Can Surface 2 replace a laptop?

[sracer]

Like I asked before, why would you want to limit yourself to not having desktop/legacy apps if the surface 2 doesn't bring any benefits?

Here are some reasons/benefits for not having legacy apps:

• Improved battery life (over full Windows tablets)
• Reduced/eliminated exposure to malware
• Better performance (no legacy bloat)
• Dual mode (tablet / netbook)

That will certainly change as the Bay Trail style processors improve, but for right now, the Surface 2 value (price/functionality) is superior to the Surface Pro, IMO.

Legacy/x86 support is something that theoretically sounds like a benefit. But in actual practice isn't so great. Those legacy apps are not designed for touch. Using those apps are impractical when using a tablet in "tablet mode" (touch only, no external keyboard/pointer).

I examined the legacy apps that I might consider using if I the tablet supported them, and I concluded that the IDEA of using the apps on a tablet sounded better than it would actually be.

 

[iPhone-swe]

That will certainly change as the Bay Trail style processors improve, but for right now, the Surface 2 value (price/functionality) is superior to the Surface Pro, IMO.

This.
If bay trail processors began to outperform the ARM processors, then of course I would considered buying one.
But every review I have seen comparing the Surface 2 and its tegra 4 vs bay trail tablets, bay trail tablets still cant keep up on battery life, performance or quality of the product in general.

And you need to remember that at the moment there is a market for tablets with tablet OS:s. Did you see people jumping ships from Android or Apple, to buy a Windows bay trail tablet?
People who want a tablet is content with tablet OS, and tablets in general are consumption devices. The difference is that Surface 2 actually can replace a laptop, while doing what other tablet do.

By the way, you don't need to worry about making me feel insecure about my purchase, as that wont happen Every time I use the IE11 browser on the Surface 2 I get blow away, its really impressive.

 

[spinedoc77]

Here are some reasons/benefits for not having legacy apps:

• Improved battery life (over full Windows tablets)
• Reduced/eliminated exposure to malware
• Better performance (no legacy bloat)
• Dual mode (tablet / netbook)

That will certainly change as the Bay Trail style processors improve, but for right now, the Surface 2 value (price/functionality) is superior to the Surface Pro, IMO.

Legacy/x86 support is something that theoretically sounds like a benefit. But in actual practice isn't so great. Those legacy apps are not designed for touch. Using those apps are impractical when using a tablet in "tablet mode" (touch only, no external keyboard/pointer).

I examined the legacy apps that I might consider using if I the tablet supported them, and I concluded that the IDEA of using the apps on a tablet sounded better than it would actually be.

Out of the 4 reasons you listed only 1 of them may be accurate, that of malware. I'm not a security expert so I'll refrain from judging whether that is correct or not. Personally I've had no issues in 20 years of using Windows, but I can't say that statistically it's not a valid issue.

Otherwise those benefits are not unique to RT. An atom tablet will last as long as the surface 2, longer in some cases. Benchmarks also show very similar performance on RT tablets and atom tablets, although it's a bit moot as RT can't really run anything very taxing anyway. Dual mode, I'm a bit confused, do you really not know that atom tablets and even the surface pro's can function as a laptop and a tablet?

Just to clarify I'm mostly comparing the surface 2 to atom tablets, not necessarily the surface Pro as I feel that is a different category, more akin to an ultrabook but better.

Legacy programs very often function just fine in touch mode, I use many of them on a daily basis. I think we veered off the path with the ipad, which made everyone think an "app" should have huge buttons. A perfect app IMO would be just one huge green button saying Go and a huge red button saying Stop. Part of the issue is this mentality that you are going to be able to write your masters thesis on a subway one handed. No, if you need to complete work that requires you to hunker down you are going to need to set your tablet up like a laptop, have a keyboard and mouse and get to work. The last option is a stylus, which I don't believe the surface 2 has the option of, at least not with a digitizer. The stylus works wonderfully for legacy apps. Of course legacy apps are not optimal for touch, no I don't want to exaggerate, but they work just fine in most cases.

Once again I'm not denigrating anyones purchase, just trying to understand the consumer mindset. So far the only reason which might stick IMO is the malware one.

