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... Today, Apples lineup isn't bad from a technical standpoint. But that ridiculously high premium is still there, without offering any real significant or compelling differentiation to warrant that price. The overall markets in the industry Apple is competing in is very mature and almost everyone is offering parity accross the board. The difference is, you get more for the same price with competition. Meaning that the premium you're paying now for Apple's products is for the logo and not the tech inside. The very defition of what we used to call "The Apple Tax" back during the old days (pre jobs return). Apple's current pricing scheme is "we charge this cause we're Apple". ...

I agree pretty strongly with most of what you wrote, with a bit of exception to this. I too have been quite concerned with Apple fulfilling the 'Apple Tax' insults from the past, as well as the 'fashion' insults. But, I think in reality, there still is an edge to what Apple offers, it just isn't nearly as big as it once was.

It's never fun to have to come up with more money to buy something, unless you're quite wealthy, I suppose. But, in the past, I bought their stuff quite happy with my expenditure and what I got in the end. I've been much less so in the last couple decades... more begrudgingly spending.

That's something Apple probably can't yet see on the 'bottom line' because, I'm still spending. I assume many still are, and I've met so many who've moved to Apple due to Apple's reputation from the past. So, I wouldn't expect to, yet, see too much impact on that 'bottom line.'

But, without a turnaround in their behavior, we will see that 'bottom line' impact at some point, if not soon. I'm hoping we're seeing some of that behavior change. But, what I find funny is that everyone goes to the current numbers to refute the 'they are doomed' stuff. Not even the most pessimistic of us think that should show up today.

While I'm not in the 'they are doomed' crowd, I do think there will be a negative impact coming (from the last decade or two), and would be concerned long-term, if I hadn't seen some change. I'm hoping a few recent things are indications of that change, and that long-term, they will be OK. But, they have to get back a bit more to Jobs' way of thinking, and I'm not sure if that is possible under current management.

I suppose the likely outcome, is that it will be mixed. They won't completely screw up, but they also won't be what they once were. That is unfortunate, doable for now.
 
I agree pretty strongly with most of what you wrote, with a bit of exception to this. I too have been quite concerned with Apple fulfilling the 'Apple Tax' insults from the past, as well as the 'fashion' insults. But, I think in reality, there still is an edge to what Apple offers, it just isn't nearly as big as it once was.

It's never fun to have to come up with more money to buy something, unless you're quite wealthy, I suppose. But, in the past, I bought their stuff quite happy with my expenditure and what I got in the end. I've been much less so in the last couple decades... more begrudgingly spending.

That's something Apple probably can't yet see on the 'bottom line' because, I'm still spending, I assume many still are, and I've met so many who've moved to Apple due to Apple's reputation from the past. So, I wouldn't expect to, yet, see too much impact on that 'bottom line.'

But, without a turnaround in their behavior, we will see that 'bottom line' impact at some point, if not soon. I'm hoping we're seeing some of that behavior change. But, what I find funny is that everyone goes to the current numbers to refund the 'they are doomed' stuff. Not even the most pessimistic of us think that should show up today.

While I'm not in the 'they are doomed' crowd, I do think there will be a negative impact coming (from the last decade or two), and would be concerned long-term, if I hadn't seen some change. I'm hoping a few recent things are indications of that change, and that long-term, they will be OK. But, they have to get back a bit more to Jobs' way of thinking, and I'm not sure if that is possible under current management.

I suppose the likely outcome, is that it will be mixed. They won't completely screw up, but they also won't be what they once were. That is unfortunate, doable for now.

yes, you're spending, but I'm no longer...

Apple isn't going to wake up one day and 100% of their users left for one decision. it's a case of "a death by a thousand cuts".... Little changes here and there that drive away a few users at a time, untl you get to a point where all those users add up.

