever.

Yup.

Azrael.
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I can answer for some: applications - some developers are still butthurt over the whole opengl to metal conversion and simply dropped the Mac altogether and stayed with Windows on x86. This is a way I can run both sides without having
to purchase an additional machine just to run windows x86 software that by necessity I must use. If I was a hobbyist
without professional needs I suppose I could get away with it but why not use an iPad since that's basically an apple
touch computer that doesn't use x86 processors?

If they dropped the Mac because they couldn't keep rolling out their inferior Open GL conversions...then we don't need them.

Azrael.
 
That may be your bench mark. But the iOS community of gamers dwarfs the PC gamer eco-system and other 'tired' 'high quality' bobbing gun shooter games. (See Doom Eternal. Is that any better than Doom 3?)

I find most PC games quite tedious. I prefer the old school 'concept' games of iOS tickle my fancy more.

I personally think many iOS games are far more original in concept and style of graphics.

A 'little' app that is the initial trickle or test of concept for iPad to Mac conversion is just the beginning. Not an end point.

The option to buy a fully fledged PC for 'bobbing fun' style games is still there. And will be made a cheaper option with the PS5 et al.

That doesn't make that the casual gamer market is going away or not going to improve as the iPhone and iPad reach ever faster levels of hard ware.

Many ideas can seem quaint in the beginning. But the iOS juggernaut rolls on. The next to be squashed under neath it...

...is the 'Mac' as we know it.

Azrael.

First: I am not a casual gamer by any means. I'm a sim racer at heart. For casual games, I prefer the old 80's games, old 80's graphic and old 80's way to play them. I wouldn't play any iOS modern games based on them because the experience is not the same. That said, I prefer to run DOSBox based games than iOS native Games.

And, PS5? I never bought a PlayStation and never will. My Atari 2600 is still rocking solid. Who on earth pays a huge amount of money for a game for PlayStation? Jesus. I've never paid for my games, except racing games.
 
Yeah, about that.....

Did you like having to purchase a new copy of Adobe CS because your installers wouldn't run on Intel?

I'm a musician and producer. Audio apps were another area where lots of money had to be spent going forward.
Some apps never got reproduced on the x86 Mac side. I just would rather not do that again if I don't have to.
 
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Not to mention some of us actually do use bootcamp to run applications on the same hardware that we do the MacOS.
Windows ARM is not really a thing in my enterprise to boot.

Apple isn’t ditching Intel. They’re going to offer thin and light laptops which trade Intel compatibility for enormous performance and battery life improvements. It’s just going to be another product in their lineup.

The advantage of Apple processors is specifically in the performance per watt metric. The more thermally constrained the product, the bigger the advantage going to an Apple processor.
 
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I won't lie, those chips certainly sound like they could be impressive... (particularly) in a Macbook or Macbook Air...

But, as I've said before, I honestly just can't see the long term merit of moving the entire Mac line up away from x86-64 to ARM unless (and really even if) Apple's got an absolutely massive lead in both single core and multicore performance vs desktop x86 parts as well as the expected power consumption advantages that would enable them to stuff a 12 core CPU in a ~5W laptop.

Had Intel gotten fat and lazy by 2017 when they'd had absolute dominance in the high end CPU market for almost a decade? Yep. Did Apple and the rest of the industry suffer because of it? Absolutely. Thankfully Intel's no longer the only game in town for high performance x86 CPUs since AMD's 2017 Ryzen comeback, and now, with Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000 desktop, 4000 laptop parts) AMD has managed to take a lead in desktop, laptop and server parts. If they can execute Zen 3 and 4 as well as they've executed Zen 2 (and if there's any truth to the whispers about Zen 3 it looks like they will), we could be looking at an x86 industry that will be almost unrecognizable by the end of 2021.

I'm not surprised that Apple can design a low power laptop CPU that's better than Intel's 9th and 10th gen offerings. Heck, they may even have AMD's Ryzen 4000 laptop parts beat in the 5~15W range. The important question however, is can they design a chip that competes in the desktop space and can they continue to do so for as long as desktop computing is a thing?

Remember, Mac volumes (AKA Apple's marketshare) could double or even triple and they'd still be shipping far less high performance CPUs than either AMD or Intel. And no matter how many Macs they sell, unless they're looking to branch out into the server business (doubtful) or replay the 90s in a new war with Microsoft, the Mac business will likely always be small potatoes compared to their other businesses. What this means is that Apple's chip design philosophies and priorities will ALWAYS be rooted in what mobile (AKA the iPhone) needs and not what the Mac needs.

