Can Surface 2 replace a laptop?

[Michael Goff]

Hehe, it's is kind of hilarious to read "It can do everything Windows can, except running legacy Windows programs" type of statements. It's like saying my car can do everything other cars can do, except drive on the freeway.

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It's a weird place to be, owning a RT device.

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I have no idea how MS thought it could out ipad the ipad, morons. Throwing away their BIGGEST advantage in legacy programs was just such a moronic move you can't put a price on, oh wait you can, $900 million.

I really don't get why other people's purchases bother you so much. I have, and love, my Surface RT. Seriously. It's more awesome than you're giving it credit for. Then again with your "I love Atom" push, I wonder if you work at Intel.

 

[spinedoc77]

I really don't get why other people's purchases bother you so much. I have, and love, my Surface RT. Seriously. It's more awesome than you're giving it credit for. Then again with your "I love Atom" push, I wonder if you work at Intel.

It's just a discussion, don't take it personally. You spend a lot of time defending your purchase, if you are happy with it then enjoy it and don't stress about it. It's my opinion that RT is garbage, and not only that but it's something that has, is currently, and in the future will HEAVILY hurt Microsoft. It's my opinion though, nothing more and nothing less. My bitterness stems from seeing Microsoft waste such an incredible opportunity in the mobile space.

I'm glad you enjoy yours though, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Michael Goff]

It's just a discussion, don't take it personally. You spend a lot of time defending your purchase, if you are happy with it then enjoy it and don't stress about it. It's my opinion that RT is garbage, and not only that but it's something that has, is currently, and in the future will HEAVILY hurt Microsoft. It's my opinion though, nothing more and nothing less. My bitterness stems from seeing Microsoft waste such an incredible opportunity in the mobile space.

I'm glad you enjoy yours though, nothing wrong with that.

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree and call it that.

I don't mean to sound defensive, it's just ... I'm so tired of people bleating on about Chromebooks while in the same sentence calling RT a failure. And when it comes to you, well, you just really seem to like those Bay Trail Tablets.

Oh, and I don't know why people say that legacy is the only benefit of Windows. Microsoft has some kick-*buy some apples* software developers on their side. I think that's their biggest strength, how amazing they can make their programs that they build into Windows.

 

[spinedoc77]

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree and call it that.

I don't mean to sound defensive, it's just ... I'm so tired of people bleating on about Chromebooks while in the same sentence calling RT a failure. And when it comes to you, well, you just really seem to like those Bay Trail Tablets.

Oh, and I don't know why people say that legacy is the only benefit of Windows. Microsoft has some kick-*buy some apples* software developers on their side. I think that's their biggest strength, how amazing they can make their programs that they build into Windows.

I didn't mean to make you feel like you made a bad purchase, if you are happy with it then that's all that matters.

I'm just a big Microsoft fanboy, I've been one for a long time from when I first picked up a Windows CE handheld device, all the way through Windows smartphones and Windows tablets. MS was an early pioneer of both smartphones and tablets. I've always dreamed of having a full windows experience on a real star trek like tablet. It's not that I necessarily disagree with the RT strategy, heck everything has to go mobile to some degree eventually. It's just that they will never beat Apple or even Google using the same strategy. Their wedge into the market was having a full OS, was having no compromises like iOS and Android have. But in releasing RT they just said hey here is another compromised toy OS just in case you were hiding in a cave for the last 5 years and didn't already buy a tablet.

So it's just bitterness because I see a humungous wasted opportunity. IMO if MS had released an Atom tablet as the surface it would have been much huger than the $900 million loss they sustained. Imagine magnesium alloy casing, kickstand, click on keyboard, Microsoft pedigree, but with an Atom CPU and a FULL version of windows with the same thinness, weight, size and price of a RT tablet and cheaper than an ipad. Come on, tell me that wouldn't entice you a little bit. Tell me that wouldn't have enticed a heck of a lot of consumers out there, especially if MS had marketed these correctly instead of those stupid dancing keyboard commercials.

 

[laserfox]

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree and call it that.

I don't mean to sound defensive, it's just ... I'm so tired of people bleating on about Chromebooks while in the same sentence calling RT a failure..