I don't think they're doomed. They have too good a warchest of tech, patents and good will. it would take a collasal ****up of inordinate magnitude for Apple to return to the days of near bankruptcy. The question is, is Tim Cook the person to correct this current trend or is he too much a "CFO" and not enough of a "CEO" to recognize when the min/maxing of profit has the cost of burning good will?

you already said instea dof being an automatic purchase, you have to think about it. That's evidence of that goodwill burned right there. You may still be a purchaser today, but that good will has already shaken your automatic purchase.
 
The question is, is Tim Cook the person to correct this current trend or is he too much a "CFO" and not enough of a "CEO" to recognize when the min/maxing of profit has the cost of burning good will?

Exactly. That is the how-many-billion-dollar question.

you already said instea dof being an automatic purchase, you have to think about it. That's evidence of that goodwill burned right there. You may still be a purchaser today, but that good will has already shaken your automatic purchase.

Absolutely. I'm still too entrenched in the eco-system, and the 'grass isn't green enough' to make the jump. But, I've certainly been looking at that option (more a few years ago than today, to be fair).

Also, the influx of new iPhone people has vastly outweighed the exodus of the Mac users. I think that's what Apple is counting on (and IMO, might explain why the neglected the Mac for so long). But, I'm hoping they now realize things are a bit bigger and more complex than that. They are absolutely burning some of the past good-will, as you say above. And, that good-will is an Apple thing, not just a Mac thing. It will eventually impact the iPhone buying, too.
 
Exactly. That is the how-many-billion-dollar question.



Absolutely. I'm still too entrenched in the eco-system, and the 'grass isn't green enough' to make the jump. But, I've certainly been looking at that option (more a few years ago than today, to be fair).

Also, the influx of new iPhone people has vastly outweighed the exodus of the Mac users. I think that's what Apple is counting on (and IMO, might explain why the neglected the Mac for so long). But, I'm hoping they now realize things are a bit bigger and more complex than that. They are absolutely burning some of the past good-will, as you say above. And, that good-will is an Apple thing, not just a Mac thing. It will eventually impact the iPhone buying, too.

Yes, but the reliance on the iPhone for so long comes with it's own caveats indicating poor leadership IMHO. Virtually all of Apples linup going into 2019 (I say 2019 shows some promise) has been hedged on iPhone/iOS adoption.

All of Apples services were hitched to iOS. All of their accessories hitched to iOS. if the iPhone took a hit on sales, it would trickle down over time to affect every other product category. If you compare Apple to other multi-billion dollar companies, They have all diversified into non-related fields in order to hedge bets against a single product line. Apple has only recently in 2019 really started this change in trend with opening up software / services to other platforms.

the HomePod, Apple Watch, etc are prime examples of these products that without the success of iPhone, would fail on their own. This is probably why that even when Apple hit 1T in market cap, it quickly eroded when Apple then said "we're not releasing stats on volume anymore". This came as a sign to investors that Apple's "cash cow" is no longer on a path to growth, and there at the time was very little else in the portfolio that was going to bring in such revenue.

2019 has been a better picture however. The question is, has it been enough and is it in enough time? With 30% less iPhones moved less quarter, that's a significant chunk of less potential new ancilliary purchases from Apple. We'll see if their venture into original programming is succesful or not (I don't see why it wont). I just think this is where Apple should have been heading 2-5 years ago. Even then they'd have been "late" but now everyone else is already on board. Instead of competing against just Netflix, now they're competing against CBS, Netflix, Disney (which also owns Marvel, Star Wars, Hulu), universal, Amazon, etc. With the slice of the pies to be far more broken than they would have been before.

I just Think Tim Cook makes a better COO than CEO. I'd love him on my team ensuring my product line can be built. But he's clearly shown he cannot handle a whole companies long term direction and product scope. Though, despite not being the charismatic leader Jobs was, Tim IMHO is at least a better person and probably a good dude.
 
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you already said instea dof being an automatic purchase, you have to think about it. That's evidence of that goodwill burned right there. You may still be a purchaser today, but that good will has already shaken your automatic purchase.
On the flip side, for us, getting a new iphone was never an automatic purchase, even with the old cell phone contracts. We decide, for our reasons, if we want a new iphone. How many of us are out there vs. the "automatic purchasers" is the question.
 
