Boot Camp and Mac Game Developers?

[Object-X]

No big loss

I don't see a big loss here. Game selection on the Mac platform is and has always been dismal. I can't remember the last Mac ported game of any note, can you? I've seen many interesting titles come and go that never got ported and the games that do leave me scratching my head. Why that game? Do peopel actually play that? The coolest PC games are not on the Mac, with a couple exceptions, and there is no word indicating they ever will be. I don't know who's fault that is, but if the Mac gaming industry disappears I don't think many will even notice it's gone. Go get a PS3 and be happy.

 

[zzcoop]

While many would prefer to stay in OSX, lets be honest... this is happening for a reason... it is easier to just adopt windows on our same great Mac machines.

You couldn't pay me enough to adopt Windows.

 

[bluebomberman]

nagromme, I usually agree with you, but not this time.

Most games I've tried have run pretty poorly on my Rev. A iMac (LOTR: Return of the King has a memory leak that eventually kills it under Tiger, Star Wars: KOTOR has awful graphics glitches under Tiger, the Homeworld 2 demo ran at 2fps, the Battlefield demo ran <15fps). There's plenty of horror stories about SimCity 4 and some griping about WoW frame rates under PPC systems in the gaming section of the MacRumors forum. Diablo II occasionally stutters on me for no discernable reason. And there's a bunch of games I haven't been able to play because I'm using a Mac: Freedom Force Vs. The Third Reich, Magic: The Gathering Online, Silent Storm, and all my Windows games from the past 10 years.

I've only been satisfied with the performance of these games on my Mac: Warcraft III, the Neverwinter Nights demo, the Halo demo, and Lego Star Wars.

Sorry, but I'm tired of waiting 6-18 months for a port and paying a price premium when I know the Windows version is sitting in the bargain bin and will give me better performance.

Porting companies like Aspyr are nothing more than middlemen to me. Apple has now let me cut them out.

 

[Doctor Q]

You couldn't pay me enough to adopt Windows.

If there enough people like you, developers would have more incentive to stay cross-platform. But you are a minority and it just got a lot easier for Mac users to use Windows.

 

[RevMedia]

Play on my MacBook

I am playing Battlefield 2 on my MacBook right now!!! And it is amaziing way better than any availible PC Laptop on the market let me know if you guys want some screen of my benchmarks or anything!!!

 

[Lollypop]

I personally think the entire dual boot thing is a risk on apple's part, and I hope that other developers dont have the same view as aspyr. If this does increase hardware sales for apple they should take that money and put it into software development and try to make it easier to write mac os x software. If the dual boot thing has a negative impact on development then the Mac os is dead... I love to mac os to much to even think about it!!!

 

[Spidermanjohn]

Games are for kids and dedicated devices.

Games are for kids and dedicated devices. Mac and Windows are for productivity anything else is masturbatory.

 

[oingoboingo]

Hmmm that makes sense, I can't see there being a lot of people out there who are serious enough about gaming, and dedicated to using a Mac wanting to purchase a copy of Windows just so they can play games.

Legitimate Mac gamers (Read: ones who BUY their games) will likely continue to desire Mac ports. Hopefully the Mac game developers will not be squashed by Boot Camp.

I still desire OS X games. But I'm not going to cut my nose off to spite my face. According to your definition, I'm a legitimate Mac gamer. I've bought Quake 3, UT2004, Homeworld2, Call of Duty, Call of Duty: United Offensive, Battlefield 1942, Doom3, and World of Warcraft. I upgraded the Radeon 9600 card in my PowerMac G5 to a 256MB Radeon 9800 Special Edition purely to increase gaming performance. I don't have a PC for gaming. Hell, I don't even have an Xbox anymore...I sold it about 9 months ago. If I want to play a game, it happens on the Mac.

That said, for me this is the end of the road for my buying of Mac games. Why would I wait months (and sometimes years) for a company like Aspyr to deliver a port of a game, which may or may not be network compatible with the PC version, when I can (now with Apple's full blessing and software support) simply purchase the Windows version of the game the day it is released, reboot, and start playing? Not only that, but I can walk into any gaming shop in the city and I can leave with the game in hand. No more having to drive halfway across town to go to an Apple dealer, or ordering the game in off the web.

If companies like Aspyr can start cutting deals with the games developers so that they co-release Windows and OS X versions of a game at the same time, then sure...I'll buy the OS X version. If, for all other things being equal, the Windows and OS X versions are comparable, I will of course support the OS X developers. But I really don't think this is going to happen.