 

[spinedoc77]

This.
If bay trail processors began to outperform the ARM processors, then of course I would considered buying one.
But every review I have seen comparing the Surface 2 and its tegra 4 vs bay trail tablets, bay trail tablets still cant keep up on battery life, performance or quality of the product in general.

And you need to remember that at the moment there is a market for tablets with tablet OS:s. Did you see people jumping ships from Android or Apple, to buy a Windows bay trail tablet?
People who want a tablet is content with tablet OS, and tablets in general are consumption devices. The difference is that Surface 2 actually can replace a laptop, while doing what other tablet do.

By the way, you don't need to worry about making me feel insecure about my purchase, as that wont happen Every time I use the IE11 browser on the Surface 2 I get blow away, its really impressive.

See, this doesn't make sense to me. The things that you run on a RT tablet would in no way slow down a Baytrail tablet. If I'm playing Crysis on my Baytrail tablet, yeah I'd expect it to slow down and have decreased battery life. But if I was just running Office or browsing the web the comparisons I've seen have the battery life about the same, give or take depending on the review.

I don't see people jumping ship to buy a RT tablet over an ipad or android either, to the tune of 900 million lost last time they tried.

I'm not trying to make you feel insecure at all, if you do feel insecure my apologies. IE11 is available on full windows tablets as well, and yes it blows me away how great it is also.

 

[B...]

Well, my decision just became a lot more immediate since my "intermediate" computer just died. My question to Surface 2 users: how is its use on your lap and in other situations where you don't have a hard desk in front of you? Does it still work fine?

Also, has anyone tried remote desktop from Surface and how has that worked with an x86 machine?

 

[sracer]

Well, my decision just became a lot more immediate since my "intermediate" computer just died. My question to Surface 2 users: how is its use on your lap and in other situations where you don't have a hard desk in front of you? Does it still work fine?

Also, has anyone tried remote desktop from Surface and how has that worked with an x86 machine?

The Surface 2 is much easier to use in the lap thank the Surface RT (1st gen) thanks to the 2 position kickstand. (assuming of course you'll be using a keyboard cover)

I highly recommend the TypeCover2 although it is obscenely expensive, IMO.

As for remote desktop. I use TeamViewer daily on my Surface 2 at work to access my iMac that is at home. Performance is limited by the performance of network connection, but surprisingly well. I imagine that remote desktoping into a Windows system would be the same.

 

[cnev3]

Too many people will give you biased answers in order to reassure their own purchases. If the Surface 2 appeals to you, buy it and try it yourself, as the answer to this question is too dependent on individual variables that only apply to you.

The Surface is going the way of the Zune. Microsoft is keeping mum about it's sales figures, and the deep discounts speaks the truth, and really says a lot more than any fluffed up TV advertisement does.

As others have said, it can do a decent job at being a laptop and a tablet, but it does not do a great job at either.

 

[Infinite Jest]

I bought the original surface pro in an attempt to replace my laptop, but it hasn't really worked out. The display is just too small to be used as a laptop and is uncomfortable to use as a tablet. Wound up buying a 14" ultrabook

 

[sracer]

I bought the original surface pro in an attempt to replace my laptop, but it hasn't really worked out. The display is just too small to be used as a laptop and is uncomfortable to use as a tablet. Wound up buying a 14" ultrabook

I always thought that the Pro was the worst of both worlds... especially at that price. I decided to get a Surface 2 and a 14" Lenovo ultrabook-wannabe (S400 Touch) for less than the price of a Surface Pro 2.

The Surface is going the way of the Zune. Microsoft is keeping mum about it's sales figures, and the deep discounts speaks the truth, and really says a lot more than any fluffed up TV advertisement does.

I still use my Zune HD daily. There still is not a better standalone PMP than the Zune, IMO. I've always seen the Surface RT/2 as the "Zune tablet" that many Zune fans had been looking for.

 

[rav16]

I am using the surface 2 since Feb with a touch cover , one of the best product I have used so far .