I completely agree with this statement. In fact I read his previous comment where he said he would never use Windows RT because you can't install x86 programs then in the same sentence say he would absolutely get a Chromebook

Windows RT not only does much more than a Chromebook natively - it offers a much better touch experience for tablets and hybrids as well as great productivity suite Office for free. Google Docs doesn't even compare.

 

[Michael Goff]

I didn't mean to make you feel like you made a bad purchase, if you are happy with it then that's all that matters.

I'm just a big Microsoft fanboy, I've been one for a long time from when I first picked up a Windows CE handheld device, all the way through Windows smartphones and Windows tablets. MS was an early pioneer of both smartphones and tablets. I've always dreamed of having a full windows experience on a real star trek like tablet. It's not that I necessarily disagree with the RT strategy, heck everything has to go mobile to some degree eventually. It's just that they will never beat Apple or even Google using the same strategy. Their wedge into the market was having a full OS, was having no compromises like iOS and Android have. But in releasing RT they just said hey here is another compromised toy OS just in case you were hiding in a cave for the last 5 years and didn't already buy a tablet.

So it's just bitterness because I see a humungous wasted opportunity. IMO if MS had released an Atom tablet as the surface it would have been much huger than the $900 million loss they sustained. Imagine magnesium alloy casing, kickstand, click on keyboard, Microsoft pedigree, but with an Atom CPU and a FULL version of windows with the same thinness, weight, size and price of a RT tablet and cheaper than an ipad. Come on, tell me that wouldn't entice you a little bit. Tell me that wouldn't have enticed a heck of a lot of consumers out there, especially if MS had marketed these correctly instead of those stupid dancing keyboard commercials.

With Office, yes?

Because that would totally have pulled me in, at least to try it out.

VaporMag... I seriously don't know why more companies don't do it.

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I completely agree with this statement. In fact I read his previous comment where he said he would never use Windows RT because you can't install x86 programs then in the same sentence say he would absolutely get a Chromebook

Windows RT not only does much more than a Chromebook natively - it offers a much better touch experience for tablets and hybrids as well as great productivity suite Office for free. Google Docs doesn't even compare.

Well, it's because for whatever reason people love to hate Windows RT. At least Spinedoc has a reason, he sees it as a waste against atom Windows tablets. He doesn't seem like he would buy a Chromebook, either, but I may be wrong.

 

[spinedoc77]

With Office, yes?

Because that would totally have pulled me in, at least to try it out.

VaporMag... I seriously don't know why more companies don't do it.

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Well, it's because for whatever reason people love to hate Windows RT. At least Spinedoc has a reason, he sees it as a waste against atom Windows tablets. He doesn't seem like he would buy a Chromebook, either, but I may be wrong.

Nah I wouldn't buy a chromebook, I see them as useless as well for my needs. But remember, Google makes its money off of eyeballs not hardware/software.

See the thing is, it all has to go mobile sometime anyhow. iOS and Android apps will mature to become as good as desktop apps someday. When that happens Microsoft loses its key advantage, so it needs to drive in a wedge NOW and gain significant market share so when that day does come they are prepared. iOS and Android tablets can't truly replace desktops and laptops other than some specialized cases or by shoehorning functions, and that shoehorning shows big time. But a full windows tablet CAN replace a desktop and/or a laptop, that's a huge strength IMO.

Plus I'm just not seeing any advantage to RT over windows. The only advantages I've seen mentioned are the quality hardware and the questionable advantage of security. Otherwise there is no advantage, RT hardware isn't lighter, it isn't thinner, it doesn't have longer battery life, etc etc. So it just baffles me why people give up something like legacy programs. I don't mean that with any disrespect, I respect you guys that chose RT, I'm just not understanding why you would choose that over full windows.

 

[Michael Goff]

Nah I wouldn't buy a chromebook, I see them as useless as well for my needs. But remember, Google makes its money off of eyeballs not hardware/software.

See the thing is, it all has to go mobile sometime anyhow. iOS and Android apps will mature to become as good as desktop apps someday. When that happens Microsoft loses its key advantage, so it needs to drive in a wedge NOW and gain significant market share so when that day does come they are prepared.

