Can we talk about film?

[Lord Blackadder]

KEH is generally well regarded. I think they are better for buying from vs selling to (I think they tend to lowball stuff people send in, even taking into account their need for a profit), so you should be okay. I have not personally purchased from them, but I do think I sold to them (ironically a film camera that I wish I still had) nearly 20 years ago.

I respect Lady Blackadder's dedication to her favorite camera, but if she would consider a Canon AE-1, my own personal favorite store and camera repair shop has two currently listed. These would have been CLAed and have a warranty with them and the store owner is great. But I'm also primarily a Nikon user, so I can't fault her for wanting a direct replacement. 🙂

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Thanks for the tip and link! Ironically, I have an AE-1 someone gave me (non-program though) that I never use. The battery door is cracked but otherwise it's in good condition and I believe it works fine. And I have plenty of FD lenses.

I offered her that one, BUT she really likes the ergonomics of the FM and prefers its simple meter. I would like to get a replacement that has been at least inspected, and preferably cleaned - I think it's certainly worth the extra cost. So I might wait and shop more to find an FM for sale at a camera store like the one you linked.

 

[dwig]

Disaster strikes - the advance lever on my Nikon FM moves around freely but won't advance the film. I can advance it by turning the motor drive connection on the bottom of the camera. I can't find any example of someone disassembling this part of the camera on YouTube, but based on the exploded diagrams for the FM I suspect one of the cogs on the advance lever shaft has broken. Most FMs seem to have issues with the advance mechanism jamming, but this is the opposite problem.

I started taking the thing apart but quickly decided I didn't have the time to invest on this sort of thing - I want to shoot film, not become an amateur camera repair technician (I tinker with vintage Mac repair and that's already taking up plenty of time!). And the advance shaft is a really buried part...I'd have to disassemble a bunch of linkage pieces under the bottom plate, remove the shaft, and then try to find a replacement. Assuming that's truly what is broken.

I primarily shoot a Canon F1 and EOS-1n, but this is Lady Blackadder's favorite camera, so I find myself shopping for a replacement on KEH. Anyone ever bought a camera body on there? it seems less of a gamble than going to eBay...

If it's not a case of the rewind buttom being stuck in its depressed state then it is not likely be be something a tinker can fix.

When looking for a replacement I would recommend an FM2 over an FM. If you go with the older FM then try to get one of the second generation models. They're easily distinguished by having the shutter release lock incorporated into the wind lever rather than being a collar around the shutter release.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

If it's not a case of the rewind buttom being stuck in its depressed state then it is not likely be be something a tinker can fix.

Yes, I think the issue is buried deep within the advance shaft assembly. Above my skill level.

When looking for a replacement I would recommend an FM2 over an FM. If you go with the older FM then try to get one of the second generation models. They're easily distinguished by having the shutter release lock incorporated into the wind lever rather than being a collar around the shutter release.

I'm shopping around, but I think I may just stick with the FM - it worked well and while there are a lot of 'better' cameras out there (and I now own a few), this one worked fine and I don't know that the premium for the FM2 brings anything we need but don't have in the FM.

 

[dwig]

Yes, I think the issue is buried deep within the advance shaft assembly. Above my skill level.



I'm shopping around, but I think I may just stick with the FM - it worked well and while there are a lot of 'better' cameras out there (and I now own a few), this one worked fine and I don't know that the premium for the FM2 brings anything we need but don't have in the FM.

The FM2 is not all that much "better" than the FM. It has a brighter focusing screen and a higher X-sync speed. But other than that there's not much that the very solid FM doesn't have. At this point in time the fact that all FM2s are younger than all FMs doesn't count for anything significant. I'd avoid any FM with the early style knurled rewind knob. Those are ancient and the knurling wreaks havoc when used with a winder and a neckstrap.

 

[bunnspecial]

To be honest, as someone who has both cameras, I don't think I'd spend the extra expense NOW for the significant premium an FM2/FM2n is bringing over the FM.

If you really need the faster flash sync speed or faster shutter speeds, there are more economical choices around, including the equally excellent FE2 or moving to something more modern.

Neither the FM or FM2 is exactly known to be unreliable, but there's an argument to be made(and one I've heard stated by camera repair techs) that the lower tension springs in the FM shutter put a lot less stress on it and over the long haul it tends to hold up better. Nikon had some teething pains early on with the 1/4000 Copal-type shutter, especially with the "honeycomb" titanium used. Anecdotally, the honeycomb shutters were problematic enough that Nikon would often replace them if a camera came in for service, whether or not the shutter was working fine. Again, anecdotally, I've had mixed luck(at best) with the FA, to the point that I pretty much won't use them for anything where I actually want all the shots I've taken, but so far my "reliable" FA has a smooth-blade shutter, and my "problem child"(that randomly gives blank frames) has a honeycomb shutter.

