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Can we expect next Apple TV (next gen) this year?
- Thread starter KensaiMage
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Although I have a 4K ATV I would love to see s new unit with always-listening Siri so that you don’t have to fetch the remote and hold down a button to say a command.
Other than that, content is king and I can’t think of any hardware upgrades that Apple can do at this stage.
Other than that, content is king and I can’t think of any hardware upgrades that Apple can do at this stage.
I suppose what you really need to know is what the hardware is capable of in the existing unit. HDMI 2.0a limits are known, the aforementioned 2.1 will provide scope for expansion but.....
Seems this box follows the industry with a lag so watch and see what the industry does provide (live and streaming). Films still low frame rate but live going higher.
No industry expert but minor upgrades to existing, not next gen?
HLG is on the horizon looking to be a biggy and not sure that will be classed as a major upgrade as non HLG sets should work with it, it should just pass through on iPlayer etc? Can the Apple TV integrate this seamlessly or will it a hardware upgrade. DVB-DASH indicates that a non HLG set can take a HLG feed and just get SDR out the mix. But Apple does things differently....
Games never seem to have been a mac thing whilst running around with a hungry shark can kill a minute or three it is not Fallout.
But who knows, stranger things have happened at sea and I have never been good with lottery numbers.
Seems this box follows the industry with a lag so watch and see what the industry does provide (live and streaming). Films still low frame rate but live going higher.
No industry expert but minor upgrades to existing, not next gen?
HLG is on the horizon looking to be a biggy and not sure that will be classed as a major upgrade as non HLG sets should work with it, it should just pass through on iPlayer etc? Can the Apple TV integrate this seamlessly or will it a hardware upgrade. DVB-DASH indicates that a non HLG set can take a HLG feed and just get SDR out the mix. But Apple does things differently....
Games never seem to have been a mac thing whilst running around with a hungry shark can kill a minute or three it is not Fallout.
But who knows, stranger things have happened at sea and I have never been good with lottery numbers.
Hyper Log Gamma is for live broadcasts. Is the Apple TV doing live feeds now? I thought it was just catch up.
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I wonder if apple will wait a cycle or two for the chips to reach their standard. First gen HDMI 2.1 could be one of those out of date quick chips. You know how some of this works so they (chip makers) can get repeat business and electronics manufactures can get repeat business touting this years new model has more to it. Apple doesn't appear to like releasing or need to release a new Apple TV every year.
It sounds weird but tvOS 11 does HLG, with conversion to HDR10 it seems.
tvOS 12 betas do not, so far.
Here’s what I did to try it out:
I used youtube-dl to download HDR video in webm container and VP9.2 codec.
I then converted it to MP4 container using ffmpeg, preserving HLG EOTF and HDR metadata.
And yes, it works on tvOS11. Output is in HDR10 as far as I can tell, but tvOS did not complain about HLG input.
PS Apple keynotes are live broadcasts, so yes, they do
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It sounds weird but tvOS 11 does HLG, with conversion to HDR10 it seems.
tvOS 12 betas do not, so far.
PS Apple keynotes are live broadcasts, so yes, they do
Seems from a little digging its not just live broadcasts that use it though it was invented for that. Some reading for this interested
https://www.whathifi.com/advice/hybrid-log-gamma-new-4k-hdr-tv-broadcast-format-explained
BBC iPlayer was testing HLG from the world cup. But Apple (BBC iPlayer App) was not in the trial. Apart from TV apps (there was quite a list), they had Virgin box on the trial? I cannot see the Beeb re formatting though when the initial capture is HLG?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/high-dynamic-range
Also, although there exists the technology for aerial UHD, I expect that BBC and others will favour live streaming, Amazon have some Premier League TV rights in the UK and wonder what they would do through their App?
Edit. Did I read somewhere that Australia is trialling aerial 4k? (not to be confused with satellite)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/high-dynamic-range
Also, although there exists the technology for aerial UHD, I expect that BBC and others will favour live streaming, Amazon have some Premier League TV rights in the UK and wonder what they would do through their App?
Edit. Did I read somewhere that Australia is trialling aerial 4k? (not to be confused with satellite)
Yes, it is also the out-of-camera HDR format on recent consumer video cameras, that is consumable right away, without any need for post-processing. It is essentially a log gamma used widely in video cameras, with particular shape.Seems from a little digging its not just live broadcasts that use it though it was invented for that. Some reading for this interested
https://www.whathifi.com/advice/hybrid-log-gamma-new-4k-hdr-tv-broadcast-format-explained
Apart from that benefit, imho it is inferior to PQ in every other respect, so I wouldn’t call it a biggie.
It serves a purpose in real-time production at the expense of quality.
