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RooooG

macrumors newbie
Oct 30, 2012
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I just read the paper, fortunately most of it is a boilerplate description of BLE. It's not actually perfect non-continuous tracking at all, ie you can't tape a phone under the table in Starbucks and know when people come back hours or days later, you need to keep in range of a device and scan it on at least an occasional basis to catch the times between one or other of the random identifiers changing (like the MAC address) and another one (like the tokens in the nearby and handoff packets). If you catch the device in the window where one of these has changed and the other hasn't, you can assume it's the same device and repeat the process, if you miss that window (someone walks out of the Starbucks for an hour and comes back), both have changed and you have no way to match the device against one you've seen before.

Android is stated as not-vulnerable because the base OS doesn't constantly send out advertising packets with tokens in them which can be used in this 'tick-tock' tracking.

As far as I can tell however this paper just uses the base OS settings. Any device could have an app on it which advertises anything, peripheral apps are common and I would have to suspect that many such apps broadcast advertising data which never changes at all. That would be a vector for a long-term attack.

All-in-all an interesting piece of research, not something which is going to keep me up nights.
]

As someone who didn't need to read 90% of the paper because it's already well-known to me, yes, thank you, agreed. This is a non-issue if the device in question goes away for 15 minutes. Which is the problem RPAs solve in the first place.
 

SteveW928

macrumors 68000
May 28, 2010
1,834
1,380
Victoria, B.C. Canada
And worse, on the iPhone X you can't even see whether your VPN I still active, because there's not enough space anymore due to the frigging notch!

For real? Of all the info that could be displayed up there (maybe besides the time), that's pretty important.

To be completely honest, I like that new behaviour.

To each their own, I suppose. But, then there should be the option to set the controls to work one way or the other. Or, maybe have it turn green, yellow, red or something on each press.

... Second, of course there is a reason for it. What, you think they just did it for fun? What the button does is disconnect from any currently connected Bluetooth devices (except Apple Watch and similar), which is very useful (especially for people with apple watches). The WiFi button does the same, disconnects from the current network without disabling WiFi. Those buttons fit my, and I bet many others, use cases perfectly. ...

Clippy (the dancing paperclip) come to mind.
Why do you need a button at all, then?
 

Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
if the software is of such demonstrably low quality, it should be easy for you to prove it. let's hear your proof.

BTW: Nothing like Windows not loading on its own surface laptops, or Excel crashing while running on Windows, or...., or myriad android bugs allowing replacement of software. Fact: Bugs do exist
If I could count how many times Excel crashed on my windows laptops, desktops and workstation, I’d be well into the thousands.
 

fairuz

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2017
2,486
2,589
Silicon Valley
  1. Super
  2. easy
  3. to
  4. prove:
  5. How
  6. many
  7. more
  8. do
  9. you
  10. want?
That's just from a few months; not the most major clusters from, say, the last year or two.

The world outside of your echo chamber noticed a long time ago:
Googling and finding randos complaining about stuff like always doesn't prove anything.
I chose an apartment with bad reviews on purpose cause all the reviews were from idiots who didn't pay rent and got evicted.
[doublepost=1563748320][/doublepost]
Let's see, how many serious flaws have been found in Android?
Android has had lots of serious Bluetooth vulnerabilities. I mean, Bluetooth itself sucks too, and it's bound to have vulnerabilities. I just leave it off.
 

SteveW928

macrumors 68000
May 28, 2010
1,834
1,380
Victoria, B.C. Canada
I mean, Bluetooth itself sucks too, and it's bound to have vulnerabilities. I just leave it off.

No doubt. I have it off all the time except when I'm specifically needing to use an accessory (which would be a BT headset when I'm biking, or a keyboard with my iPad when I'm out and about typing a lot, or a gaming controller). But, I think the amount of time I have BT turned on is like 20% or less.

I'm surprised at the number of things that require it to be on, though... like those door locks. Which is why I think they are useless, as by the time I got my phone out and turned BT on, and got in, a key is just way faster and easier. :)
 

Dirtfarmer

macrumors regular
Jan 18, 2012
210
274
Googling and finding randos complaining about stuff like always doesn't prove anything.
I chose an apartment with bad reviews on purpose cause all the reviews were from idiots who didn't pay rent and got evicted.
[doublepost=1563748320][/doublepost]
Android has had lots of serious Bluetooth vulnerabilities. I mean, Bluetooth itself sucks too, and it's bound to have vulnerabilities. I just leave it off.
A large number of tier-1 technology publications have written extensively about Apple's significant decline in software quality over the last several years. This is a matter of record.

As a person who deploys Apple in enterprise, this is confirmed in anecdote. They are saving money on development and testing (and security) to keep the stock price high. What could possibly go wrong.