Plus I'm just not seeing any advantage to RT over windows. The only advantages I've seen mentioned are the quality hardware and the questionable advantage of security. Otherwise there is no advantage, RT hardware isn't lighter, it isn't thinner, it doesn't have longer battery life, etc etc. So it just baffles me why people give up something like legacy programs. I don't mean that with any disrespect, I respect you guys that chose RT, I'm just not understanding why you would choose that over full windows.

Okay, I'll elaborate on why I chose the Surface RT over a competing atom tablet. One of the biggest draws to me was Office. At the point when I got it, the only other option was to .. well, buy Office alongside a tablet. That's 100$ for me, student costs and all that. The next reason is because of the VaporMag, but you already said that. The third reason why the cost. It cost me 350$ for the Surface RT and an additional 130$ for the good keyboard. That's 480$ for both. Then we have the fact that I have full Windows any time I want to install it on my MBA. This is meant to be an iPad+ basically. I don't really need much more.

FINALLY, we come to an advantage that I don't think can be underestimated. ARM. No, not the power of the Tegra 3, not the battery life, though at the same time dealing with both of those. If you make a piece of software that works on a limited amount of hardware, you're able to squeeze more out of it. In terms of desktop software, it's like how Pixelmator is so fast because it's optimized for the Mac.

I have seen Microsoft be able to do so much with a Tegra 3. When it first came out, it was a laggy PoS. Now I don't see lag 90% of the time.

Imagine if they had used something better than a Tegra 3.

So, yes, the final reason is more about the future and possible optimizations of an ARM software. They've gotten the original RT to run about as well as it can, I think, but they're likely still not there when it comes to the Tegra 4. Then the Tegra 5 comes out, and so forth. I just see that as a potential advantage when thrown against an OS that is, by design, supposed to support every single piece of hardware (CPU/GPU/etc) out there.

 

[spinedoc77]

Okay, I'll elaborate on why I chose the Surface RT over a competing atom tablet. One of the biggest draws to me was Office. At the point when I got it, the only other option was to .. well, buy Office alongside a tablet. That's 100$ for me, student costs and all that. The next reason is because of the VaporMag, but you already said that. The third reason why the cost. It cost me 350$ for the Surface RT and an additional 130$ for the good keyboard. That's 480$ for both. Then we have the fact that I have full Windows any time I want to install it on my MBA. This is meant to be an iPad+ basically. I don't really need much more.

FINALLY, we come to an advantage that I don't think can be underestimated. ARM. No, not the power of the Tegra 3, not the battery life, though at the same time dealing with both of those. If you make a piece of software that works on a limited amount of hardware, you're able to squeeze more out of it. In terms of desktop software, it's like how Pixelmator is so fast because it's optimized for the Mac.

I have seen Microsoft be able to do so much with a Tegra 3. When it first came out, it was a laggy PoS. Now I don't see lag 90% of the time.

Imagine if they had used something better than a Tegra 3.

So, yes, the final reason is more about the future and possible optimizations of an ARM software. They've gotten the original RT to run about as well as it can, I think, but they're likely still not there when it comes to the Tegra 4. Then the Tegra 5 comes out, and so forth. I just see that as a potential advantage when thrown against an OS that is, by design, supposed to support every single piece of hardware (CPU/GPU/etc) out there.

All Atom tablets come with the same free Office home and student 2013 that the RT units come with, they changed this some time ago. Not just the smaller tablets, but the larger units also. I don't know if this is limited time, but it's still going on. The TPT2 I purchased like 4 months ago had the free Office on it.

As for cost, Atom tablets are very cheap. You can get the Asus T100 for example, WITH keyboard dock, 64gb hard drive, etc. for $399 retail, but I see them for $379 on amazon. If you like something smaller the Dell Venue 8" can be had for $259 at microcenter.

As for ARM, is there any specific ARM software that only runs on RT and not on the Metro portion of a full windows x86 tablet? I didn't think there was, but I'm not sure. Or if it does run on both hardwares, is there an app that is optimized for ARM that runs that much better on it?

Baytrail is pretty freakin insane btw, running Skyrim and Crysis for example is pretty damn incredible. Running photoshop is awesome, etc etc.