I somewhat disagree. They've done lots of stuff. The problem is that about half of it involved bad decisions (that they are now, hopefully, somewhat course correcting from).
Not saying they haven't made some abortive attempts at pretending they are still relevant.

But they chose not to take the big risks and make the big moves that would have allowed them to dramatically revolutionize entire industries. They way they used to under Steve.

No car, no "you can't remember how you lived before this" paradigm.

Quick, tell me how music worked before iPod and iTunes. I'll wait.

Tell me how people communicated before the modern smartphone was introduced by Steve jobs in 2007.

They don't change the world like that anymore. They make trinkets and baubles and bad software and keyboards that fail.

Which sucks.

#FIRETHEACCOUNTANT
 
....
Quick, tell me how music worked before iPod and iTunes. I'll wait.
Easy. Used to load music (mp3) from my computer to my mp3. Or used a Walkman.

... Tell me how people communicated before the modern smartphone was introduced by Steve jobs in 2007. ...
What? There were plenty of good cell phones.

... They don't change the world like that anymore. They make trinkets and baubles and bad software and keyboards that fail....
If that’s your takeaway, it’s pretty myopic, to say the least.
 
Easy. Used to load music (mp3) from my computer to my mp3. Or used a Walkman.


What? There were plenty of good cell phones.


If that’s your takeaway, it’s pretty myopic, to say the least.
my point being that those paradigms were wildly, utterly different before Steve got to them

Now they don't change the world like that anymore.

You can't name anything that has changed under the Accountant King the way that music, personal communication, or the personal computer changed under Steve.

That's why I think they should #FIRETHEACCOUNTANT.
 
my point being that those paradigms were wildly, utterly different before Steve got to them

Now they don't change the world like that anymore.

You can't name anything that has changed under the Accountant King the way that music, personal communication, or the personal computer changed under Steve.

That's why I think they should #FIRETHEACCOUNTANT.
iPhone 6, AirPods and Apple watch. Which is why Tim got an amazing compensation package last year.

But your mistaking change the world and well liked for popular. And I agree Apple products historically have been good, well lined and popular. The ekg in Apple watch though, might be change the world.
 
iPhone 6, AirPods and Apple watch. Which is why Tim got an amazing compensation package last year.

But your mistaking change the world and well liked for popular. And I agree Apple products historically have been good, well lined and popular. The ekg in Apple watch though, might be change the world.
umm, the iPhone was Steve?

"IPhone 6" is not a world-changing paradigm exploder. It's literally the 9th generation iterative evolution of something that already existed.

Same with the headphones.

The watch was Steve's project, not Tim's, and it didn't take off. Yes it outsold other smart watches but it didn't revolutionize the world.

IPod + iTunes wasn't just "well liked and popular" . It literally exploded a trillion dollar industry and changed the way that a core human art form is created and consumed forever.

Wireless headphones that look the same as wired headphones but with the cords cut off are not comparable. Heck, they didn't even explode the headphone industry.

(The Accountant got an amazing compensation package because he kept the stock price high and the margins high. But he did that by mortgaging the future of the company, failing to invest in finding the next big revolution for 11 consecutive years and counting. That's why I think that they should FIRETHEACCOUNTANT.)
 
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umm, the iPhone was Steve?
And so was the iPhone 2, 3 and 4. See a pattern?

"IPhone 6" is not a world-changing paradigm exploder. It's literally the 9th generation iterative evolution of something that already existed.
iPhone 6 literally changed the destiny of Apple.

Same with the headphones.
Sure headphones, not AirPods. AirPods have a revolutionary TV w1 chip in them.

The watch was Steve's project, not Tim's, and it didn't take off. Yes it outsold other smart watches but it didn't revolutionize the world.
The Apple Watch is the benchmark of smart watches. The Apple Watch series 4 with ekg is all Tim and it did revolutionize the use of the watch as a healthcare device. However it is debatable how much of the Apple watch was Steve.

