CanadaRAM
macrumors G5
You may pretend to speak for all MR (but I don't believe you), but personally I care about MR users treating other MR users civilly and with respect.
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Boot Camp Expiring?!
- Thread starter amtberg
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You may pretend to speak for all MR (but I don't believe you), but personally I care about MR users treating other MR users civilly and with respect.
HLdan
macrumors 603
You are quoting me as if I was implying that mistreating MR members was acceptable. That's not at all what I said. The OP was upset that Bootcamp was expiring so he can't use Windows on his Mac and he barely uses the Mac OS at all. You claim that the Mac users want potential switchers to buy the Mac however my point is we are not trying to persuade people to buy the Mac for the hardware it's for OS X, do you honestly think that the Mac community would jump for joy if people called themselves switchers but in fact don't want to use OS X but rather install a hopeless OS such as Windows?
panzer06
Contributor
Because PC Magazine said the Macbook Pro is the fastest Vista "PC" on the market! 🙂
Cheers,
Willis
macrumors 68020
look at it this way, Im still using bootcamp 1.2 cause 1.3 and 1.4 werent that great.
so effectively, my license expired some time ago.. windows still works for me..
what im scared of is if i update to leopard, i wont be able to access my windows drive (its got its own HD, not partitioned drive)
so effectively, my license expired some time ago.. windows still works for me..
what im scared of is if i update to leopard, i wont be able to access my windows drive (its got its own HD, not partitioned drive)
TBi
macrumors 68030
You'll be fine. Windows is totally separate from OSX. You won't even need to upgrade bootcamp when you upgrade to leopard!
I always thought your Mac would explode when the clock hits zero! Phew!
panzer06
Contributor
Why no Bootcamp option for Tiger?
I am still annoyed that there is no option for Tiger users.
I can't upgrade to Leopard, since CS2 does not work well under Leopard and I can't afford CS3; several other apps do not work with Leopard and I really see no reason to change since my entire system works fine as it is.
However, I must use Windows for a few work apps and the occasional game when I travel and it is very frustrating to know Apple is either forcing an upgrade or abandoning a segment of their loyal customers.
I understand this same issue happens each time their is an upgrade but by making bootcamp available to Tiger users they effectively implied some level of continued access to the application.
If bootcamp continues to function after 31 December 2007 I will be pleased but still would prefer some official support for which I'm certain many Tiger users would pay a reasonable fee.
I'm a big fan of Apple products (we own a MacPro, MBP (Santa Rosa) and 3 iPods) but this constant abandonment of prior products sure gets old. I understand Apple can get away with this since there are no non-Apple alternatives but some loyalty to the customers that are fiercely loyal to Apple would be nice.
Cheers,
I am still annoyed that there is no option for Tiger users.
I can't upgrade to Leopard, since CS2 does not work well under Leopard and I can't afford CS3; several other apps do not work with Leopard and I really see no reason to change since my entire system works fine as it is.
However, I must use Windows for a few work apps and the occasional game when I travel and it is very frustrating to know Apple is either forcing an upgrade or abandoning a segment of their loyal customers.
I understand this same issue happens each time their is an upgrade but by making bootcamp available to Tiger users they effectively implied some level of continued access to the application.
If bootcamp continues to function after 31 December 2007 I will be pleased but still would prefer some official support for which I'm certain many Tiger users would pay a reasonable fee.
I'm a big fan of Apple products (we own a MacPro, MBP (Santa Rosa) and 3 iPods) but this constant abandonment of prior products sure gets old. I understand Apple can get away with this since there are no non-Apple alternatives but some loyalty to the customers that are fiercely loyal to Apple would be nice.
Cheers,
Krevnik
macrumors 601
Apple wouldn't have even released a beta if it wasn't for the groups pushing to figure out how to get Windows booting on Apple hardware. Apple didn't want a bunch of users sitting on this bootstrapped mechanism (modifying and re-burning the OS CD) for nearly 2 years. So they released the beta to squash the 3rd party solutions before they became ingrained and Apple wouldn't get any traction with their feature.
Now, I can agree that after offering the beta, offering the final version for Tiger users should have been done. However, they have been clear about the intent of Boot Camp since it was released, that it was a Leopard feature, and would be part of Leopard. Any assumptions on our part to the contrary is our own wishing/desire.