EDIT: I just wanted to add something. People are talking about the inconvenience of rebooting. Yes, it isn't ideal. But I'll take the relatively minor inconvenience of rebooting instead of the rather major inconvenience of waiting for months for a game to be ported to OS X and then paying full price for it when the Windows version is in the bargain bin...and that's assuming the OS X version is released at all!

 

[ezekielrage_99]

This is good news, when I get my new Intel Mac I'll be able to run 3D Studio MAX, Combustion and some games on it..... dual boot rocks

I just really glad to see that Apple has embraced the idea of dual boot systems because quite a few users out there were really wanting/needing it, now no one can say, well you can't do that on a Mac.

I'm also tempted to laugh at those hackers out there trying to get a dual boot before Apple..... it brings a smile to my face

And does this mean that Apple has made Virtual PC redundant?

 

[QCassidy352]

If there enough people like you, developers would have more incentive to stay cross-platform. But you are a minority and it just got a lot easier for Mac users to use Windows.

I really don't know about that. First, because I don't want to run windows at all. Second, because I like my OS X apps and set up... that's why I have a mac in the first place. The thought of rebooting every time I want to play a game for an hour is totally unappealing.

I'm glad macs can do this now, but honestly, it's going to be annoying as heck to switch back and forth, and I imagine most mac users are going to want to stay in OS X unless they really need XP.

Anyone remember the days of dual boot 9/X? I just picked one and stuck with it for days or weeks at a time because I don't like rebooting and I don't like adjusting to a new set-up once I have an OS configured just how I like it.

It's better to be able to dual boot than not to be able to... but let's be honest. Dual booting sucks.

 

[dakis]

Lokigames, a company that ported games to Linux, went out of business a couple of months after Transgaming released their software for running Windows games on Linux. The exact same thing will happen to Mac game companies.

 

[greenstork]

Hmmm that makes sense, I can't see there being a lot of people out there who are serious enough about gaming, and dedicated to using a Mac wanting to purchase a copy of Windows just so they can play games.

Legitimate Mac gamers (Read: ones who BUY their games) will likely continue to desire Mac ports. Hopefully the Mac game developers will not be squashed by Boot Camp.

I'm a legitimate Mac gamer and there is no way I would choose to wait 6 months to a year for a mac port of the same game. I've been dying to play Civilization 4 and Half Life for some time now. Too bad for Mac game developers unfortunately, but that's the danger with a product like Boot Camp.

Now everyday productivity and creative apps are an entirely different story. These apps rely on the OS much more heavily than interface independent games. I will always buy a Mac version of these products, and I have no problem waiting 6 months for a Mac port. I don't want to create my workflow in Windows, yuck....

 

[greenstork]

I miss the days already where Macs were different, where we had to wait for ports of games, where our processors were different, and where I felt good for using a Mac. I still love my Mac, I will always be an Apple fan, indeed I have never owned a computer that runs Windows. Part of me understands why Apple is doing this, but part of me is sad too. Oh well, I am not that much of a gamer anyway. Star Wars: Galaxies is the only reason I would ever consider doing this on any future Intel Mac that I might own.

And that one Windows version of a game you buy is money out of the pockets of Mac game developers and a further disincentive to porting games on the Mac.

I don't see a big loss here. Game selection on the Mac platform is and has always been dismal. I can't remember the last Mac ported game of any note, can you? ...

Halo, Unreal Tournament, Doom III, World of Warcraft to name a few.

 

[dakis]

You'd have to buy Windows first.
Nobody wants to do that.

Also...
Boot Camp is beta software. (Would you play a beta game?)

well, your arguments are flawed.

1. RIGHT NOW you may need to buy Windows first. In a couple of months you won't. Just have a look at what Transgaming/Cedega did for Linux - they'll definitely do it for Mac OS X as well. Also: most people have Windows at home anyway.

2. Boot Camp may be beta, but Windows (at least according to Microsoft) isn't. Once Windows is installed (which works extremely well using Boot Camp), nobody cares about the beta status. Apart from that: boot camp ain't gonna be beta forever.

3. YES I would play a beta game if it rocked.

 

[Arnaud]

...Game developping is one thing, but what is the next step ?

Many users already mention being happy at the thought of running 3D software on Windows (because the choice is bigger, some apps are better), hence that might be the end of the few 3D apps ported on Os X which were competing on the market.

And then ? What about Adobe ? "You've got a PC, run the Windows version of Photoshop; you've got a mac, reboot and run the Windows version of Photoshop", cheaper for development.

And when all your apps are running under Windows, will you really re-boot that often to just play around with OsX and a few apps ? "Oh crap, I need to retouch this photo again before sending it with Mail, let's just reboot for a second". Uhh

I don't really see this whole business under a good angle. I'd rather see Windows running inside of Os X, for instance, without a reboot needed, that would bring less of a need.