Long and short, I've considered selling the last FM2n I have. Even though mine has been rock solid, I don't see any real benefit to it for me other than some small ergonomic enhancements.

And, when talking about any of these cameras, they're all old enough(at this point even the FM3a too, which is approaching 20 years old for the newest) that a recent service by a reputable tech means MUCH more than the age of the camera.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

To be honest, as someone who has both cameras, I don't think I'd spend the extra expense NOW for the significant premium an FM2/FM2n is bringing over the FM.

If you really need the faster flash sync speed or faster shutter speeds, there are more economical choices around, including the equally excellent FE2 or moving to something more modern.

Yes, I primarily shoot with a Canon F1 and EOS-1n, and those have all the extra features and performance I will ever use (and then some). So I don't need a 'better' camera to replace this FM. Just another one that works!

And, when talking about any of these cameras, they're all old enough(at this point even the FM3a too, which is approaching 20 years old for the newest) that a recent service by a reputable tech means MUCH more than the age of the camera.

Indeed - as with any 'vintage' gear of any kind, if you want to actually use it condition and service history really matters more than anything. A rare/fancy camera that's broken is just a paperweight.

 

[bunnspecial]

Yes, I primarily shoot with a Canon F1 and EOS-1n, and those have all the extra features and performance I will ever use (and then some). So I don't need a 'better' camera to replace this FM. Just another one that works!

There's no direct Canon analogue to the FM2n. The FM's closest equivalent is the FTb, but the FM is objectively a better or at least more up-to-date camera with the Copal Square type shutter(vs. the FTb's horizontal cloth) and the 3-LED readout. The only thing the FTb really does "better" is offer full time mirror lock up. In fact the FTb is probably closer to a Nikkormat series camera-an argument could be made it's more like an FT3 since that was the only Nikkormat with auto-indexing(which the FD mount had from the beginning), but it's also more like the FTn in that it needs a mercury cell to meter properly, and all the Nikkormat cameras had Copal shutters and faster flash sync than the FTb.

Granted the comparisons don't really do or mean anything in 2025-I say it more just as an historical mention. Canon basically "undercut" Nikon with the thoroughly consumer grade A-series cameras, and Nikon answered with the EM/FG/FG20. Probably the only other comparison to be drawn there is the Nikon EL2 and Canon EF, which are similar cameras in a lot of ways, but the EF never sold in big numbers and you're really lucky to find one that actually works now.

So, again, I'll just mention in all that rambling that if one wants an FM, to me another FM is the only realistic replacement. The FE deserves a mention, but has somse drawbacks compared to the FM and I found the electronics a bit less reliable. The FE2 is rock solid, but also a battery hog. The FM3a may be the best of the bunch, but it's actually the only Nikon film SLR I've never owned as I've not wanted to pay the $600+ they've been bringing for as long as I've been paying attention to them.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

There's no direct Canon analogue to the FM2n. The FM's closest equivalent is the FTb, but the FM is objectively a better or at least more up-to-date camera with the Copal Square type shutter(vs. the FTb's horizontal cloth) and the 3-LED readout. The only thing the FTb really does "better" is offer full time mirror lock up. In fact the FTb is probably closer to a Nikkormat series camera-an argument could be made it's more like an FT3 since that was the only Nikkormat with auto-indexing(which the FD mount had from the beginning), but it's also more like the FTn in that it needs a mercury cell to meter properly, and all the Nikkormat cameras had Copal shutters and faster flash sync than the FTb.

Interesting! As it happens, someone gave me an FTb in its original box a few years ago. It looks like a nice, clean design. It appears to be in only lightly used condition, and the shutter cocks and fires, but I haven't actually tried using it - it doesn't improve on the F-1 for what I do. I never thought of it as an FM equivalent, but I lack your thorough experience with these things.

Probably the only other comparison to be drawn there is the Nikon EL2 and Canon EF, which are similar cameras in a lot of ways, but the EF never sold in big numbers and you're really lucky to find one that actually works now.

Not to mention that the EF's name, overlapping as it does with the lens system, means that finding one via search on a marketplace is going to be nearly impossible!

So, again, I'll just mention in all that rambling that if one wants an FM, to me another FM is the only realistic replacement. The FE deserves a mention, but has somse drawbacks compared to the FM and I found the electronics a bit less reliable. The FE2 is rock solid, but also a battery hog. The FM3a may be the best of the bunch, but it's actually the only Nikon film SLR I've never owned as I've not wanted to pay the $600+ they've been bringing for as long as I've been paying attention to them.