IPod + iTunes wasn't just "well liked and popular" . It literally exploded a trillion dollar industry and changed the way that a core human art form is created and consumed forever.
What trillion dollar industry?

Wireless headphones that look the same as wired headphones but with the cords cut off are not comparable. Heck, they didn't even explode the headphone industry.
AirPods redefines convenience in a wireless headphone that other vendors are trying to emulate.

(The Accountant got an amazing compensation package because he kept the stock price high and the margins high. But he did that by mortgaging the future of the company, failing to invest in finding the next big revolution for 11 consecutive years and counting. That's why I think that they should FIRETHEACCOUNTANT.)
Tim actually built the foundation for the future of Apple, which is why he got an amazing compensation package.

Btw, see how easy it is to throw some generalities around and make a broad statement around those generalities without offering up any proof. The end result is a dialog of opinions.
 
And so was the iPhone 2, 3 and 4. See a pattern?


iPhone 6 literally changed the destiny of Apple.


Sure headphones, not AirPods. AirPods have a revolutionary TV w1 chip in them.


The Apple Watch is the benchmark of smart watches. The Apple Watch series 4 with ekg is all Tim and it did revolutionize the use of the watch as a healthcare device. However it is debatable how much of the Apple watch was Steve.


What trillion dollar industry?


AirPods redefines convenience in a wireless headphone that other vendors are trying to emulate.


Tim actually built the foundation for the future of Apple, which is why he got an amazing compensation package.

Btw, see how easy it is to throw some generalities around and make a broad statement around those generalities without offering up any proof. The end result is a dialog of opinions.
LOL

You are trolling me and have done a fantastic job.

You almost had me!

"What trillion dollar industry did the iPod+iTunes ecosystem change? I am not aware of one." LOL

elephant1.jpg
 
LOL

You are trolling me and have done a fantastic job.

You almost had me!

"What trillion dollar industry did the iPod+iTunes ecosystem change? I am not aware of one." LOL

elephant1.jpg
This is about offering up counterpoints to your talking points. Nothing more, nothing less. In a thread about Bluetooth, you have your opinion of TC and Apple and I have mine.
 
This is about offering up counterpoints to your talking points. Nothing more, nothing less. In a thread about Bluetooth, you have your opinion of TC and Apple and I have mine.
Now now. Trolling is fun but enough is enough.

I am thinking that you are maybe not old enough to have known a world before the iMac+OSX in the late 90's, iPod+iTunes in the early 2000's, or iOS in the late 2000's.

So you have maybe read that these things were "popular" (as you put it,) but don't really grasp how they shaped the course of history for literally all 7 billion humans.

No pair of headphones with the cords cut off did that. And no, the watch did not do that.

Yes, the watch is great. But no, it did not catch on by any metric released by Apple.

They literally only sell a few million per quarter, and users throw it away after a couple of years.

Meaning that total active apple watches in the world cannot be more than a few tens of millions. Whis is to say that maybe 0.2-0.4% of the planet uses one. According to the numbers that Apple has released.

Compare that to there being more than 2.71 billion active iPhone-pattern phones in the world.

iPhone changed the world by inventing the modern smartphone, which changed most aspects of daily life for billions of people.

iWatch didn't change most aspects of daily life for billions of people.
 
Now now. Trolling is fun but enough is enough.

I am thinking that you are maybe not old enough to have known a world before the iMac+OSX in the late 90's, iPod+iTunes in the early 2000's, or iOS in the late 2000's.

So you have maybe read that these things were "popular" (as you put it,) but don't really grasp how they shaped the course of history for literally all 7 billion humans.

No pair of headphones with the cords cut off did that. And no, the watch did not do that.

Yes, the watch is great. But no, it did not catch on by any metric released by Apple.