I'm glad with OsX only, because I don't run games on the Mac, but I'm afraid that the Windows-booters help OsX be left behind.

 

[greenstork]

I still desire OS X games. But I'm not going to cut my nose off to spite my face. According to your definition, I'm a legitimate Mac gamer. I've bought Quake 3, UT2004, Homeworld2, Call of Duty, Call of Duty: United Offensive, Battlefield 1942, Doom3, and World of Warcraft. I upgraded the Radeon 9600 card in my PowerMac G5 to a 256MB Radeon 9800 Special Edition purely to increase gaming performance. I don't have a PC for gaming. Hell, I don't even have an Xbox anymore...I sold it about 9 months ago. If I want to play a game, it happens on the Mac.

That said, for me this is the end of the road for my buying of Mac games. Why would I wait months (and sometimes years) for a company like Aspyr to deliver a port of a game, which may or may not be network compatible with the PC version, when I can (now with Apple's full blessing and software support) simply purchase the Windows version of the game the day it is released, reboot, and start playing? Not only that, but I can walk into any gaming shop in the city and I can leave with the game in hand. No more having to drive halfway across town to go to an Apple dealer, or ordering the game in off the web.

If companies like Aspyr can start cutting deals with the games developers so that they co-release Windows and OS X versions of a game at the same time, then sure...I'll buy the OS X version. If, for all other things being equal, the Windows and OS X versions are comparable, I will of course support the OS X developers. But I really don't think this is going to happen.

You nailed it, I'm in the same boat as you. I've upgraded my graphics card for gaming perf. and I purchase 8-12 games per year. I'm not going to wait for slower glitchy ports when the Windows version is already out.

 

[darwen]

You couldn't pay me enough to adopt Windows.

I should have expected as much from a mac forum. I am as avid of a mac user as anyone else here. You must be crazy though if you think OSX is the only way. Why don't you try being a little more open minded. Windows is a mess but I remember hating OSX when I first switched to it. There are may things about macs that many people hate. Even members of a mac forum can be open minded enough to understand that.

 

[JoeKarame]

I can see absolutely no downside to having Windows running well on a Mac. Point blank it's not going to stop me from using Mac specific software - Keynotes is a big example, but also MS Office is so much better on Mac compared to the windows equivalent it's untrue.

If I can play some PC games with ease on the machine too, then so much the better.

But really, it's nothing much more than a novelty for me. I'm happier sticking to console gaming at the moment, and leave my Mac to do everything else. Considering Vista is looking more and more like a lame duck, I'm longing to see what Leopard is going to do for the machine.

 

[Sharewaredemon]

greenstork and oingoboingo, I wasn't sure if legitimate gamers would want drop the cash on a legit copy of Windows to game on, it seems like if you guys are willing, and others, Mac ports of games will likely die off.

I don't see this as a bad or good thing, although I think mac users deserve to be able to play games as well as PC users.

 

[mlrproducts]

Why all this worry for Mac game developers? I mean, when was the last time they were consistently coming out with good games that were appearing on Windows at the same time? Blizzard does good with Warcraft, and Aspyr is alright at bring an OK amount of titles to the Mac (albeit slowly). Other than those two, who is doing anything for us?

As a consumer I've always felt shafted by game companies producing (or choosing not to) for the Mac. Survival of the fittest - put out a good product for a fair price at the right time and the market will work itself out. I don't feel like I owe them anything! POWER TO THE CONSUMER!

 

[Billy Boo Bob]

You couldn't pay me enough to adopt Windows.

Amen, brother. When I get an Intel Mac I'll probably go ahead and install it for those times when I have to run it (I'd actually rather see a VPC style solution, though, that runs at or near native hardware speed), but I sure as heck won't adopt, or adapt. Been there... tried that... hated it.

 

[mandis]

I can understand the uncertainty in the minds of Mac game companies. But some of the developer comments in the same article were much more positive, and I choose to be optimistic and agree with those!

Good for you! Mac games will suffer with boot camp and that's a fact. Anyone in his/her right mind will boot into windows to play their games, as there are currently only 8-9 proper osx native games for the Intel Macs. There are thousands of amazing games for windows right now!

Demand for native Mac apps will increase faster than ever now, and demand drives sales. Developers won't turn away now!

I disagree! Now that you can run windows natively with the support of apple there is absolutely no reason why developers should port any more apps for OSX. Remember the AutoCAD and 3d Studio MAX petitions? No way AutoDesk will ever even consider
Porting anything to OSX anymore!