The /only/ way Apple could have come out smelling like a rose with Boot Camp was to offer a version for Tiger as well... their other two options hurt them either way, as either people get ingrained on 3rd party solutions, or Apple is perceived as taking away a feature after giving it (which is why public betas are rarely a good thing in reality).
panzer06
Contributor
I'll give you that, the public Beta created the expectation of a feature continuing on the existing platform whether that was their intent or not. I just don't understand how they think shutting out Tiger users is a good idea when many, many users would pay for Tiger bootcamp support.
Leopard is simply not a good option in that it is a very costly upgrade for many of us.
Had bootcamp not come out as a Beta for Tiger I would never sold my Powerbook G4 and purchased a Macbook, and subsequently sold that to buy the MBP. Windows support helped spur sales and Apple knows it!
The only issue I have is Apple leaving behind those of us helping fuel their phenomenal growth. ...And even that would be somewhat more palpable if they had a legitimate reason for doing so.
Cheers,
Krevnik
macrumors 601
And yet, Apple originally never intended to release Boot Camp before Leopard. They are aware of what it has done, but at the same time, it wouldn't have been perceived as leaving anyone behind if they hadn't released the beta for Tiger at all. But then the catch there is the feature would get nearly zero traction and piss people off later if there wasn't a beta, due to alternatives becoming available.
Apple in this case tried to do damage control via the beta, thinking the damage from that route would be less than the damage potential if they let 3rd parties get 2 years to themselves before Apple launched their feature (think Konfabulator and Dashboard all over again).
I am not trying to excuse their actions after they launched the beta (because honestly, taking a feature away after giving it just pisses users off, no matter how good the reason)... just trying to explain that the offering of the feature before Leopard was a reaction to 3rd parties, playing their hand before they were really wanting to, rather than something they carefully planned or intended.
panzer06
Contributor
So true, however, a good business decision (crushing 3rd parties a la Microsoft) doth not good marketing make!
Cheers,
P.S. Perhaps I should try to find out how many users were harmed by this flip-flop and engage in the modern American way - file a class action suit claiming the Beta created an implied contract to provide future Tiger support and by making it generally available caused millions to rely on the feature in their current systems without making any provision for a transition, knowing full well that significant numbers of Beta users would be unable to switch due to application support issues for their existing Mac applications, thereby causing significant quantifiable harm to this class of users.
savanahrose
macrumors 6502a
Isn't a beta to be used to get the bugs out of a program or system or to see how well it will be accepted by everyone? Wouldn't anyone think that bootcamp beta would be going away once it was in Leopard? I don't use it so I don't know how it operates. I get the gist of it from reading about it on these boards.
I still don't understand why someone would put windows on their macs to begin with. Why not just keep the old pc (like I did for my work application) to do the stuff that a mac can not do?
I love my mac and would never go back to a pc except for at work. I could put VPN onto my imac but I don't want my IT department to mess with my mac. This one person worked on my gateway to put the vpn on it and totally screwed up my hard drive and he replace it with a smaller capacity hard drive! I had to buy a new HDrive.
I still don't understand why someone would put windows on their macs to begin with. Why not just keep the old pc (like I did for my work application) to do the stuff that a mac can not do?
I love my mac and would never go back to a pc except for at work. I could put VPN onto my imac but I don't want my IT department to mess with my mac. This one person worked on my gateway to put the vpn on it and totally screwed up my hard drive and he replace it with a smaller capacity hard drive! I had to buy a new HDrive.
Krevnik
macrumors 601
Never saying it did... but sometimes you are damned either way, and have to take the least damning route. A proper Windows compatibility layer should be provided from the OEM, in this case Apple. 3rd party hacks shouldn't be needed for a firmware that could easily have had the BIOS compatibility layer added to it for Windows support. Some of the reasoning behind the effort behind Boot Camp, how it is funded, etc is actually somewhat complex, and goes beyond Apple's walls.
Go ahead, just don't expect to get very far, since Apple has been forward since the very beginning that it was a beta, that it would expire when Leopard released, that it was a Leopard feature, and that you would need to upgrade to continue using it after Leopard came out.
To be blunt, "Caveat emptor" applies in this case. Apple outlined their plans nearly 2 years in advance. To say that the beta created an implied contract (when they had an explicit one saying otherwise, aka, the EULA) is one that would not likely hold up very well in court. Explicit contracts and declarations override any implicit meaning if the two conflict.
panzer06
Contributor
In most cases you are correct, however, as Krevnik so eloquently stated, Apple was probably preempting third-party solutions to the problem. These third-party solutions would work on Tiger and Leopard and eventually create on more reason for Tiger users not to move to Leopard. Now that they've squashed the third-party option, the least Apple could do is offer a separate product (I'd pay) for Tiger users.