Great discussion, hope you don't take it personal but I'm still not seeing any advantages.

 

[Michael Goff]

All Atom tablets come with the same free Office home and student 2013 that the RT units come with, they changed this some time ago. Not just the smaller tablets, but the larger units also. I don't know if this is limited time, but it's still going on. The TPT2 I purchased like 4 months ago had the free Office on it.

As for cost, Atom tablets are very cheap. You can get the Asus T100 for example, WITH keyboard dock, 64gb hard drive, etc. for $399 retail, but I see them for $379 on amazon. If you like something smaller the Dell Venue 8" can be had for $259 at microcenter.

As for ARM, is there any specific ARM software that only runs on RT and not on the Metro portion of a full windows x86 tablet? I didn't think there was, but I'm not sure. Or if it does run on both hardwares, is there an app that is optimized for ARM that runs that much better on it?

Baytrail is pretty freakin insane btw, running Skyrim and Crysis for example is pretty damn incredible. Running photoshop is awesome, etc etc.

Great discussion, hope you don't take it personal but I'm still not seeing any advantages.

The Bay Trail tablets were actually released shortly after I bought the Surface RT. And by shortly, I mean somewhere in the two month range. Maybe that's why I only saw Office on the RT?

As for the optimization, I was talking about OS level optimization. Sorry if I didn't make any sense, the program thing was an example of hot software made for the specific hardware is awesome.

 

[B...]

If I wanted to buy my first computer, would you guys recommend going all out and getting a $1600 MacBook Pro, an $800 Surface 2 (with accessories, etc) or a $300 Chromebook? I need something that'll last at least two years, hopefully more. I could spend the $1600, but knowing that there are other options, I have a hard time justifying the cost.

 

[MRU]

If I wanted to buy my first computer, would you guys recommend going all out and getting a $1600 MacBook Pro, an $800 Surface 2 (with accessories, etc) or a $300 Chromebook? I need something that'll last at least two years, hopefully more. I could spend the $1600, but knowing that there are other options, I have a hard time justifying the cost.

A MacBook Pro will likely last you 5+ years

A surface 2 will likely show it's age after 2.

A chromebook is inexpensive but will basically always need access to wifi and you can do less with a chromebook than even the surface.


If you need a powerful laptop that is future proof you can't go wrong with a MacBook Pro. However if you are not a power user and I suspect you are not - to even consider a chromebook instead of - then paying 1600 for a more powerful computer may be a waste of its power if you are only browsing the net and writing the odd document.

Basically if after doing research a chromebook would actually allow you to do everything you actually need from a laptop then spend the $300.

Seriously why spend more for hardware that you are not benefiting from if it isn't being used to its full potential.

Heck even if you are unsure and think a chromebook would suffice I would spend the $300 - if it turns out down the line that you need more power - sell it off a few months later on Craigslist etc.. later for $150-200.

 

[B...]

A MacBook Pro will likely last you 5+ years

A surface 2 will likely show it's age after 2.

A chromebook is inexpensive but will basically always need access to wifi and you can do less with a chromebook than even the surface.


If you need a powerful laptop that is future proof you can't go wrong with a MacBook Pro. However if you are not a power user and I suspect you are not - to even consider a chromebook instead of - then paying 1600 for a more powerful computer may be a waste of its power if you are only browsing the net and writing the odd document.

Basically if after doing research a chromebook would actually allow you to do everything you actually need from a laptop then spend the $300.

Seriously why spend more for hardware that you are not benefiting from if it isn't being used to its full potential.

Heck even if you are unsure and think a chromebook would suffice I would spend the $300 - if it turns out down the line that you need more power - sell it off a few months later on Craigslist etc.. later for $150-200.

Thanks for your response. Would you go for a Chromebook or a Surface 2, specifically? I like the idea of both, but to me the Surface is a really cool device with its well-made body, touchscreen, keyboard, etc.

 

[akuma13]

For my needs. I would rather spend the money on a good convertible. I needed a portable computer for intro to programming and I also need a tablet. I tried to settle on a Note pro tablet. Beside the QC issues it didn't have all the apps I wanted. Earlier in the year I bought a chrome book and again it wasn't enough for my needs. I spent $850 on a Sony Vaio Flip/fit and I think i've found a happy medium between a tablet and a laptop.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Do you ever use any programs besides a web browser? If not, a Chromebook is a good choice. If you think you'll ever need Office (not google docs) or offline usability, I'd go with the surface.