The only way demand for native Mac apps would decrease is if the number of Mac users willing to "settle for Windows" increases FASTER than the overall growth of the Mac OS X user base.

If Windows users start buying the imacs and MBPs just because they prefer their looks over the Sony and Dell equivalents then it wont be long before OSX users are in the minority.

Settling for Windows means rebooting, giving up iLife and all your Mac apps, abandoning the security and ease of use of OS X, and--don't forget--PAYING for a copy of Windows. That's too much to settle for unless you have to. And then you'll do it only WHEN you have to. Not by choice. You will still demand OS X and OS X apps.

You do realize that an OS is only a means to an end right? I mean what good is an OS when you have nothing to run on it? It's pretty pointless defending a mouse cursor and a window manager don't you think? Windows has A LOT more software, which is readily available. OSX could never compete with that. As for iLife... I'd choose ACDC over iPhoto anytime!

So I see the number of Mac users willing to settle for Windows being VERY small, increased only slightly by people now choosing Boot Camp Macs for their next "PC." (A great many of them will end up using Mac OS X even if that wasn't their intent at first.)

OSX is a very visually pleasing OS, however if time and budget are tight then this kind of luxury is not really a priority. Besides you'll find that not many people are willing to become Apple's crusaders anymore.

Meanwhile I see the overall Mac user base growing a LOT--and growing even more because Boot Camp gives switchers a reassuring safety net.

Result: more Mac OS X users, more Mac OS X apps. Not less.

Now, re games specifically: gamers are the most likely to "settle" for Windows because you're not using the OS at that time, and you're not trying to collaborate among multiple apps. Windows is "good enough" at that point, if you accept the inconvenience of having to reboot just to game. Except for three factors:

1. When you go online to game in Windows (or download content, or chat/email to set up a match, or browse for hints/cheats), you are subject to Windows malware.

2. To game in Windows, you must buy--and take the time to install--a copy of Windows. Mac games don't need that. Mac games will run right off the shelf.

3. If you find Windows gaming acceptable (which I can totally understand), then you ALREADY were gaming in Windows. You owned a PC on the side. Mac owners buying Windows games is NOT anything new with boot camp--it was a factor Mac game companies were already contending with. At least now Mac game companies will have an ever-increasing base to sell to.

I trust the game companies to know more about all this than I, but I tend to think the overall growth of the Mac platform will ultimately help Mac game developers more than the harm done by Intel and Boot Camp. The good will outweigh the bad, and we'll all have more games.

I know I for one will gladly wait a few months more for a native Mac port of a game! Will everyone? No. Will everyone buy a copy of Windows because they can't wait? No. All that is needed is enough new Mac users who want Mac games--and I expect that will happen.

The rest of your comments sound like words of comfort to me...

PS> having said that i do pray that all your comments come true!

 

[BlueRevolution]

You couldn't pay me enough to adopt Windows.

you could pay me enough. say, if you were to pay me enough that I could then go buy a maxed out MBP and Power Mac, with 3 30" ACDs and the works... I'd happily adopt Windows then

 

[Lollypop]

Good for you! Mac games will suffer with boot camp and that's a fact. Anyone in his/her right mind will boot into windows to play their games, as there are currently only 8-9 proper osx native games for the Intel Macs. There are thousands of amazing games for windows right now!




I disagree! Now that you can run windows natively with the support of apple there is absolutely no reason why developers should port any more apps for OSX. Remember the AutoCAD and 3d Studio MAX petitions? No way AutoDesk will ever even consider
Porting anything to OSX anymore!



If Windows users start buying the imacs and MBPs just because they prefer their looks over the Sony and Dell equivalents then it wont be long before OSX users are in the minority.



You do realize that an OS is only a means to an end right? I mean what good is an OS when you have nothing to run on it? It's pretty pointless defending a mouse cursor and a window manager don't you think? Windows has A LOT more software, which is readily available. OSX could never compete with that. As for iLife... I'd choose ACDC over iPhoto anytime!



OSX is a very visually pleasing OS, however if time and budget are tight then this kind of luxury is not really a priority. Besides you'll find that not many people are willing to become Apple's crusaders anymore.



The rest of your comments sound like words of comfort to me...

PS> having said that i do pray that all your comments come true!

Amen brother! Finally someone that does look at the possible down side while still keeping a open mind!

 

[MacsomJRR]

you could pay me enough. say, if you were to pay me enough that I could then go buy a maxed out MBP and Power Mac, with 3 30" ACDs and the works... I'd happily adopt Windows then

Throw in a stack of recordable DVDs and I'm sold