Become a MacRumors Supporter for $25/year with no ads, private forums, and more!

Bloomberg: First Mac With Apple Silicon Will Be Announced in November

chucker23n1

macrumors 601
Dec 7, 2014
4,634
5,824
While I agree that Apple doesn't mind replacing their own products with a better one, they will be careful not to replace an expensive model with a cheaper one that is also better - even if they could. This is why I don't think we'll see a new Apple Silicon laptop at $1000-1500 that suddenly exceeds the top-end Intel MBP16.

They’ve done exactly that with the iPad Air. Its chip is better than the iPad Pro’s in most ways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: robinp
Comment

nt5672

macrumors 68020
Jun 30, 2007
2,130
4,568
Huh?? My first Mac (that I purchased) was a PowerBook 140 nearly 30 years ago. Loved everything about it. I've subsequently bought most V1.0 devices including watch, iPod, iMac, and iPad. Never experienced a dean flaw or production issue that made me regret not waiting for the next-gen or a "refresh". I lived through the Power PC transition and it was no big deal. I am intrigued because a major benefit to the ARM switch may be fewer watts meaning longer battery life which would be great.

I'm with you partially, I own an original Mac that I bought. So I would not have made that statement 30 years ago because it was not true. Sure Apple products work today if you don't use any functionally outside of that which teenagers use. For me, I'm slowly moving on. Apple does not make computers anymore.

I remember a few years ago taking my PowerBook 180 on site to fix some SAP problems and getting incessantly teased about having a toy computer. Back then, it was not true, but I guess they did know what they were talking about because it is true today. If you want a real computer to do more than play, light work processing, and spreadsheets, you need to look elsewhere.
 
Comment

Fomalhaut

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2020
290
244
I'm with you partially, I own an original Mac that I bought. So I would not have made that statement 30 years ago because it was not true. Sure Apple products work today if you don't use any functionally outside of that which teenagers use. For me, I'm slowly moving on. Apple does not make computers anymore.

I remember a few years ago taking my PowerBook 180 on site to fix some SAP problems and getting incessantly teased about having a toy computer. Back then, it was not true, but I guess they did know what they were talking about because it is true today. If you want a real computer to do more than play, light work processing, and spreadsheets, you need to look elsewhere.

I'll guess we'll have to see what we can do with our new "toy computers" next year :)

If they can still run the same software that they do today, with either the same or better performance, then I doubt we'll see any difference. I'm particularly interested in the availability of development tools - IDEs, programming language support, databases, web / app servers, containers, VMs, and the ability for cross-plaform development.
 
Comment

Fomalhaut

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2020
290
244
I fail to see why it should be a stretch. The A12Z is built on two years-old technology for a device with no active cooling and 1/6 the volume of a 16".

It's not just the thermals. The Radeon Pro 5600M has 40 GPU cores (I think), and the A12Z has 8. A new SoC would need to be a lot bigger (the GPU takes a large fraction of the die), so it would end up being a very large chip. Maybe they will use multiple "chiplets" on the package. I agree that it's technically possible - the new Playstation and XBox are doing something similar - but at 180-200W TDP. Apple has not yet demonstrated their ability to deliver this performance within typical laptop TDP limits. I hope they can pull it off, but I'm tempering my expectations :)
 
Last edited:
Comment

cmaier

macrumors Core
Jul 25, 2007
19,715
20,636
California
It's not just the thermals. The Radeon Pro 5600M has 40 GPU cores (I think), and the A12Z has 8. A new SoC would need to be a lot bigger (the GPU takes a large fraction of the die), so it would end up being a very large chip. Maybe they will use multiple "chiplets" on the package. I agree that it's technically possible - the new Playstation and XBox are doing something similar - but at 180-200W TDP. Apple has not yet demonstrated their ability to deliver this performance within typical laptop TDP limits. I hope they can pull it off, but I'm tempering my expectations :)
Many ways to pull it off without chiplets. MCMs, etc. Heck, I’d doesn’t even have to be in the same chip package. Could be a separate die sharing an external version of the on-chip SoC bus. Add to that that nvidia and amd typically don’t use the same chip design methodology for GPUs that apple and AMD use for CPUs (or at least that’s the way it used to be at AMD) - if Apple uses the same techniques for GPUs that it uses for CPUs, they could reduce die size vs. the big boys by around 20% for the similar performance.
 