Windows 8 is a good OS (especially on touch) and although the size and weight of the tablet will show its age after 2 years, if you connect it to a monitor and add a mouse + keyboard, it'll last 5 years too, with ease.

Having said all that, I'd rather a fully featured laptop. In that case, I'd get a Macbook Air.

 

[Surface2Owner]

Thanks for your response. Would you go for a Chroebook or a Surface 2, specifically? I like the idea of both, but to me the Surface is a really cool device with its well-made body, touchscreen, keyboard, etc.

I can't see you going wrong with either. Frankly, I believe both will start to show its age after a few years. I still rarely touch my x220 since purchasing my Surface 2, and I don't plan to buy another laptop with my own cash for the foreseeable future, if ever. I honestly believe that I can do everything I need to do from my Surface (as I am typing this on my Surface).

However, people have different uses. I do think most people buy more than they need, which is completely fine. I used to be the same way.

Probably the best thing you can do is stop listening to people on these forums, including myself, and just trust your own judgment. Life is too short to debate these type of things when all that matters is that you get something that works for you. If you are like me, a lot of different gadgets will probably fit the bill.

 

[iPhone-swe]

its a great device!

I have a Surface 2 and it replaced my laptop.
Its an awesome device, the browser can handle almost everything. HDMI out, USB port and sd/card reader is just a SUPER PLUS for this device. The only downside is the appstore. But that will probably change soon, with the merger of the stores. And a jailbreak is in the making, and soon to be released!

watch what this amazing device can do! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG1b0yBJHLM

 

[spinedoc77]

I have a Surface 2 and it replaced my laptop.
Its an awesome device, the browser can handle almost everything. HDMI out, USB port and sd/card reader is just a SUPER PLUS for this device. The only downside is the appstore. But that will probably change soon, with the merger of the stores. And a jailbreak is in the making, and soon to be released!

watch what this amazing device can do! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG1b0yBJHLM

What do you mean a jailbreak? For the Surface 2? I assume you mean the hack to let it run non-ARM apps/programs. I thought that was canned because the hardware was not powerful enough to emulate.

This was one of the projects: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934

Why shoehorn non-ARM functionality, why not just buy an Intel windows tablet?

 

[iPhone-swe]

"What do you mean a jailbreak? For the Surface 2? I assume you mean the hack to let it run non-ARM apps/programs. I thought that was canned because the hardware was not powerful enough to emulate."

Hardware not capable? Even the first Tegra 3 Surface had the jailbreak and still has the jailbreak but you need to be on Windows 8.0 rt.
The first Surface RT could run games like quake 1, Quake 2, quake 3 arena, Age of empires and scumm vm emulator etc etc etc.

So the Tegra 4 is very capable! And this project is still on going.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2663906&page=8

"Why shoehorn non-ARM functionality, why not just buy an Intel windows tablet?"
I don't get this argument of yours, why not do it? Best of two worlds.
The same could be said about the iPad and Android tablets and its platform, on which people have been trying to get Fallout 1 and 2 and Little big adventure 1 and 2, and other games to emulate on their hardware. Why not buy a intel tablet?

 

[sracer]

Technically speaking, a jailbreak for the Surface is no different than a jailbreak for iOS devices... it allows the Surface to run unsigned apps. The Surface RT/2 is locked down to only allow running "signed" apps. The only signing being done is by Microsoft via the Windows App Store.

If the Surface 2 is jailbroken (highly unlikely), then that opens up the possibility of:
- running legacy apps that have been recompiled for ARM. (like Audacity)
- running an interpreter/emulator layer to allow the running of x86 software.

As for the question of the Surface 2 replacing a laptop/notebook, the answer is a qualified, "Yes".

The Surface RT/2 has an accessible filesystem, supports a wide range of peripherals and printers, hardware connectivity, etc. Obviously it comes down to an individual's use case, but the Surface 2 is arguably the tablet in the best position to replace a notebook.

