BREAKING: Microsoft Proposes Yahoo! Takeover at $31 per Share (44 Billion $ Takeover)

[diamond.g]

yes but vista is not creating market share, it is at the expense of msft's other products.
Vista has gained 10% share of a market that is n% smaller thanks to apple.

Does that mater if Vista's market share is still larger than Apples?

 

[Syrus28]

yes but vista is not creating market share, it is at the expense of msft's other products.
Vista has gained 10% share of a market that is n% smaller thanks to apple.

You think Vista's entire market share is composed of pre-XP users? There are "new" computer users also. I think XP has lost some 7% marketshare since Jan 07. So that 3% (which it still gained in 8 months) is coming from somewhere... And I don't think anyone will admit its coming from Mac OS X, so... We can agree that it is getting new users also.

 

[gifford]

You think Vista's entire market share is composed of pre-XP users? There are "new" computer users also. I think XP has lost some 7% marketshare since Jan 07. So that 3% (which it still gained in 8 months) is coming from somewhere... And I don't think anyone will admit its coming from Mac OS X, so... We can agree that it is getting new users also.

Are you for real?

If apple gains n% market share, MSFT's market share drops n%... simple as that.

You cant have 110% of a pie!

Thats if apple are not taking share from Linux , which they obviously are not.

 

[Syrus28]

Are you for real?

If apple gains n% market share, MSFT's market share drops n%... simple as that.

You cant have 110% of a pie!

Thats if apple are not taking share from Linux , which they obviously are not.

The computer industry is not a stagnant market. It gains NEW users each and every day. To think that Apple and Microsoft correlate that "if apple gains n%, Microsoft looses n%" is kinda ignorant.

Apple + Linux + Microsoft = 100% today, but could equal 99% tomorrow... There aren't "N" amount of users, and those users continue to grow.

 

[gifford]

Does that mater if Vista's market share is still larger than Apples?

Of-course , if a small company is gaining market share and a big company is losing market share. No matter how big the differences between the two companies, and IF the trend continues , one day the small company will be bigger.

 

[Syrus28]

Of-course , if a small company is gaining market share and a big company is losing market share. No matter how big the differences between the two companies, and IF the trend continues , one day the small company will be bigger.

But the small company + big company do not equal 100% of the computer market. Do you think that every Mac user use to be a Windows user? There is room for growth on both parties...

 

[gifford]

The computer industry is not a stagnant market. It gains NEW users each and every day. To think that Apple and Microsoft correlate that "if apple gains n%, Microsoft looses n%" is kinda ignorant.

Apple + Linux + Microsoft = 100% today, but could equal 99% tomorrow... There aren't "N" amount of users, and those users continue to grow.

What?! I said n% not n-number of users, there is a HUGE difference.

And tomorrow 99% can not be the full market share, as full market share would obviously be 100%!

 

[gifford]

But the small company + big company do not equal 100% of the computer market. Do you think that every Mac user use to be a Windows user? There is room for growth on both parties...

Room for growth in terms of total computers sold, but we are talking % of market share here! OMG

 

[Syrus28]

What?! I said n% not n-number of users, there is a HUGE difference.

And tomorrow you can not have 99% of the full market share, as full market share would obviously be 100%!

Im saying that there is not a set-in-stone number of Computer Users. It GROWS every day.

Like i said, Mac+Windows+Linux users of today does not equal 100% tomorrow.

How do you not understand this? There is room for growth in both parties. Do you obviously think that the market is capped and the only way for each parties to get new users is to take from each other? No. But thats what your implying

 

[Syrus28]

Let me try to explain in clearer terms.

Here was your statement

If apple gains n% market share, MSFT's market share drops n%... simple as that.

This clearly implies 100% of Apple's market share is coming from Windows. This, in turn, implies that Microsoft's market share is capped and there is no room for growth. It also implies that for either of the parties to gain market share, they would have to take from each other.

That is completely false. There is room for growth for both parties outside of taking them from each other.

 

[gifford]

Im saying that there is not a set-in-stone number of Computer Users. It GROWS every day.

Like i said, Mac+Windows+Linux users of today does not equal 100% tomorrow.

How do you not understand this? There is room for growth in both parties. Do you obviously think that the market is capped and the only way for each parties to get new users is to take from each other? No. But thats what your implying

Where exactly have I said that the total number of users will fall or not increase?
100% today is 100% tomorow!