Comment

Fomalhaut

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2020
290
244
Many ways to pull it off without chiplets. MCMs, etc. Heck, I’d doesn’t even have to be in the same chip package. Could be a separate die sharing an external version of the on-chip SoC bus. Add to that that nvidia and amd typically don’t use the same chip design methodology for GPUs that apple and AMD use for CPUs (or at least that’s the way it used to be at AMD) - if Apple uses the same techniques for GPUs that it uses for CPUs, they could reduce die size vs. the big boys by around 20% for the similar performance.

Thanks! I'd be really interested in hearing your opinion about how difficult it will be to match current MBP/iMac dGPUs with Apple Silicon.

Would they build the GPU on the same SoC or use a dGPU with a proprietary interconnect that allows uniform memory access, as you suggest?

Could an Apple GPU (in package or discrete) be more power efficient than the current 50W+ dGPUs that are currently used? I'm curious about how Apple would solve the power efficiency challenge compared to AMD's SoCs in the XBox X and PS5 which are estimated to have double the combined CPU+GPU TDP of a MBP16 (i.e. 180-200W compared to 45W CPU + 50W dGPU).
 
Comment

cmaier

macrumors Core
Jul 25, 2007
19,715
20,636
California
Thanks! I'd be really interested in hearing your opinion about how difficult it will be to match current MBP/iMac dGPUs with Apple Silicon.

Would they build the GPU on the same SoC or use a dGPU with a proprietary interconnect that allows uniform memory access, as you suggest?

Could an Apple GPU (in package or discrete) be more power efficient than the current 50W+ dGPUs that are currently used? I'm curious about how Apple would solve the power efficiency challenge compared to AMD's SoCs in the XBox X and PS5 which are estimated to have double the combined CPU+GPU TDP of a MBP16 (i.e. 180-200W compared to 45W CPU + 50W dGPU).

I have no idea! This, to me, is the big question. I know their CPU will kick Intel’s butt. I have no idea what their plans are for GPU, how long they’ve been working on it, why they took an Imagination license, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: firewood
Comment

Virinprew

macrumors 6502a
Apr 24, 2012
652
293
I’m sure Apple doesn’t expect the first gen to sell that much. But it will generate the buzz and a lot of media coverage. So people have it in mind the next time they need a laptop. I personally will wait for 2022 at the earliest. My late-2013 MBP 15” is still usable.
 
Comment

Fomalhaut

macrumors 6502
Oct 6, 2020
290
244
I have no idea! This, to me, is the big question. I know their CPU will kick Intel’s butt. I have no idea what their plans are for GPU, how long they’ve been working on it, why they took an Imagination license, etc.

Thanks for answering in any case. I agree that CPU performance should be good or even "impressive", but GPU is the incognito. Apple will have to match current and future AMD offerings, but I don't how know how long it will take them to get there.
 
Comment

cmaier

macrumors Core
Jul 25, 2007
19,715
20,636
California
Thanks for answering in any case. I agree that CPU performance should be good or even "impressive", but GPU is the incognito. Apple will have to match current and future AMD offerings, but I don't how know how long it will take them to get there.

Well at least there are indications that “per GPU core” they will be reasonably competitive to the mid-range. Who knows what they have been working on, though,.
 
Comment

Skullbussa

macrumors member
Jul 1, 2011
67
15
Cautiously optimistic but the stink of PowerPC still hovers over Mac.

I don't give a good-go**amn about synthetic benchmarks, Geekbench, how well an ARM chip can run iOS software.

I want to know how fast a premium laptop meant for working professionals can manage dozens of high-resource apps, I want to be able to present powerpoint over a Zoom meeting while I have a many Word, PDF, and Quicktime videos queued up, I want noticeable speed improvements in Camtasia and Premiere, I want to be able to open gigantic spreadsheets. I want blistering-fast Chrome and file copy operations.

If I am perfectly honest, this move to Apple Silicon seems to be driven entirely by Apple's desire to make Macbooks as profitable for the company as their phones are. They're entitled to profits and as someone who is plunking $2500+ for an enterprise-class notebook computer, I am entitled to A-tier performance. If I don't get it with Apple Silicon I will not hesitate, not even one second, to look at Dell, Lenovo, etc.
 
Comment

Unregistered 4U

macrumors 68000
Jul 22, 2002
1,913
1,194
noticeable speed improvements in Camtasia and Premiere
I would guess that, for a similarly priced Windows laptop, your performance for these cross-platform apps would be quite significant over a top end MBP. From most of what you’ve mentioned, there’s nothing particularly “Mac Only” about your setup other than Keynote... wait, no, you said PowerPoint.