They literally only sell a few million per quarter, and users throw it away after a couple of years.

Meaning that total active apple watches in the world cannot be more than a few tens of millions. Whis is to say that maybe 0.2-0.4% of the planet uses one. According to the numbers that Apple has released.

Compare that to there being more than 2.71 billion active iPhone-pattern phones in the world.

iPhone changed the world by inventing the modern smartphone, which changed most aspects of daily life for billions of people.

iWatch didn't change most aspects of daily life for billions of people.
WOW, does the person who uses the word “trolling” more win the internet for a day?(and I thank you for the age related compliment but it still doesn’t mean your opinion = right)

I just disagree with what you wrote:
- the iPhone is popular but what changed the world was the cellular investment of infrastructure and cheap modern smartphones.
- AirPods fundamentally changed the nature of convenience of headphones
- Apple Watch raised the bar on capturing important information and I can see billions wearing it.
- sales is not just some metric, or maybe it is depending if your trying to show some talking point for or against.
- iPhone 6 literally caused apple’s valuation to skyrocket, it was a game changer.
 
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WOW, does the person who uses the word “trolling” more win the internet for a day?(and I thank you for the age related compliment but it still doesn’t mean your opinion = right)

I just disagree with what you wrote:
- the iPhone is popular but what changed the world was the cellular investment of infrastructure and cheap modern smartphones.
- AirPods fundamentally changed the nature of convenience of headphones
- Apple Watch raised the bar on capturing important information and I can see billions wearing it.
- sales is not just some metric, or maybe it is depending if your trying to show some talking point for or against.
- iPhone 6 literally caused apple’s valuation to skyrocket, it was a game changer.
The modern smartphone was invented by Steve jobs. I dare you to disagree on this forum.

IWatch is a good smart watch but it's adoption is so low that it can be rounded to zero.

I too can see billions wearing it. But it just didn't happen.

The proof is in the pudding and aside from the stock price being high and his personal bonuses getting paid out, the Accountant King just hasn't made any pudding.

That's why I think they should #FIRETHEACCOUNTANT.
 
The modern smartphone was invented by Steve jobs. I dare you to disagree on this forum.
The iPhone was invented by Steve Jobs, a very popular item indeed.

IWatch is a good smart watch but it's adoption is so low that it can be rounded to zero.
Doesn’t mean it’s not a game changer.

I too can see billions wearing it. But it just didn't happen.

The proof is in the pudding and aside from the stock price being high and his personal bonuses getting paid out, the Accountant King just hasn't made any pudding....
We’re just a difference of opinion away as to what we believe Apple produced that was important or not.
 
The iPhone was invented by Steve Jobs, a very popular item indeed.


Doesn’t mean it’s not a game changer.


We’re just a difference of opinion away as to what we believe Apple produced that was important or not.
I guess so. If apple makes something that barely sells, and the world continues on essentially unchanged, you might argue that that was as important as the iPhone.

(You would be wrong, but you might argue that nonetheless.)
 
- the iPhone is popular but what changed the world was the cellular investment of infrastructure and cheap modern smartphones.

Yes, to some extent, going from wired to cellular was huge. But, modern smartphones was Apple. There were 'smartphones' prior to the iPhone but they were pretty horrible.

It was kind of like trying to manage your address book on a 'VCR' type interface, or if you did have something like a Palm Treo, the UI was a bit better (still quite limited), but any kind of interaction with a computer was a total pain (part of the reason I know, is I wrote several sync-tip articles back then trying to help people out).

The iPhone (as limited as it even initially was) was a total game-changer... night and day. I'd also say it was the true starting point of mobile computing. (The iPad kind of being the next leap, though it was invented prior to the iPhone.)

- AirPods fundamentally changed the nature of convenience of headphones

Yeah, I just don't see that. It has replaced the wired for some, I guess. But, there have been tons of bluetooth headphones prior to it. It works a bit better, I guess, but there is nothing foundational there. They are also really friggin' expensive, at what, like $150 every couple years?