Surface 2 can be easily replace a laptop in case one is not into legacy apps. The quality of the product is superb . and yes I use it many times on my lap it is perfectly useable .

 

[skaertus]

I am using the surface 2 since Feb with a touch cover , one of the best product I have used so far .



Surface 2 can be easily replace a laptop in case one is not into legacy apps. The quality of the product is superb . and yes I use it many times on my lap it is perfectly useable .

Legacy apps? Do you mean traditional desktop Windows apps that only run on Intel processors? Well, I do not think Windows apps are legacy apps. They do not seem to be, as PCs with Intel processors running Windows are the most popular computers in the world, by a large margin, and are also the best-selling ones. I would not call them legacy apps.

I understand that you may like your Surface, and it looks really nice. However, I think Windows RT is doomed and that its apps will end up becoming the legacy apps when it is discontinued.

I do not know about you guys, but I see Microsoft releasing a Surface 3 with an Atom processor running full Windows instead of an ARM processor running Windows RT. That is to compete with new tablets such as the Dell Venue 11 Pro, which sells for the same price as the Surface and runs full Windows. And I think Microsoft will keep the Surface Pro with more powerful Core processors,

That's just my two cents.

 

[sracer]

I understand that you may like your Surface, and it looks really nice. However, I think Windows RT is doomed and that its apps will end up becoming the legacy apps when it is discontinued.

At the recent //build/ developers conference, Microsoft presented their latest round of cross-platform APIs allowing developers to write-once, run anywhere-Windows.

There have been a dozen such attempts by Microsoft going back to 2000. I don't know if this is simply the latest attempt to fail or if this is the time they'll actually deliver.

If they actually deliver, then I can see Microsoft making a great impact on the mobile space... Windows Phone 8 is highly efficient running extremely well on low-end spec'ed smartphones. Having software compatibility between WP8.1 and Windows RT 8.1 would be quite an attractive proposition for developers and for consumers.

I can definitely see a place for Windows RT in this scenario.

I do not know about you guys, but I see Microsoft releasing a Surface 3 with an Atom processor running full Windows instead of an ARM processor running Windows RT. That is to compete with new tablets such as the Dell Venue 11 Pro, which sells for the same price as the Surface and runs full Windows. And I think Microsoft will keep the Surface Pro with more powerful Core processors,

That's just my two cents.

If Microsoft's talk of cross-platform support is more sizzle than steak, then I agree with you that a Surface 3 could be Atom-based running full Windows. And that might very well be Microsoft's exit strategy.

The thing is, the Surface hardware is premium hardware. All the other Windows tablets look and feel like toys in comparison. I'm greatly impressed with the capabilities/ports/connectivity of the non-Pro Surface hardware. The only thing preventing it from being a runaway hit is the software situation... which is better than it was but far from where it needs to be.

 

[skaertus]

At the recent //build/ developers conference, Microsoft presented their latest round of cross-platform APIs allowing developers to write-once, run anywhere-Windows.

There have been a dozen such attempts by Microsoft going back to 2000. I don't know if this is simply the latest attempt to fail or if this is the time they'll actually deliver.

If they actually deliver, then I can see Microsoft making a great impact on the mobile space... Windows Phone 8 is highly efficient running extremely well on low-end spec'ed smartphones. Having software compatibility between WP8.1 and Windows RT 8.1 would be quite an attractive proposition for developers and for consumers.

I can definitely see a place for Windows RT in this scenario.

I honestly do not know. Microsoft Windows RT is already known as a big failure for Microsoft. The first Surface was a failure, and Microsoft lost tons of money with it. And companies are moving away from RT now. Just take a look at the options available at Amazon.com. Very few tablets with Windows RT are still on sale, and most of them are heavily discounted. Asus Vivo Tab RT is being sold for less than half its original price. Even the Surface 2 is being sold with a heavy discount. That does not help.

Microsoft may push Windows RT, but it will be the only one to do so. I do not see too many incentives for adopting Windows RT.

I do not see why a consumer would pay US$ 500 for a tablet with an ARM processor running Windows RT when it can have, for the same price, a tablet with an Intel Atom processor running full Windows. It will run everything the ARM processor runs, plus the so-called legacy apps. The Windows RT tablets have a chance only if they sell for less than these Atom tablets.