With those kind of constraints, it's not a question of whether they can beat Intel and AMD today or even in 2021, but in 2023, 2025, and beyond. Remember, these companies, unlike Apple, live or die on the quality of their chips. You can bet your ass that sooner or later Intel's coming back with a vengeance and AMD, determined not to repeat its past failures, is going to try and hang onto that performance crown tenaciously. Can Apple really maintain a long term competitive advantage over these companies, particularly when they sell to enterprise customers who pay top dollar for high end servers and storage? I'm not sure and I think it's an awfully risky gamble, particularly when we don't know when the next paradigm shift in computing will be.

All of this is before we even consider the compatibility headaches a transition from x86 to ARM would bring. While it certainly wouldn't be as bad as the PowerPC days, owing to ARM having more market and mindshare than PowerPC ever did, it would still unnecessarily complicate things, and make Macs far less attractive for work that involves development, virtualization or any number of other things.

My hope is that Apple has more sense than to attempt a full on transition and will instead just announce that macOS will support multiple ISA's (x86-64 AND ARM) and that they will choose the most appropriate option between what Intel, AMD, and they themselves can offer for any given product. Only time will tell.

To end on a more positive note, I can't tell you how excited I am to see this site reporting on substanial MAC rumors for once :)

Yeah. Was it a full on transition last time? They just gradually phased out PPC hardware.

Azrael.
 
Hey Apple, if you plan on doing this, why not give us an option like you did in the old days

Performa 640 anyone?
PowerPC 6100 DOS?

I'm right there with you buddy. I am very deep in the Apple ecosystem, with my ideal setup of a Mac Mini, iPad Pro, and iPhone. I do very much prefer to use MacOS when I am at my desk. However, I bootcamp my Mac Mini and have an eGPU for my PC gaming on windows, and it's great. Sure, I could build a dedicated PC, but I like the simplicity of my one desktop setup so much.

I actually have a spare PC with a discrete graphics card. I still play on my Mac mini (no egpu) because I wanna just stay in Mac OS. Like you said, the selling point for Mac was the integration between my iPhone, iPad, Mac mini, Apple TV, and HomePods.

So its either enjoy all of Apple's items or play games.
 
like the dongle situation, which completely cleared up after 1-2 years.. oh wait...

I’d rather we move forward with technology even though it’ll be a pain in the ass for a while, all devices will be using usb-c eventually. Damn it feels nice now to only plug 1 usb-c cable to connect my mbp to an external monitor.
 
I've posted this in a couple of other semi-related threads, but I'm hoping that this will also result in the iPads getting dual-OS capability. In tablet mode it would run iPad OS. When used with a keyboard it could run OSX.
 
That may be your bench mark. But the iOS community of gamers dwarfs the PC gamer eco-system and other 'tired' 'high quality' bobbing gun shooter games. (See Doom Eternal. Is that any better than Doom 3?)

I find most PC games quite tedious. I prefer the old school 'concept' games of iOS tickle my fancy more.

I personally think many iOS games are far more original in concept and style of graphics.

A 'little' app that is the initial trickle or test of concept for iPad to Mac conversion is just the beginning. Not an end point.

The option to buy a fully fledged PC for 'bobbing fun' style games is still there. And will be made a cheaper option with the PS5 et al.

That doesn't make that the casual gamer market is going away or not going to improve as the iPhone and iPad reach ever faster levels of hard ware.

Many ideas can seem quaint in the beginning. But the iOS juggernaut rolls on. The next to be squashed under neath it...

...is the 'Mac' as we know it.

Azrael.

I don't think it makes much sense to compare Doom 3 and Doom Eternal - they're different genres really. Doom 3 was a slower paced, scary horror game, and I love it; I haven't played the later Dooms, which are back to being fast paced shooters. In hindsight think it would have made sense to give Doom 3 a different name to indicate that it was kind of a spinoff, but then maybe at the time that though it would actually be the future of the series.

You got any recommendations for these concept games you play on iOS? My own experience of iOS games has not been good, I've found most to be generic, repetitive and boring after ten minutes. I think they aim at a very different audience, though I'm not sure what traits define those audiences.
 
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First: I am not a casual gamer by any means. I'm a sim racer at heart. For casual games, I prefer the old 80's games, old 80's graphic and old 80's way to play them. I wouldn't play any iOS modern games based on them because the experience is not the same. That said, I prefer to run DOSBox based games than iOS native Games.

And, PS5? I never bought a PlayStation and never will. My Atari 2600 is still rocking solid. Who on earth pays a huge amount of money for a game for PlayStation? Jesus. I've never paid for my games, except racing games.

I don't play any recent PC games. The newest one I play is from 2004.

My 'era' is C64. Pre-Mac. I liked Pit Stop II as far as race games went and Speed King was ok. (The 'PC' sim race games look realistic enough. Impressive from a certain standpoint. If you like race games.)