1,000,000,000 total computer users 05/02/08 = 100% market share
1,000,000,001 total computer users 06/02/08 = 100% market share

 

[gifford]

Let me try to explain in clearer terms.

Here was your statement


This clearly implies 100% of Apple's market share is coming from Windows. This, in turn, implies that Microsoft's market share is capped and there is no room for growth. It also implies that for either of the parties to gain market share, they would have to take from each other.

That is completely false. There is room for growth for both parties outside of taking them from each other.

Oh my, look at what you are saying above "gain market share", that would suggest a % of the total computers sold at any given day.
If one company is gaining market share, it would make sense (unless the laws of maths physics and reality have changed recently) that anther comany loses market share...


They may well both sell more computers total, EVEN THOUGH one company has decreased it's market share at the expense of another. This is where you are getting confused.

 

[Syrus28]

Posted too early 😀

Ok, lets say the market consists of 100 people. Microsoft has 90 people, Apple has 9 people. Tomorrow, 6 more people join. 5 of them go to Microsoft, 1 to Apple. Microsoft now has 96/106 people, Apple has 10/106. The Next day, 11 people join. Microsoft takes 10, Apple takes 1. Microsoft now has 105/116, Apple has 11/116.

106/ 117 .90598 [Microsoft] 90.5% > 90&

11/117 = .09401 [Apple] 9.4% > 90%

Now I know this is a rough example, and after thinking about it, your partially right. But, its still possible for both Microsoft and Apple to increase their market share from one point, to another point. How? Well if Microsoft even had even 1 period of growth (%) outpacing Mac OSX, then it is possible. Or am I still thinking of it wrong?

 

[GfPQqmcRKUvP]

With 40B operating costs it would actually only take 3 years of 'year on year' 20% decline in sales to bankrupt Microsoft..

..and funnily enough that's beginning to happen - and there's a reason Vista is expensive - it's propping up the company - they simply can't afford to make it cheap!

...and when a company that makes 90% of the worlds operating systems demonstrates they can't even do EVEN that properly it's no wonder people are flocking in their droves to Apple.

And quite right too - Apple should be at the top - it's the correct natural order - the big cats should reign over the fat bloaty worms that stole their way to the top all those years ago...

2012 could be a totally different story if Microsoft continue to fail and Apple continue to create incredible innovative products.

I see Microsoft's desperate dive for Yahoo as further evidence that they haven't got a clue...

Syrus: It's not even worth responding to posts like this. I'll bold the parts that are ignorant.

Let's go over this, Suferrer from the UK:

Apple is making a profit. Microsoft is making a profit. Apple is increasing profit every quarter. Microsoft is increasing profit at a more rapid pace than Apple.


Is that easy enough to get?

 

[dejo]

1,000,000,000 total computer users 05/02/08 = 100% market share
1,000,000,001 total computer users 06/02/08 = 100% market share

You and Syrus28 are confused. Market share is not a measurement based on the total installed base but instead on the number of sales over a period (usually quarters or a whole year) of time. But I agree that 100% is always 100%.

 

[gifford]

You and Syrus28 are confused. Market share is not a measurement based on the total installed base but instead on the number of sales over a period (usually quarters or a whole year) of time. But I agree that 100% is always 100%.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...
"Market share, in strategic management and marketing, is the percentage or proportion of the total available market or market segment that is being serviced by a company."

I dont think I have confused this anywhere.
Though i should have been a bit clearer above by saying "1,000,000,000 total NEW computer users " instead.

Syrus28 on the other hand finds it all very confusing

 

[GfPQqmcRKUvP]

You are both quite right and wrong.


What you are saying is that all companies combined cannot have more than 100% of the market.

What Syrus is saying is that just because there is a 10% increase in the quantity of Mac OSX licenses out does NOT MEAN that there is a 10% decrease in Microsoft Window's market share or of licenses sold.

That is what I gathered, at least.

Either way, gifford, all of your points on the "imminent" doom of Microsoft were addressed.

 

[gifford]

You are both quite right and wrong.


What you are saying is that all companies combined cannot have more than 100% of the market.