But heh, technically inferior VHS also dominated over Beta
These papers explain some deficiencies:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/color-volume-limitations-with-hlg.pdf
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/image-level-shifts-with-hlg.pdf
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But heh, VHS also dominated over Beta
Was cheaper to film porn on vhs than Betamax. Filth won the fight. I wonder if the same is true today?
If we are talking about HDR, then i think the loser can be Dolby Vision.
If HDR10+ ends up providing same or at least close quality, will be royalty free and public domain, then why pay for a license?
Sadly, Dolby Labs seems to have put major R&D effort behind PQ. Hope they cover most of their R&D costs on pro market anyway.
Yea I see it the same. Panasonic doesn’t like Dolby vision as they say they can’t control the picture quality. They prefer hdr10. Though doesn’t matter much to US customers as Panasonic won’t release their new oleds in the states which is a shame as the mastering studios are (all?) using them and by all accounts from reviewers they are amazing colour wise etc with only Sony beating them for motion.
Not that Dolby having an iron in the format wars will have any bearing on their stance.....$$$$
re beta etc. It went on to dominate the pro format for years. Or rather at least a distant version of what the consumer was. VHS was rubbish at a TV signal but there we are.
re beta etc. It went on to dominate the pro format for years. Or rather at least a distant version of what the consumer was. VHS was rubbish at a TV signal but there we are.
It’s doesn’t make sense when most consumers only upgrade their TVs every 5-10 years. Probably less 10% of all Apple TV customers have a HDR enabled TV AND Dolby Atmos capable sound system.
Affordable 4K TVs were available in 2015 but only three years later did Apple release a 4K ATV.
HMDI 2.1 has little relevance or use for the average consumer or even the majority of enthusiast. Yes you can find snowboarding and surfing videos or reels in 8k on Vimeo but that’s about it.
HDMI 2.1 is about way more than 8K
HDMI 2.0 can’t even show HDR at 4K and so compresses it.
There are other things too but 8K is built into the spec of 2.1 and we’ll 8K isn’t even needed, it’s being pushed by Samsung who have lost the war against OLED and so need something OLED can’t show ie higher nits which is why they are pushing 8K hdr cause they know OLED can’t ever reach those kind of nits.
It’s a sorry state of affairs really all being pushed cause of cash.
nit war is a matter of personal perspective. Looks good to the average punter and on a sales pitch at the shop. Personally never sold me on OLED vs other types.
Another thing to consider is if Apple really get into production and try to take on Amazon and Netflix. What they see as useful to what to produce and then push out could be a pointer to what is in the next gen box.
However if the 4k and HDR options are there now, a good few years to get some money back before betting on new design and development outlay. What Apple seems to be good at the moment is making money on not much there. As I see it anyway.
Another thing to consider is if Apple really get into production and try to take on Amazon and Netflix. What they see as useful to what to produce and then push out could be a pointer to what is in the next gen box.
However if the 4k and HDR options are there now, a good few years to get some money back before betting on new design and development outlay. What Apple seems to be good at the moment is making money on not much there. As I see it anyway.
Uncompressed is better, like for example just scan is better for 1:1 pixel mapping, that sort of thing. Also with HDMI 2.1 manufacturers can stop trying to fudge things (which they are doing at the moment) by using the ethernet return channel.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OP: my best guess is NO, not this year... or next.
Apple seems to drag in about last on major (hardware needed) upgrades to
TV: about last to go 1080p... about last with 4K. I doubt HDMI 2.1 will push a hardware upgrade unless iTunes store revenues flip into requiring such a connection (and thus tangible money-making for Apple is at stake).
Samsung will be pushing 8K very hard soon but I'm sure the usual players will all beat down 8K much as they beat down 4K before Apple went there... and 1080p before Apple went there (recycling the same old, very tired arguments against advancing this bit of technology because whatever Apple is selling in the present is always "good enough" for "99% of people everywhere." Somehow, we won't apply the same "good enough" logic(?) to phones, tablets or Macs- just TV).
Of course, once Apple goes 8K, all that anti-8K sentiment will become like crickets... just as the anti-4K sentiment did before it... and the anti-1080p sentiment did before it. We seem to only rally against technological advancement (oddly) in this ONE product while Apple chooses not to advance. Once Apple takes the step, it's as if we never felt that way... certainly Apple is not dumb for embracing something we may have been railing against as recently as just weeks before. Funny how that works (every single time).
The ONE hope for a near-term update toTV hardware would be Apple finding itself in a place where it runs out of and/or does not want to make the A10X chip anymore.
Based on all of the above, my own best guess timing of the next hardware update is about 2020-23... but I'm certainly no Ming-Chi. And I'm first in line to buy as little as only a faster iteration (A12X anyone?) of the 4K model as soon as Apple would roll one out.