That makes sense to me. Rarer or marginally 'better' or niche models with prices inflated by the collector market are not what I am going for.

There are so many vintage film cameras out there it is bewildering. Granted most of them are very similar in their basic functions, but I'm trying to stick with becoming very familiar with just a few so I can focus on doing better photography - and just getting out there and shooting.

 

[dwig]

Interesting! As it happens, someone gave me an FTb in its original box a few years ago. It looks like a nice, clean design. ... I never thought of it as an FM equivalent, but I lack your thorough experience with these things.

The FT, FTb, and FTb/n were marketed as competition to Nikon's Nikkormat FT, FT2, and FT3 models. Canon didn't continue the line into the "as small as the OM-1" design era while Nikon did to a degree with the FM/FE family. Canon went the "plastic wonder" route with the A-series, starting with the AE-1.

As camera models got smaller, I always found that the designs forces on the Copal Square derived shutters, as opposed to the Leica style horizontal curtain shutters, left a camera configuration with better handling. The rewind side could get very short and the wind side remained large enough to hold comfortably since all of the shutter mechinism, other than the blades, resides on the wind side. The horizontal curtain shutters need to have some significant space on the rewind side for the curtain's supply spindles. This made the wind side too short for easy handling when the designers went for a small overall size.

 

[bunnspecial]

As camera models got smaller, I always found that the designs forces on the Copal Square derived shutters, as opposed to the Leica style horizontal curtain shutters, left a camera configuration with better handling. The rewind side could get very short and the wind side remained large enough to hold comfortably since all of the shutter mechinism, other than the blades, resides on the wind side. The horizontal curtain shutters need to have some significant space on the rewind side for the curtain's supply spindles. This made the wind side too short for easy handling when the designers went for a small overall size.

As just a bit of a comment on that too, when I was shooting Canons, I found that 36 really meant 36. I never managed to get the "bonus" 37th frame I've heard others talk about. This was mostly in the mid-2000s that I was using them, just for reference, and most of my 36 frame rolls were Tri-X, Plus-X, E100G/GX, Elite Chrome 100, Portra 400UC, and the original Velvia. This was true on the A series cameras and the F-1s, but even the T cameras with Copal-type shutters. Of course the T90 may have been capable of shooting the 37th, but as I recall(it's been years since I used mine) it would normally auto-rewind at 36 frames.

When I switched to Nikons, admittedly a decade later, I found that 37 frames was pretty much a given. On Copal shutter cameras like the FM/FM2 I'd even get a lucky 38th frame sometimes. Of course film stocks weren't all the same-I was using some Velvia 50, Velvia 100, Provia 100F(which I'd previously only shot in medium format), Portra 160/400, Ektar 100 and then E100 when it came back on the market, but also of course Tri-X. Just to make sure I wasn't going nuts, I tried some of my old frozen film stock including the same bricks of Elite Chrome I use to shoot out of all the time, and sure enough I was getting 37/38 from them.

I sat down and compared film gates, and found that on all the Nikon models I looked at, even the F and F2, the film gate was just a touch closer to the film cartridge than on similar Canon models. The difference was even more stark on the FM and others around that same basic body(FE, FM2, FE2, FA). It made sense why I never could get that 37th frame on Canons, even though it looked like I had enough space for it at the end of the roll when I'd develop, and had no trouble on Nikons...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

As just a bit of a comment on that too, when I was shooting Canons, I found that 36 really meant 36. I never managed to get the "bonus" 37th frame I've heard others talk about. This was mostly in the mid-2000s that I was using them, just for reference, and most of my 36 frame rolls were Tri-X, Plus-X, E100G/GX, Elite Chrome 100, Portra 400UC, and the original Velvia. This was true on the A series cameras and the F-1s, but even the T cameras with Copal-type shutters. Of course the T90 may have been capable of shooting the 37th, but as I recall(it's been years since I used mine) it would normally auto-rewind at 36 frames.

I have shot a fraction as much as you, but just to chime in, looking at my film development spreadsheet: I've managed a 37th frame with the FM 15% of the time, and a 37th frame 21% of the time with the Canon F-1. All with a variety of film stocks (Kentmere 400, HP5+, TX 400, Fuji Color 200, Kodak Ultramax). The EOS-1n always rewinds after 36.

I have a Zeiss IKON Contessa LKE I picked up at an estate sale, with the selenium meter still functioning. Fun little mid-mod camera, and with it I once got 39 good frames on a roll of Kentmere 400. But that was probably luck. On the same outing I accidentally opened the back of the FM and ruined a third of roll. The photo gods giveth, and the photo gods taketh away,....