My thinking is that the first generation Apple Silicon will be fantastic with apps that have been written specifically for the OR has at least been recompiled with the latest Xcode (Adobe and Microsoft MAY be there, but we’ll see in November). Cross-platform stuff will likely (being pessimistic here, because Apple can’t POSSIBLY have this be everything for everyone on the first shot can they?) perform as well or maybe worse.
 
Comment

dgdosen

macrumors 68000
Dec 13, 2003
1,791
487
Seattle
Thanks for answering in any case. I agree that CPU performance should be good or even "impressive", but GPU is the incognito. Apple will have to match current and future AMD offerings, but I don't how know how long it will take them to get there.

There was a quote from the WWDC Platforms State of the Union that made me perk up - the silicon engineers were saying something like (I went back and re-listened to get an accurate quote)

"One of the things I'm most excited about is that we're bringing our high performance GPU architecture to the Mac. We've already seen our GPU architecture work really well in the iPhone and iPad Pro, and in the Mac, this architecture is going to be great"

Sounds like overpromising to me :).

Personally, I'd say iPad Pro graphics would meet my needs. I'm more looking forward to the other pieces of silicon in their laptops.
 
Comment

cmaier

macrumors Core
Jul 25, 2007
19,715
20,636
California
Cautiously optimistic but the stink of PowerPC still hovers over Mac.

I don't give a good-go**amn about synthetic benchmarks, Geekbench, how well an ARM chip can run iOS software.

I want to know how fast a premium laptop meant for working professionals can manage dozens of high-resource apps, I want to be able to present powerpoint over a Zoom meeting while I have a many Word, PDF, and Quicktime videos queued up, I want noticeable speed improvements in Camtasia and Premiere, I want to be able to open gigantic spreadsheets. I want blistering-fast Chrome and file copy operations.

If I am perfectly honest, this move to Apple Silicon seems to be driven entirely by Apple's desire to make Macbooks as profitable for the company as their phones are. They're entitled to profits and as someone who is plunking $2500+ for an enterprise-class notebook computer, I am entitled to A-tier performance. If I don't get it with Apple Silicon I will not hesitate, not even one second, to look at Dell, Lenovo, etc.
Paying hundreds of engineers to do the very difficult job of designing the world’s best microprocessors is not something you do to maximize profits.

They are doing it to control their destiny and to provide the best possible technology so they can make the products they want to mare.
 
Comment

chucker23n1

macrumors 601
Dec 7, 2014
4,634
5,824
I want to know how fast a premium laptop meant for working professionals can manage dozens of high-resource apps, I want to be able to present powerpoint over a Zoom meeting while I have a many Word, PDF, and Quicktime videos queued up, I want noticeable speed improvements in Camtasia and Premiere, I want to be able to open gigantic spreadsheets. I want blistering-fast Chrome and file copy operations.

Well, you’re not gonna see any of that until the first few Macs ship.

Paying hundreds of engineers to do the very difficult job of designing the world’s best microprocessors is not something you do to maximize profits.

They are doing it to control their destiny and to provide the best possible technology so they can make the products they want to mare.

Yeah. This is a long-term investment, not a desperate bean-count.
 
Comment

ErikGrim

macrumors 603
Jun 20, 2003
5,059
3,598
Brisbane, Australia
It's absolutely interesting to see what they will release out the gate. Is it going to be similar performance to current iPad Airs in a laptop or are they going to make an oomph by releasing a system that will leapfrog all current gen intels? And what will that do to the current lineup?

I'm leaning towards the former, but it'd be very cool to see them make a statement with the new silicon.
 
Comment

aknabi

macrumors regular
Jul 4, 2011
179
228
Obviously the first will be a low end macbook
[automerge]1602262847[/automerge]

Probably shipping in December
I hope it's the 12" MacBook form factor (maybe without those bezels and a 12.9 screen)...
And also hopefully not a "slow-end" MacBook like the original MB 12.
 
Comment

chucker23n1

macrumors 601
Dec 7, 2014
4,634
5,824
It's absolutely interesting to see what they will release out the gate. Is it going to be similar performance to current iPad Airs in a laptop or are they going to make an oomph by releasing a system that will leapfrog all current gen intels? And what will that do to the current lineup?

I'm leaning towards the former, but it'd be very cool to see them make a statement with the new silicon.

They might focus on battery life instead. Introduce the all new 12-inch and 13-inch MacBook Air with 20-hour battery life (while quietly keeping an Intel option around for those who still want it); have its performance roughly on part with Tiger Lake.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ErikGrim
Comment
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.