Apple seems to drag in about last on major (hardware needed) upgrades to
TV: about last to go 1080p... about last with 4K. I doubt HDMI 2.1 will push a hardware upgrade unless iTunes store revenues flip into requiring such a connection (and thus tangible money-making for Apple is at stake).Samsung will be pushing 8K very hard soon but I'm sure the usual players will all beat down 8K much as they beat down 4K before Apple went there... and 1080p before Apple went there (recycling the same old, very tired arguments against advancing this bit of technology because whatever Apple is selling in the present is always "good enough" for "99% of people everywhere."
Somehow, we won't apply the same "good enough" logic(?) to phones, tablets or Macs- just TV).Of course, once Apple goes 8K, all that anti-8K sentiment will become like crickets... just as the anti-4K sentiment did before it... and the anti-1080p sentiment did before it. We seem to only rally against technological advancement (oddly) in this ONE product while Apple chooses not to advance. Once Apple takes the step, it's as if we never felt that way... certainly Apple is not dumb for embracing something we may have been railing against as recently as just weeks before. Funny how that works (every single time).
The ONE hope for a near-term update to
TV hardware would be Apple finding itself in a place where it runs out of and/or does not want to make the A10X chip anymore.Based on all of the above, my own best guess timing of the next hardware update is about 2020-23... but I'm certainly no Ming-Chi. And I'm first in line to buy as little as only a faster iteration (A12X anyone?) of the 4K model as soon as Apple would roll one out.
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Hmmmm not sure now Mr Hobe! Apple have gone from a very edgy company to a rather mainstream appealing the the masses now - TV content interests in 2018? Come on! This means Apple TV is of a top priority to them and we'll see updates regularly now. AV1 is decided on, DV,HDR is sorted, Atmos is here. I guess these were the reasons why Apple were late with 4K as h264 was still being used and no HDR confidence was in place in 2015/16. I can imagine that Apple tested h264 with 4K streaming at the time and were not satisfied with the results - not sure what speed of internet would be required for a reliable h264 4K stream.OP: my best guess is NO, not this year... or next.
Apple seems to drag in about last on major (hardware needed) upgrades to
Samsung will be pushing 8K very hard soon but I'm sure the usual players will all beat down 8K much as they beat down 4K before Apple went there... and 1080p before Apple went there (recycling the same old, very tired arguments against advancing this bit of technology because whatever Apple is selling in the present is always "good enough" for "99% of people everywhere"
Of course, once Apple goes 8K, all that anti-8K sentiment will become like crickets... just as the anti-4K sentiment did before it... and the anti-1080p sentiment did before it. We seem to only rally against technological advancement (oddly) in this ONE product while Apple chooses not to advance. Once Apple takes the step, it's as if we never felt that way... certainly Apple is not dumb for embracing something we may have been railing against as recently as just weeks before. Funny how that works (every single time).
The ONE hope for an update to
Based on all of the above, my own best guess timing of the next hardware update is about 2020-23... but I'm certainly no Ming-Chi. And I'm first in line to buy as little as only a faster iteration (A12X anyone?) of the 4K model as soon as Apple would roll one out.
Gotta say though, apart from one friend and myself, I don't know anyone else with Apple TV or who buys film from iTunes. Out of all the people that I know, i'm the only person who purchases from that site and only when the price is right!
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
H.265 was "decided on" long ago (too). There was no reason to wait on a 4K TV because H.264 was "still being used." It was (and is) still being used because Apple chose to keep using it. Apple had h.265 in FaceTime on phones several years before adopting H.265 for TV. Just choices... much like leaving Mac Mini hardware many years old and iPad Mini still on version 4. Neither of those have to wait on anything either. Apple just chooses to NOT upgrade them in a timely manner.
But that's neither here nor there. The OPs question is when do we expect Apple to roll out a nextTV. That's my best guess. I certainly could be wrong about it. Maybe Apple will roll out a "6" tomorrow? The only bona-fide answer to OPs question is "Only Apple knows."
TV because H.264 was "still being used." It was (and is) still being used because Apple chose to keep using it. Apple had h.265 in FaceTime on phones several years before adopting H.265 for TV. Just choices... much like leaving Mac Mini hardware many years old and iPad Mini still on version 4. Neither of those have to wait on anything either. Apple just chooses to NOT upgrade them in a timely manner.But that's neither here nor there. The OPs question is when do we expect Apple to roll out a next
TV. That's my best guess. I certainly could be wrong about it. Maybe Apple will roll out a "6" tomorrow? The only bona-fide answer to OPs question is "Only Apple knows."