I bought a PS3 for my Mum. (Mum also has a GameCube, PSII, N64 etc.) She kicks Bat booty on Batman. Great console. Currently I think she's having a go at Far Cry 3. PS3. Affordable power. Great bone crunching combat system on that Bats game.

Well, yes. As someone who used to pay £2.50-£9.95 for C64 games....aint nobody getting £45-70 for a console or PC game outta me. Just buy them 2nd hand. I do.

I find the iOS game eco-sphere interesting from that point of view. Cost.

I did enjoy Marathon on the PPC Mac. Far better than Doom in my view. More thoughtful. Better story. Losing the PPC emulation meant I could no longer play it. :/

Azrael.
 
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If we all want super sleek laptop, super responsive and long battery life like the iPad, it’s no other way than moving to apple designed chips.
You know why it was much better? Because they aligned with the main stream with all the benefits that came with it once the transition was complete.

This time, it will be a pain in the ass for 1-2 years for the transition. And then it will continue to be a pain in the ass because nothing will be compatible.

it’s gonna be worth it, the super sleek thin laptop, long battery life like the iPad, the much higher performance of the built in integrated graphics, and the responsiveness of the house designed architecture. I’m sure Apple will keep selling and updating intel based Macbook pros when in the transition phase.
 
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I don't think it makes much sense to compare Doom 3 and Doom Eternal - they're different genres really. Doom 3 was a slower paced, scary horror game, and I love it; I haven't played the later Dooms, which are back to being fast paced shooters. In hindsight think it would have made sense to give Doom 3 a different name to indicate that it was kind of a spinoff, but then maybe at the time that though it would actually be the future of the series.

You got any recommendations for these concept games you play on iOS? My own experience of iOS games has not been good, I've found most to be generic, repetitive and boring after ten minutes. I think they aim at a very different audience, though I'm not sure what traits define those audiences.

Funny, take away the 'impressive' graphics and that's how I feel about PC games. Many of them use the same game engines. Listing iOS games isn't going to change your mind, is it?

Different audiences. But for Doom. Same audience. Same franchise. So it gets compared.

Doom Eternal? A doom skinned quake game? High in generic sci-fi horror. Very meh.

Doom 3 I'll give a point to for getting back to the roots.

Azrael.
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I've posted this in a couple of other semi-related threads, but I'm hoping that this will also result in the iPads getting dual-OS capability. In tablet mode it would run iPad OS. When used with a keyboard it could run OSX.

That's a good shout. I think Macdailynews have muted that idea a few times.

Azrael.
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I can answer for some: applications - some developers are still butthurt over the whole opengl to metal conversion and simply dropped the Mac altogether and stayed with Windows on x86. This is a way I can run both sides without having
to purchase an additional machine just to run windows x86 software that by necessity I must use. If I was a hobbyist
without professional needs I suppose I could get away with it but why not use an iPad since that's basically an apple
touch computer that doesn't use x86 processors?

We'll get our answer in the next year.

As someone who bought into the PPC with Adobe Suit before the move to Intel soon after...it always hurts getting 'left' behind or if some Apps don't make it.

I have a version of Lightwave 3D that is sensitive to the recent Mac OS moves from Moutain Lion onwards. I guess buying bootable versions of which Mac Os I can...and holding a version of Mac OS as an external boot for that app can work.

or I drop kick LW and go Blender 3D.

Azrael.
 
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Wouldn't be surprised if both a 12-inch MacBook and the rumoured "low cost" 23-inch iMac are both running on ARM.

I'm super late to this thread - but this is what I was thinking. What better way to show confidence in your decision than to release the next iMac redesign with the ARM chip.
 
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I would recommend staying away from a first gen ARM laptop for a few reasons. The 1st batch could have the most issues and Apple could probably charge more because a 12 core processor could be better than what Intel processors Apple uses in the Air or a Pro.
 
Yeah. Was it a full on transition last time? They just gradually phased out PPC hardware.

Azrael.

I see no reason to ditch Intel and go with a full transition. Apple can very, very easily afford to keep their options open here.

Initially they could just offer these Apple powered Macs in low powered products like MacBook Air, MacBook. Very few of those customers are running VMs, it’s an easy win. Apple processors will absolutely crush Intel in this form factor.

For more high-end computers like an 8-core i9 16” MacBook Pro, there may not be much of an advantage moving to an Apple processor. Just keep it Intel, it works great. Or offer a choice, if Apple can beat the 8 core i9 by enough.

At this point Apple has the foundations in place for compiling to multiple architectures just fine, they’ve done fat binaries before, 32/64bit, PPC/Intel, 68k/PPC. XCode is ready, and at this point, pretty much everybody is using XCode. It’s no big deal to compile applications that run on both.

Apple is absolutely slopping over with money, they don’t have to pick just one option.
 
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