 

[spinedoc77]

"What do you mean a jailbreak? For the Surface 2? I assume you mean the hack to let it run non-ARM apps/programs. I thought that was canned because the hardware was not powerful enough to emulate."

Hardware not capable? Even the first Tegra 3 Surface had the jailbreak and still has the jailbreak but you need to be on Windows 8.0 rt.
The first Surface RT could run games like quake 1, Quake 2, quake 3 arena, Age of empires and scumm vm emulator etc etc etc.

So the Tegra 4 is very capable! And this project is still on going.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2663906&page=8

"Why shoehorn non-ARM functionality, why not just buy an Intel windows tablet?"
I don't get this argument of yours, why not do it? Best of two worlds.
The same could be said about the iPad and Android tablets and its platform, on which people have been trying to get Fallout 1 and 2 and Little big adventure 1 and 2, and other games to emulate on their hardware. Why not buy a intel tablet?

Very interesting about the capability. The project I quoted said one of the reasons they stopped was due to the lack of power, but I would assume that was before the Surface 2 came out. I haven't looked into it much, but it seems it's much more powerful than the Surface 1. I know the power issue was because programs needed to be emulated, as they were written to run on Intel CPU's, not ARM ones.

As for my argument, I don't get why others wouldn't get it. How do you get the best of both worlds? You lose the desktop/legacy side completely, except for Office. You lose PC gaming, only being able to run apps and games from the app store which are pretty much all watered down "angry birds" type games.

With all the discussion back and forth no one has yet to put up a reason why you should get a RT tablet over an Intel tablet. The only plausible reason someone has come up with is in case Intel loses viability and then MS can fall back to ARM. But Intel seems like they are on a major roll, their Atom CPU's are just awesome this 2nd generation and can chew up anything you throw at them. Other than this there is no advantage, RT tablets are not thinner, cheaper, don't have better battery life, don't run apps better, etc etc. I'm not trying to disrespect your purchase, just trying to understand it in terms of discussing it. If you are happy and it serves your needs then more power to you.

So in the end I agree with what you said "Why not buy a intel tablet?" The elephant in the room is RT owners wanting a "jailbreak", in obvious terms you guys are trying to hack the ability to run desktop programs back into RT. Wouldn't that have been solved by just buying an Intel tablet?

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Technically speaking, a jailbreak for the Surface is no different than a jailbreak for iOS devices... it allows the Surface to run unsigned apps. The Surface RT/2 is locked down to only allow running "signed" apps. The only signing being done is by Microsoft via the Windows App Store.

If the Surface 2 is jailbroken (highly unlikely), then that opens up the possibility of:
- running legacy apps that have been recompiled for ARM. (like Audacity)
- running an interpreter/emulator layer to allow the running of x86 software.

As for the question of the Surface 2 replacing a laptop/notebook, the answer is a qualified, "Yes".

The Surface RT/2 has an accessible filesystem, supports a wide range of peripherals and printers, hardware connectivity, etc. Obviously it comes down to an individual's use case, but the Surface 2 is arguably the tablet in the best position to replace a notebook.

I guess the question is just how well will legacy/x86 apps run on an emulator. I'm sure it will vary, but I highly doubt you can run high end stuff like photoshop or Crysis. I think it's the absolute worst replacement for a notebook, but that's just my opinion.

 

[iPhone-swe]

With all the discussion back and forth no one has yet to put up a reason why you should get a RT tablet over an Intel tablet. The only plausible reason someone has come up with is in case Intel loses viability and then MS can fall back to ARM. But Intel seems like they are on a major roll, their Atom CPU's are just awesome this 2nd generation and can chew up anything you throw at them. Other than this there is no advantage, RT tablets are not thinner, cheaper, don't have better battery life, don't run apps better, etc etc. I'm not trying to disrespect your purchase, just trying to understand it in terms of discussing it. If you are happy and it serves your needs then more power to you.

So in the end I agree with what you said "Why not buy a intel tablet?" The elephant in the room is RT owners wanting a "jailbreak", in obvious terms you guys are trying to hack the ability to run desktop programs back into RT. Wouldn't that have been solved by just buying an Intel tablet?