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT
 

fairuz

macrumors 68020
Aug 27, 2017
2,486
2,589
Silicon Valley
A large number of tier-1 technology publications have written extensively about Apple's significant decline in software quality over the last several years. This is a matter of record.

As a person who deploys Apple in enterprise, this is confirmed in anecdote. They are saving money on development and testing (and security) to keep the stock price high. What could possibly go wrong.

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT
Well, I'd actually trust the anecdote more than the tech publications. Only, tbh, your username makes me suspicious.
 
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Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
Demonstrably low-quality software and decreasing-quality hardware.

Meaning increased margins and increased stock price!

Karaoke web series, watch bands, Doctor Dre headsets.

The sky's the limit!

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT

Bout time for you to switch to Android.
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
so much for the "Find My" app in iOS 13.
And it's comforting to know that simply turning off Bluetooth via Control Center is only temporary ... it turns itself back on (unless you really kill it via Settings).

So how many people are now gong to have to remember to axe Bluetooth permanently while out in public? Millions? Billions?

"What happens on your phone, stays on your phone*"

* until you turn Bluetooth on

This allows tracking. Everything still stays on your phone. Two separate issues
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
Not difficult, but annoying that it doesn't work in control center that way anymore. When I turn Wifi off I want to turn it off not "disconnect but still on".

It’s literally not harder. You’re just complaining to complain because they changed something it seems.
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
  1. Super
  2. easy
  3. to
  4. prove:
  5. How
  6. many
  7. more
  8. do
  9. you
  10. want?

That's just from a few months; not the most major clusters from, say, the last year or two.

The world outside of your echo chamber noticed a long time ago:

quality.png

The dirtFarmer is also a cherry picker it seems
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
Except that doesn't turn it off Apple changed that in iOS 11(?) - now it's in a disconnected-but-still-on mode. very annoying. Same problem when I travel. I use a VPN, but turn it, and wifi, off when I go to bed. If I turn Wifi "off" via control centre then it turns back on at 5am (without the VPN).

Great management on that one, Tim Cook and co...

Then don’t turn off WiFi and the VPN. What’s the point of doing that anyway? Battery? Charge it.
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
All the more reason you should be able to quickly disable Bluetooth (and wifi) from CC.

Having to do it manually like the old days it tedious. As if they can't implement a better setup than this...

Tedious? Really? So you’re walking down the street, oh no, I’m being tracked, and know to turn Bluetooth off? When exactly is it the right time to be secure in your use of Bluetooth. When you pull into your neighborhood?

This research is good but it’s so far beyond a concern for 99.999999999% of the population.
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
Nah I'm good.

I just miss the old days.

Maybe most people now don't remember what it used to be.

As a die hard in the late 90's through early 2010's, you knew you were watching history being made in real time.

Now you get to watch...talking emojis, watch straps, and thousand dollar monitor arms. What??

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT

You mean when they opened up OS X to be more Windows like? When they made it easier to download apps that could jack up your computer etc? Apple simply got lucky no one was buying their stuff because that list of vulnerabilities woulda been 10 times that size on those days. Quite simply, no one cared but now they do as Apple tops the game.

Anyway, Catalina is taking Mac OS back to the days when Apple computer actually cared about security.
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
Apple did *not* change with the times. That's my point.

They started copying others and playing catch-up and being a cheesy also-ran.

The big idea would have been to hire another visionary, take risks, and do something that was revolutionary in 2015 the way Steve was doing revolutionary things in 2005.

They just lacked the intestinal fortitude, choosing instead to sell copycat headphones and copycat Bluetooth speakers. And make copycat YouTube shows. And drop the quality of their computers and their software.

(All of which produce great margins and send investors to the moon, so the only negative reinforcement would be from internet fanboys and forum dweebs like me.)

And they are in the process of paying the price for that.

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT

Paying the price? Lol
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
Correct. Apple has a small number of customers. Maybe 250 million in the world, and less than 1% of enterprise computers sold. So scraps from the big boys' table.

Copycat is something that already exists and is similar in form and function. You might put a spin on it here or there, but it is not "iPod vs Discman" or "OSX vs Windows XP" different.

The abbreviated list includes

Headphones
Smart speakers
Smartphones
Music store
Media store
Tv shows
Podcasts
App store
Desktop hardware
Desktop OS

Essentially their entire business now.

Some of those they were first to market with, but in 2019 you will not find anything there that is dramatically different from what other companies are selling.

Some of the items on that list are dramatically inferior.

Yes, they made Steve's watch. And Steve's tablet. And nobody else equals those two products.

But the counterpoint is that many of the items on that list are significantly worse than the competitors.

That is not the market strategy of the Apple of my youth.

Steve wouldn't touch a segment with a ten foot pole if he thought he was just going to be similar to other offerings.

He went to places where he could blow everyone away. And stayed out of every other market.

Tim seems to be trying to do exactly the opposite?