But then, there would hardly be any profits, since the costs of production will not allow it. Companies will give up Windows RT, simply because they do not want to lose money. Take a look at how many companies are giving Windows RT up and choosing to release Atom tablets running full Windows.

And what about developers? There are tons of "legacy" apps written for Windows running on Intel processors. I am not a developer, but I guess translating these apps to some "one-size-fits-all" Windows would require some work. Would developers take the time and the resources necessary to translate these apps so they can run on both Windows and Windows RT? That is not automatic. And several people do really need those "legacy" apps, as they represent the vast majority of apps these days.

You may call me skeptical, but I do not see Windows RT taking off. If Microsoft chooses to put Windows RT in the forthcoming Surface 3, then it may have some (although very few) chances. If Microsoft turns to an Atom processor running Windows, then Windows RT is dead and buried.

If Microsoft's talk of cross-platform support is more sizzle than steak, then I agree with you that a Surface 3 could be Atom-based running full Windows. And that might very well be Microsoft's exit strategy.

The thing is, the Surface hardware is premium hardware. All the other Windows tablets look and feel like toys in comparison. I'm greatly impressed with the capabilities/ports/connectivity of the non-Pro Surface hardware. The only thing preventing it from being a runaway hit is the software situation... which is better than it was but far from where it needs to be.

I guess Microsoft will have to support Windows RT for some time, even if it plans to have it discontinued. The Surface hardware is premium hardware, but I guess Intel could very well deliver processors that match ARM in terms of pricing. Microsoft could still make a premium Surface tablet with an Atom processor and sell it for the same price of the current Surface 2 or for a few bucks more.

If you take a look at all the tablets, you will see that they may look cheaper, but they are also cheaper than the Surface 2. Just look at the specs, apart from the processor:

Surface 2: 32 GB, US$ 449.00; 64 GB, US$ 549.00
HP Omni 10: 32 GB, US$ 399.00; 64 GB, US$ 449.00
Dell Venue 11 Pro: 64 GB, US$ 499.00

These tablets all have a similar screen and are cheaper than Surface 2. For US$ 50 more, these companies could probably deliver a tablet with a more premium feel.

 

[spinedoc77]

At the recent //build/ developers conference, Microsoft presented their latest round of cross-platform APIs allowing developers to write-once, run anywhere-Windows.

There have been a dozen such attempts by Microsoft going back to 2000. I don't know if this is simply the latest attempt to fail or if this is the time they'll actually deliver.

If they actually deliver, then I can see Microsoft making a great impact on the mobile space... Windows Phone 8 is highly efficient running extremely well on low-end spec'ed smartphones. Having software compatibility between WP8.1 and Windows RT 8.1 would be quite an attractive proposition for developers and for consumers.

I can definitely see a place for Windows RT in this scenario.



If Microsoft's talk of cross-platform support is more sizzle than steak, then I agree with you that a Surface 3 could be Atom-based running full Windows. And that might very well be Microsoft's exit strategy.

The thing is, the Surface hardware is premium hardware. All the other Windows tablets look and feel like toys in comparison. I'm greatly impressed with the capabilities/ports/connectivity of the non-Pro Surface hardware. The only thing preventing it from being a runaway hit is the software situation... which is better than it was but far from where it needs to be.

The Thinkpad Tablet 2 has very solid hardware. Granted it's not the nice metal finish of the surface, but it's very solid and very much a quality feeling solid tablet. But I do very much like the surface/surface pro metal casing, it's quite nice and really top of the game.

If MS came out with an Atom powered surface and marketed it correctly they would absolutely destroy the market IMO. This was a continues to be a huge mistake IMO.

 

[B...]

The Thinkpad Tablet 2 has very solid hardware. Granted it's not the nice metal finish of the surface, but it's very solid and very much a quality feeling solid tablet. But I do very much like the surface/surface pro metal casing, it's quite nice and really top of the game.

If MS came out with an Atom powered surface and marketed it correctly they would absolutely destroy the market IMO. This was a continues to be a huge mistake IMO.