Reasons I can think of is price, weight and performance, battery life. A cheaper intel tablet cant compete with the ARM processors on battery life and performance. With RT tablets you also get Office for free, which is just awesome for students.
If you go for the more expensive options like the Surface PRO 2 you have the performance, but you wont be able to match the weight or battery life of an ARM tablet.

And all your points are valid for iPhone jailbreaking community as well. I have always been into jailbreaking my iPhone, because its fun, and you are able to change and customize things. The jailbreaking community for iPhone and ipad was crazy big. But of course everyone who likes to jailbreak their idevice, could have bought an android phone instead. So why do people do it? Because its fun.

 

[spinedoc77]

Reasons I can think of is price, weight and performance, battery life. A cheaper intel tablet cant compete with the ARM processors on battery life and performance. With RT tablets you also get Office for free, which is just awesome for students.
If you go for the more expensive options like the Surface PRO 2 you have the performance, but you wont be able to match the weight or battery life of an ARM tablet.

And all your points are valid for iPhone jailbreaking community as well. I have always been into jailbreaking my iPhone, because its fun, and you are able to change and customize things. The jailbreaking community for iPhone and ipad was crazy big. But of course everyone who likes to jailbreak their idevice, could have bought an android phone instead. So why do people do it? Because its fun.

Atom tablets are pretty evenly priced, with some models even cheaper than the Surface 2. Weight is about the same. Battery life is about the same if not better on Atom. Performance is about the same from the benchmarks I've seen, that is for apps since RT doesn't run legacy programs or games so we can't benchmark those. You get Office for free with Atom tablets as well. No arguments in terms of the Surface Pro, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

As for jailbreaking for fun, I hear ya, I can definitely see that. I don't think the average consumer will want to jump thru those hoops though. I read through that thread and it seems like jailbreaking RT is going to be pretty complicated, and there is really only a promise that someone has made progress with no proof. Still, it will be interesting to see. What would scare me is that with iOS at least we only get an update or 2 per year, where MS updates windows several times each month so any exploits or holes are going to be closed up very quickly.

Good stuff though, I don't mean to put your purchase down. I'll keep my eye out on the jailbreaking status, and after that if some dev writes an emulator program for x86 programs. I like that stuff, like being able to run OSx on a surface Pro, neat stuff to tinker with.

 

[sracer]

I guess the question is just how well will legacy/x86 apps run on an emulator. I'm sure it will vary, but I highly doubt you can run high end stuff like photoshop or Crysis. I think it's the absolute worst replacement for a notebook, but that's just my opinion.

That's because you used 2 extreme cases. There ARE applications somewhere more powerful than Notepad that don't require the resources of Photoshop or Crysis.

x86 emulator/interpreter is not the ideal solution, it isn't even an actual solution at this point. Those who were jailbroken under Windows RT 8.0 (on the sluggish Surface RT) and ran some legacy apps that were recompiled for ARM, such as Audacity and Notepad++ reported that performance was quite adequate.

The point is: legacy support is not required for the Surface 2 to be able to replace notebooks. If one's use case requires legacy apps then obviously the Surface can replace it.

 

[spinedoc77]

That's because you used 2 extreme cases. There ARE applications somewhere more powerful than Notepad that don't require the resources of Photoshop or Crysis.

x86 emulator/interpreter is not the ideal solution, it isn't even an actual solution at this point. Those who were jailbroken under Windows RT 8.0 (on the sluggish Surface RT) and ran some legacy apps that were recompiled for ARM, such as Audacity and Notepad++ reported that performance was quite adequate.

The point is: legacy support is not required for the Surface 2 to be able to replace notebooks. If one's use case requires legacy apps then obviously the Surface can replace it.

Like I asked before, why would you want to limit yourself to not having desktop/legacy apps if the surface 2 doesn't bring any benefits? I understand what you guys and others in this thread are saying, that it works for your needs. I just don't get throwing away something as huge as legacy app support, that's the single largest Windows advantage by far over other dumb tablets. What does RT have that full windows doesn't have?

I understand there isn't an answer, and I don't want it to seem like I'm making your purchase any less valuable than it is to your needs. I'm genuinely curious as I feel it's quite detrimental to Microsoft and I'd like to see them do well.