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT

You mean Steve Jobs the visionary who copied virtually everything he brought to market besides, maybe, a touch screen phone? Hell the iPod wasn’t even his. You’re deluded. Your list is full of Apple stuff that’s been there since the Faux deity Jobs held the reins.
 

Skoal

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2009
1,770
531
For what it's worth, I don't think it about bugs as much as what has happened to packages Apple has taken over and what they've done to them, along with UI degradation. It seems there have been some really sloppy releases too, though it's hard to say how they compare to the past (as you say, there have always been bugs, problems).

How many customers they have, though, is a bit irrelevant. Once you're in the Apple eco-system, the switching cost is high (so that we keep buying doesn't mean we agree with Apple's decisions), and Apple has earned a very high brand reputation. The real question is how that looks 10, 20 years from now, not right at the moment.

The good news, is a LOT of things I was worried about in the last decade seem to be turning around a bit now. So, we'll see.



True, I'm just saying it could be a possibility. Also, with that short range, comes precision. (ie: a path through a store vs at the store)



Ahh, but it is about WHO whined and how many. Apple has long been a target of whining tech-pundits and 'industry experts', as well as the Wall Street types. But, when die-hard Apple evangelists start worrying, or there is a large outcry from the core Apple user base, that's quite a different thing.

Find me someone like me who complained when the iPod or iPhone were released. It would be hard. We loved those.

Where you around for the Lisa release?
 

SteveW928

macrumors 68000
May 28, 2010
1,834
1,380
Victoria, B.C. Canada
It’s literally not harder. You’re just complaining to complain because they changed something it seems.

It literally is harder... depends on how one defines that. It takes more steps/time, which sucks if you got used to using CC. If you mean harder, as in might not have the mental/physical capability to do it, then no.

Then don’t turn off WiFi and the VPN. What’s the point of doing that anyway? Battery? Charge it.

What if they want to turn it off? If you're familiar with how VPNs work, you'd understand the concern being expressed. Some people don't want the WiFi on, just disconnected from a particular connection. They actually want it, off.

You mean Steve Jobs the visionary who copied virtually everything he brought to market besides, maybe, a touch screen phone?

So, a BWM isn't a good car because they copied the 4-wheel idea?
Also, there were touch phones prior to the iPhone. They were just junk.

Where you around for the Lisa release?

Around, as in alive? Yeah. I wasn't following Apple too closely at that point, but I was aware of it. I didn't start following Apple closely until the late-80s. But, I'm not sure what that has to do with the point I was making.
 
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Altis

macrumors 68040
Sep 10, 2013
3,165
4,896
Tedious? Really? So you’re walking down the street, oh no, I’m being tracked, and know to turn Bluetooth off? When exactly is it the right time to be secure in your use of Bluetooth. When you pull into your neighborhood?

This research is good but it’s so far beyond a concern for 99.999999999% of the population.

What are you on about?

It should be simple and quick to enable and disable Bluetooth and WiFi entirely on the go as needed. Somehow this was obvious with the introduction of CC, but not anymore.
 
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Dirtfarmer

macrumors regular
Jan 18, 2012
210
274
You mean Steve Jobs the visionary who copied virtually everything he brought to market besides, maybe, a touch screen phone? Hell the iPod wasn’t even his. You’re deluded. Your list is full of Apple stuff that’s been there since the Faux deity Jobs held the reins.
Paying the price? Lol
Apple is paying the price for wasting a decade coasting on old ideas, and they know it.

I have a friend who works in management at an apple store. For the first time ever, the iPhone isn't selling. They are having to find new ways to push people to buy it. This has never happened before.

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
I somewhat disagree. They've done lots of stuff. The problem is that about half of it involved bad decisions (that they are now, hopefully, somewhat course correcting from).

That's how I see it. I can't say Apple's done nothing.

But at the same time, many of the decisions Apple has made in the last half dozen years or so have been based on (at least apparently) on financially motivated cost cutting and min/maxing and not purely product decisions to make those products better.

Hence why with prices where they are, the trend of volume of their product sales is now starting to feel the lag of the diminishing good will. People will "swallow" certain issues if the price and everything else they want is matched. Start delivering less of that, but asking for more money, while also turning around and showboating how you're the most profitable company in the world, rubs people really the wrong way.
 

SteveW928

macrumors 68000
May 28, 2010
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That's how I see it. I can't say Apple's done nothing.

But at the same time, many of the decisions Apple has made in the last half dozen years or so have been based on (at least apparently) on financially motivated cost cutting and min/maxing and not purely product decisions to make those products better.

Hence why with prices where they are, the trend of volume of their product sales is now starting to feel the lag of the diminishing good will. People will "swallow" certain issues if the price and everything else they want is matched. Start delivering less of that, but asking for more money, while also turning around and showboating how you're the most profitable company in the world, rubs people really the wrong way.