- Apple Watch raised the bar on capturing important information and I can see billions wearing it.

Again, I would say it is kind of a revolutionary product, but I don't think I agree on world-changing. There isn't much it can do that a phone won't, yet you almost have to carry a phone. The cellular ability has helped for some verticals, and the health stuff has some verticals. But, overall, it has a way to go for broad adoption.

Up until the current model, it was something I'd not even have wanted if someone would give me one. Certainly not something I'd spend money on. I'm slightly interested in the current one, now, as it would be handy if I were doing something like ocean kayaking (were a phone best not go). However, Apple still hasn't made the OS capable of doing stuff I'd want to do while doing so, like listening to podcasts.

I can see somewhat a future for it, but it's just too early right now. Also, most of the health stuff (besides maybe the heart monitoring for that vertical) is kind of a fad, so we'll see how long that lasts. The popularity of it is more than I anticipated, but eventually people will discover there is much more to good health than 'closing the rings.'

- iPhone 6 literally caused apple’s valuation to skyrocket, it was a game changer.

It might have, but that's relatively irrelevant unless you owned AAPL stock. Public company valuation is mostly about gambling on the future value speculation. It doesn't really mean much of anything in context of real value or good/bad products.

The iPhone 6 didn't game-change on what came prior. It was just an incremental step in the overall chain.
 
...
It might have, but that's relatively irrelevant unless you owned AAPL stock. Public company valuation is mostly about gambling on the future value speculation. It doesn't really mean much of anything in context of real value or good/bad products.

The iPhone 6 didn't game-change on what came prior. It was just an incremental step in the overall chain.
Yes and no. The iPhone 6 was a game changer as it got away from “nobody needs a larger phone” mentality.

It’s nice to know the iPhone 6 was a blockbuster in the same way a hit movie is a blockbuster and weekend revenue is generally broadcast in the outlets.
 
Or, for those of us who prefer smaller phone-sized-phones, the time when Apple got stupid and started transitioning their whole lineup to just big phones. :(

It's all about display size because Apple is selling these devices as fun devices. I had a 5s at work in an OtterBox and it was fine for email, texting and phone calls. I wish Apple would put out an SE sized phone for utilitarian purposes.
 
It's all about display size because Apple is selling these devices as fun devices. I had a 5s at work in an OtterBox and it was fine for email, texting and phone calls. I wish Apple would put out an SE sized phone for utilitarian purposes.

Yeah, except they have a whole lineup of 'fun' devices. What about a device for those of us who want a phone and have iPads and Macs when we need big displays.

I'm not saying they should only make small phones. I just want at least one model the size that Apple used to argue was perfect (and compromised UX if any bigger). I get that most people, especially those that heavily use their phone, are going to make the UX tradeoff to get the screen space. While I don't dislike more screen, I do dislike the bigger form-factor.
 
Yeah, except they have a whole lineup of 'fun' devices. What about a device for those of us who want a phone and have iPads and Macs when we need big displays.

I'm not saying they should only make small phones. I just want at least one model the size that Apple used to argue was perfect (and compromised UX if any bigger). I get that most people, especially those that heavily use their phone, are going to make the UX tradeoff to get the screen space. While I don't dislike more screen, I do dislike the bigger form-factor.

Yes I find it interesting that with all the different models they don't have a more utilitarian model that they would just keep updating. But I'm just an old tech and not the head of Apple. :)
 
Yes I find it interesting that with all the different models they don't have a more utilitarian model that they would just keep updating. But I'm just an old tech and not the head of Apple. :)

I think they are just out of touch, or measuring based on silly metrics or something. I know so many people that love the SE despite it not being the 'latest and greatest.' That's anecdotal, of course, but I can't believe the number wouldn't be near 10% (which it was when the SE launched). I don't buy the argument that the percent is too low to justify it.

And, I think it would be higher if they have both a budget phone AND/OR an actual SE-size version of the full model (as much as possible).
 
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