What Syrus is saying is that just because there is a 10% increase in the quantity of Mac OSX licenses out does NOT MEAN that there is a 10% decrease in Microsoft Window's market share.

That is what I gathered, at least.

I think I made it clear enough to Syrus that I was talking about apple's increasing 'market share' (thats been in the news) not just OSX Licenses, though they are also increasing obviously.
In-fact i used the words 'market share' 17 times on this page alone 🙂

market share is market share at the end of the day, not total licenses sold by any one OS

 

[Syrus28]

I think I made it clear enough to Syrus that I was talking about apple's increasing 'market share' (thats been in the news) not just OSX Licenses, though they are also increasing obviously.

market share is market share at the end of the day, not total licenses sold

What Im just saying that its not just as easy at "If apple gains n% market share, Microsoft looses n% market share" Because Apple + Microsoft does not = 100%

 

[gifford]

What Im just saying that its not just as easy at "If apple gains n% market share, Microsoft looses n% market share" Because Apple + Microsoft does not = 100%

So are you saying that apples gains are at the expense of Linux?
As that would be the only other main player in the traditional computer market.

I seriously doubt they are gaining fro Linux, so they are gaining from MSFT, there is nobody else.

 

[CRAZYBUBBA]

So are you saying that apples gains are at the expense of Linux?
As that would be the only other main player in the traditional computer market.

I seriously doubt they are gaining fro Linux, so they are gaining from MSFT, there is nobody else.

I think that he means that there is a growth in Personal computing where users are buying computers for the first time for college etc and going apple.

 

[gifford]

I think that he means that there is a growth in Personal computing where users are buying computers for the first time for college etc and going apple.

I know what he is trying to get at, but even a "growth in Personal computing where users are buying computers for the first time" is still 'market share' of which msft is losing % to aapl.

Still the same thing even if they are new users, its just market share.

 

[gifford]

"Ok, lets say the market consists of 100 people. Microsoft has 90 people, Apple has 9 people."

ok so thats...
msft 90%
apple 9%


"Tomorrow, 6 more people join. 5 of them go to Microsoft, 1 to Apple. Microsoft now has 96/106 people, Apple has 10/106."

hang on, microsoft should have 95/106!
and apple 10/106.

ignoring that..

OK I see where the confusion lies, I think you are looking at market share as accumulated over a period of time, which is ok, but then you are also comparing daily rise and falls.

You should really compare by the same timeframe otherwise it's possible to skew the comparison in favor of one or the other due to microblips in the stats.

 

[GfPQqmcRKUvP]

Apple is making a profit. Microsoft is making a profit. Apple is increasing profit every quarter. Microsoft is increasing profit at a more rapid pace than Apple.


Is that easy enough to get?

This is really what we are talking about at the end of the day. What good is marketshare if it doesn't translate to profits? None. But it IS translating to profits, which is a good thing. I just brought up this stuff to people who think Microsoft is one, big failing company. Did you read surferfromuk's post? It's laughable.

 

[Syrus28]

"Ok, lets say the market consists of 100 people. Microsoft has 90 people, Apple has 9 people."

ok so thats...
msft 90%
apple 9%


"Tomorrow, 6 more people join. 5 of them go to Microsoft, 1 to Apple. Microsoft now has 96/106 people, Apple has 10/106."

hang on, microsoft should have 95/106!
and apple 10/106.

ignoring that..

OK I see where the confusion lies, I think you are looking at market share as accumulated over a period of time, which is ok, but then you are also comparing daily rise and falls.

You should really compare by the same timeframe otherwise it's possible to skew the comparison in favor of one or the other due to microblips in the stats.

I see where I was wrong. 87% is 87% no matter if its 87/100 or 174/200. Because along with the increase of new users, both parties experience new users.

However, Microsoft [the big company] is in the most favorable position. Apple [the little company], gets, what, maybe 75% of its users from people who go to Mac OS X to "escape" Windows.

Now, even with how much Vista was criticized, outsold all of Mac OS X (been out 7 years) in 8 months. What happens if Windows 7 is good? Thats what I think Apple has to worry about - another successful Windows. If that happens, Apple's main supply line for new users is suddenly cut when Windows suddenly satisfies its users needs. It has to come sometime.

In the case of Apple, no matter how good their OS "just works", Windows satisfies the large majority of users. So they see no reason to change.