I think what MS needs to do is encourage developers to make apps for Windows 8 (not a huge deal, IMO, which sets me apart from most people) and make Office Metro. Really, those are the only problems I can see with the Surface 2. Just checked it out again today, and I was blown away with the quality of the hardware, and if the software was able to match it, it would be an amazing device.

 

[skaertus]

I think what MS needs to do is encourage developers to make apps for Windows 8 (not a huge deal, IMO, which sets me apart from most people) and make Office Metro. Really, those are the only problems I can see with the Surface 2. Just checked it out again today, and I was blown away with the quality of the hardware, and if the software was able to match it, it would be an amazing device.

The thing is, software is key. Hardware alone can do nothing. Surface 2 is really great, but it cannot run Windows apps apart from a version of Office. Google Chromebook Pixel is also great hardware, but it runs Chrome OS...

I wish Microsoft put a next-generation Intel Atom inside the Surface. It would be really great to have such a small and light tablet running full Windows. I will not buy a Surface 2 tablet betting that Windows RT is going to take off, because it is a long shot. But I would buy a Surface tablet running full Windows.

 

[maflynn]

I think what MS needs to do is encourage developers to make apps for Windows 8 (not a huge deal, IMO, which sets me apart from most people) and make Office Metro. Really, those are the only problems I can see with the Surface 2. Just checked it out again today, and I was blown away with the quality of the hardware, and if the software was able to match it, it would be an amazing device.

I wouldn't be surprised to see MS drop the whole windows RT thing. The Surface 2 tablet (not the surface pro 2) is a hamstrung product that lacks performance, apps and price. While cheaper then the Surface Pro 2, its not a good value.

The windows app store is growing, though I don't know if that includes apps that are compatible to windows rt. If I were to get a surface tablet, it would be the Pro flavor and it would be to mostly replace my laptop, or at least supplement it. To that end, I'd want the ability to run regular windows apps

 

[sracer]

I wouldn't be surprised to see MS drop the whole windows RT thing. The Surface 2 tablet (not the surface pro 2) is a hamstrung product that lacks performance, apps and price. While cheaper then the Surface Pro 2, its not a good value.

You might be thinking of the Surface RT (1st gen). That was indeed sluggish. Performance-wise, the Surface 2 is quite speedy. There are many comparison videos on YouTube showing the performance of the Surface 2 compared to tablets running full Windows. Price-wise, it is cheaper than the iPad Air and offers greater flexibility in its hardware. Dual display support, full USB 3.0, microHDMI, microSD, full wireless printer support, extended bluetooth and usb device support, etc.

Apps however continue to be the weakest point.

The windows app store is growing, though I don't know if that includes apps that are compatible to windows rt. If I were to get a surface tablet, it would be the Pro flavor and it would be to mostly replace my laptop, or at least supplement it. To that end, I'd want the ability to run regular windows apps

Yes, the current Windows App Store contains apps that run on the Surface RT/2. The recent //build/ conference promised to make things easier for developers to create apps that will run on all Windows platforms. If Microsoft actually follows through on that then there will be growth in the number of substantive apps available for Windows RT.

I'm wrestling with my ownership of a Surface 2, but have absolutely no interest in the Pro 2.

 

[maflynn]

You might be thinking of the Surface RT (1st gen). That was indeed sluggish

Perhaps, I was under the impression that windows wilted under the atom processor and you'd be better suited with the pro version.

Still, for my needs, if I can find an inexpensive Pro version I may jump on it. I do need the standard desktop apps and so that means pro.

 

[sracer]

Perhaps, I was under the impression that windows wilted under the atom processor and you'd be better suited with the pro version.

Still, for my needs, if I can find an inexpensive Pro version I may jump on it. I do need the standard desktop apps and so that means pro.

If the Surface 2 wilts due to lack of apps, I'll look at the Bay Trail Windows tabs running full Windows. There is no way in 2014 that I'll buy a tablet (Surface Pro) with a fan. No way. But that's me.