As to why Windows, that a whole different topic, just know there are many legitimate reasons this is required and before Bootcamp and Intel Macs I had to take my Powerbook and Dell Laptop on every business trip. 😱
Cheers,
panzer06
Contributor
Perhaps not but in our litigious society, I'm sure some lawyer could find an angle to create a bit of PR difficulty for Apple. Not even saying I'd really like to see a lawsuit, just saying Apple does take our loyalty for granted and whether they warned us or not, they got us hooked and gave us Leopard, which does not work with many of our apps, so we can't switch just to maintain Windows Compatibility. I just hope I don't have to go back to carrying 2 laptops. 🙂
Cheers,
Krevnik
macrumors 601
Well, unless you need the updated drivers present in 2.0, then no, it won't just go kaput on you.
As for app compatibility, that does seem to be a mixed bag... during my time with seeds, apps that I ran into that had issues in Leopard I reported to the developer. Granted, one problem with using developers to test your OS is that they use a different subset of apps than the rest of your users.
That said, I really am scratching my head trying to figure out how big the app compatibility problem is. In the early betas, it was definitely a problem, but I haven't run across a completely broken app under Leopard yet myself.
panzer06
Contributor
The big one for us is Adobe's Creative Suite 2. The state there is no support under Leopard and there are features/functions that will have no resolution. That is a complete no go for us and until we can afford to move to CS3 so is Leopard.
There are quite a few CS2 users out there, many still running on G4 & G5s so no Leopard in their future. Apple is lucky the majority of their user base consists on home users or personal purchases for work because big accounts and schools take forever to migrate to the latest version of anything.
Cheers,
hiimamac
macrumors 6502a
So if I have the install DMG for TIGER (1.4), will it work? Is there a workaround? I have a copy (legit) of volume OSX 10.5 (apple friend) but the bottom line is (at least for pro's), is no PRO TOOLS to date and Logic's CPU goes up almost double with Leopard, so its not worth the update, yet having the ability to run windows is a good thing (SOUND FORGE, some other PC ONY Apps), the argument, well you should have bought a PC (or upgrade to 10.5) is terrible.
Heck, in fact, at the APPLE STORES (ask them), in the back of house as they call it, their machines are still running TIGER and there was a note that said DO NOT UPDATE TO LEOPARD and the back of house machines are key to communications. So if its not good enough for Apple employees, why should the PROS and consumer be Guinea pigs?!? 😱
Happy New Year!!!!!!!
hiimamac
macrumors 6502a
Happy New Year!!!!!!!
So, if you have the DMG 1.4, is there a way to install - change the clock back? And so on? Have read this works, but do NOT want to mess up the OS Tiger install.
Thanks.
TBi
macrumors 68030
Bootcamp is just a GUI for a command line utility built into OSX. You can repartition the drive yourself if you know how to use this command.
You don't actually need bootcamp to install windows. The mac is already set up out of the box to run windows. If you pull your hard drive out and stick in a blank one then you can install windows fully without ever using the "bootcamp" utility.
As for the bootcamp drivers, the time limit is only for the overall installer. You can install all the drivers yourself one by one if needed. If you don't have the driver CD burnt then you can just open the contents of the bootcamp assistant in OSX and find the DMG for this CD inside.
You don't actually need bootcamp to install windows. The mac is already set up out of the box to run windows. If you pull your hard drive out and stick in a blank one then you can install windows fully without ever using the "bootcamp" utility.
As for the bootcamp drivers, the time limit is only for the overall installer. You can install all the drivers yourself one by one if needed. If you don't have the driver CD burnt then you can just open the contents of the bootcamp assistant in OSX and find the DMG for this CD inside.
savanahrose
macrumors 6502a
TuffLuffJimmy
macrumors G3
Eidorian
macrumors Penryn
10.4.6 and additional firmware updates were needed before running the Boot Camp Assistant.
You don't need the Boot Camp Assistant to install another operating system that needs BIOS support after updating OS X and your firmware.
I see it everyday and I've flashed my BIOS twice already.
TBi
macrumors 68030
As Eidorian said there was a firmware update that came out at the same time as Bootcamp which gave the Intel macs a bios for windows. All new Mac's come with this.
EFI is just an updated BIOS. It is an Input/Output system, just not as basic as the older BIOS. All computers have a BIOS, all that the Intel Mac's come with a BIOS but were originally missing compatibility with older versions of BIOS.