Very well said, and I agree.

I'm a bit hopeful lately though, as the Mac Pro seems pretty good, along with a couple products I bought recently (and not reluctantly) like the Mac mini and 6th gen iPad. Both bring a lot of value for the price and are good designs. (There is still a huge hole - though the mini helped - in the Mac desktop line.)

I'm not sure how many people have a base understanding of business and economics, so as to see the negative impacts of that min/maxing profits stuff that pretty much get forced on most public companies (and willingly undertaken by most non-public ones). Steve was somehow able to ignore those forces, which contributed to their great products (as the this is the reason so many products get ruined).

Most people seem of the attitude that 'it is just the way it is' and how business works. Well, it isn't, or at least doesn't have to be (& shouldn't be) that way. Even so far as to often hear that fallacy of public companies having to legally maximize profits to their shareholders.

I'm afraid Apple will become like other public companies (which isn't a good thing). But, as I mentioned, a few more recent moves give me hope some of the old Apple is still around, just not quite as well directed (in terms of vision... better directed in terms of operations) as Steve's Apple.
 

LordVic

Cancelled
Sep 7, 2011
5,938
12,458
Very well said, and I agree.

I'm a bit hopeful lately though, as the Mac Pro seems pretty good, along with a couple products I bought recently (and not reluctantly) like the Mac mini and 6th gen iPad. Both bring a lot of value for the price and are good designs. (There is still a huge hole - though the mini helped - in the Mac desktop line.)

I'm not sure how many people have a base understanding of business and economics, so as to see the negative impacts of that min/maxing profits stuff that pretty much get forced on most public companies (and willingly undertaken by most non-public ones). Steve was somehow able to ignore those forces, which contributed to their great products (as the this is the reason so many products get ruined).

Most people seem of the attitude that 'it is just the way it is' and how business works. Well, it isn't, or at least doesn't have to be (& shouldn't be) that way. Even so far as to often hear that fallacy of public companies having to legally maximize profits to their shareholders.

I'm afraid Apple will become like other public companies (which isn't a good thing). But, as I mentioned, a few more recent moves give me hope some of the old Apple is still around, just not quite as well directed (in terms of vision... better directed in terms of operations) as Steve's Apple.
Steve had a different factor that helped. He was a cult of personality. A lot of good will he earned was due to that personality and his charisma.

There was also a much different sense from him. He was genuinely proud of the products. When he charged a premium for that product, it wasn't because it was some min/maxing of profit (though, i'm sure there was accountants in his ears) but fair value for the product he believed offered a premium experience to everything else.

Often, he wasn't terribly wrong either. During his tenures, stuff released tended to be slightly more expensive than his competition. But at the same vein had some differentiating factor that would wow us to accepting that premium price tag.

When the Air was at the top of the game, there really was no competition for the Air till the Ultrabook platform came out. The idea of stomaching a slightly more expensive price for the Mac vs other laptops was reasonable, since you weren't getting an ultrabook at the time from anyone else. Same with the unibody macbook pros. Even the iMac when launched.

Today, Apples lineup isn't bad from a technical standpoint. But that ridiculously high premium is still there, without offering any real significant or compelling differentiation to warrant that price. The overall markets in the industry Apple is competing in is very mature and almost everyone is offering parity accross the board. The difference is, you get more for the same price with competition. Meaning that the premium you're paying now for Apple's products is for the logo and not the tech inside. The very defition of what we used to call "The Apple Tax" back during the old days (pre jobs return). Apple's current pricing scheme is "we charge this cause we're Apple".

Jobs got away with it because of his attention to product details and quality. His anger when things went wrong was often more because he felt personally slighted when people didn't like something (The you're holding it wrong moment). Where Tim doesn't seem to care about the products themselves, more about the money. Tim's "you're holding it wrong" is not because he feels the product is being insults, but because it means less sales. And without the cult of personality and charisma that Jobs had, it comes off as sleezy profiteering and not just a ceo being ceo

edit:

just to add, you're right with the "ceo's job is to maximize profits" mentality of today. People who repeat this don't have a clue what CEO's job is. While maximizing profits is an aspect of it, it's the CEO's job to navigate emergenging and changing markets and environments and to navigate through the quagmire of everyday life in order to ensure the long term sustainability of the company. The job of mazimizing profit is that of the CFO and accounting. They are to find the maximization of profits and provide those recommendations to the CEO who then is to take into consideration what the accounting portions say in order to make business decisions.

Anyone who claims that CEO's should only answer to maximization of profits and nothing else have no business running a company. There is so SO much more to running a company than just profit maximization. Health and safety. long term sustainability. employee retention. navigation of the legal environment the company works with. Dealing with governemnts and regulatory bodies (depending on industry) and ensuring that the companies best interests are considered and weighed.
 
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