 

[spinedoc77]

I think what MS needs to do is encourage developers to make apps for Windows 8 (not a huge deal, IMO, which sets me apart from most people) and make Office Metro. Really, those are the only problems I can see with the Surface 2. Just checked it out again today, and I was blown away with the quality of the hardware, and if the software was able to match it, it would be an amazing device.

Yep, agreed 100%. They are in fact making a Metro Office version, I think they just recently had some PR about it. There is already a Metro version of OneNote which is quite nice. They are also pushing hard with developers, they unified the development platform so you can program once for multiple devices like windows phone, RT, etc.

MS is really making some great moves these days, which is why I'm confused at their adherence to RT.

----------

Perhaps, I was under the impression that windows wilted under the atom processor and you'd be better suited with the pro version.

Still, for my needs, if I can find an inexpensive Pro version I may jump on it. I do need the standard desktop apps and so that means pro.

From the reviews and benchmarks I've seen the Surface 2 is quite speedy. But it's kind of a moot point, what software is available for RT that would tax it anyhow? That's why even a comparison between RT and Atom doesn't make sense, you can't run Photoshop or CAD on a RT unit for example. Most benchmarks I've seen put them pretty close in apps that they can both run.

The Surface Pro 2 is also very nice, but IMO it's just not there yet. It's an imperfect tablet and a crappy laptop, but if it's specialized uses fits someones needs then it works, but otherwise I see it as being shoehorned. You would get more battery life out of either an Atom tablet if you needed tablet use, or an ultrabook if you needed a laptop for example.

I have high hopes for the Surface Pro 3 and am on the sidelines until then. I don't think MS is stupid, but not producing an Atom tablet is stupid IMO. For that reason I think MS will really shave the weight/thickness of the SP3 while adding battery life in the realization that it's just too imperfect as it stands today. But they will still be missing such a huge piece of the market, hamstringing themselves as a devices and services company IMO.

 

[sracer]

Yep, agreed 100%. They are in fact making a Metro Office version, I think they just recently had some PR about it. There is already a Metro version of OneNote which is quite nice. They are also pushing hard with developers, they unified the development platform so you can program once for multiple devices like windows phone, RT, etc.

MS is really making some great moves these days, which is why I'm confused at their adherence to RT.

The unified development platform makes the RT make MORE sense. If there is no additional development required for the difference in platform why NOT offer a device that is optimized for mobile use?

I believe that the issue will be that: their latest attempt at unification will fall short. This is about the 4th attempt in 12 years to do that. Each one has fallen short and not delivered what they promised was possible.

The lack of mention of Windows RT at the latest //build/ conference leads me to believe that Microsoft will (or has already) cease Windows RT development.

In the end, I think that Microsoft continues to send a mixed-message of its intentions.

 

[spinedoc77]

The unified development platform makes the RT make MORE sense. If there is no additional development required for the difference in platform why NOT offer a device that is optimized for mobile use?

I believe that the issue will be that: their latest attempt at unification will fall short. This is about the 4th attempt in 12 years to do that. Each one has fallen short and not delivered what they promised was possible.

The lack of mention of Windows RT at the latest //build/ conference leads me to believe that Microsoft will (or has already) cease Windows RT development.

In the end, I think that Microsoft continues to send a mixed-message of its intentions.

It still makes LESS sense to me any way you slice it. There is a very basic question here, why would you give up the desktop with its thousands if not millions of legacy programs, desktop functionality, etc etc? There is no answer to that, nothing convincing that I've heard yet so far. I understand they have to unify, but at the same time the desktop isn't going anywhere. These tablets are powerful enough to connect to an external monitor/keyboard/mouse and use AS a desktop, but if you do that with RT you are stuck with that. Here is where I get confused, a full windows tablet IS optimized for mobility just as much as a RT tablet. There is no compromise, it has full Metro and can run every single thing RT can, but that lack of compromise is not true going the other way.

You are 100% right though, MS has a mixed message. It seems to be a symptom of their management style and lack of communication between teams leading to a lack of a coherent vision and poor understanding of the market. This is why Apple can dominate so much with such a weak offering like the ipad, and why MS cannot afford to offer an equally weak, if not much weaker offering.