Carbon Copy Cloner and Time Machine

Discussion in 'Mac Basics and Help' started by cfs, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. cfs macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #1
    Hello Forum,

    I am about to put to use my new WD My Book Studio Edition 750GB External HD connected by firewire 800.

    My plan is to make 3 partitions for it:

    One partition for Time Machine (TM).

    One partition for Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC).

    One partition for DVD's I own that I ripped and want to transfer elsewhere.

    My question is if TM and CCC will work at the same time? If not can I just make backups with CCC once in a blue moon and use TM regularly?
    I am not a professional user so I don't need constant backup but TM seems really handy.

    In addition, if I don't want TM to be used every hour, can I just shut it off after the first hour each day or will that mess up TM?

    Thanks,
    CFS
     
  2. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

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    New Jersey, USA
    #2
    No problem doing the partitioning. Just assign one of them to Time Machine Preferences.

    I don't suggest doing both TM backups and CC Clone backups at the same time since you are writing to the same physical disk.

    You can turn TM off with no problem and just do Manual TM backups.

    I do a similar setup as what you want to do. I use a small portable disk to do CC clones about every other week and TM backups to a large external disk manually. Just use the "Backup Now" feature by right (control) clicking on the TM dock icon or just clicking the TM icon in the Menu bar (if you have it enabled) and selecting it there. I usually do TM backups once per day.



    One thing I forgot...
    If you are using an Intel Mac, MAKE SURE when you do your partitioning, that you select (options) the GUID Partition Table scheme. Otherwise, TM will not recognize the partition and you will not be able to boot from the CC Clone partition.
     
  3. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #3
    Thanks for your detailed and clear descriptions.

    I would also put CCC on another external but I will be out of computer cash for a little bit. In the meantime, I will just do as you said Io could, partition and run one at a time.

    I was wondering one more thing, if I have two partitions, one for TM and the other for CCC, can I put other files that are not from my computer in the CCC partition? Or does CCC need to be alone?

    Thanks,
    CFS
     
  4. eman macrumors 6502a

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    In the great white north
    #4
    If you backup up your HD with CCC, I would only have those files there. You only need to have the CCC partition as big as the used space on your HD. Example: if you have a 320Gb HD in your mac, but only have 30GB of used space, you only really need to have your backup partition as big as your used space which is 30GB. The backup CCC partition doesn't need to be the exact same size as your mac HD.
     
  5. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #5
    Thanks for the insight. However, if I partition CCC on one side and TM on the other, wouldn't I need CCC to be larger than the space being used considering i would plan on adding in the future?

    For example, if I have an external HD partitioned with CCC on one side with 50gb in the partition and one day went over, wopuldn't I have to repartition in disk utilities at a later date? And if I did so, wouldn't my whole external HD get wiped out in the process?

    -cfs
     
  6. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

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    #6
    First, how big (physically) is your internal disk?

    When I use CCC to clone my internal disk, I make the external disk partition the same size so to avoid growth problems. Same thing for TM backups, at least twice the size. Any remaining space could be used for a third partition.

    If your internal disk is large (ie; 160GB, 200GB, etc) I would consider another external drive (portable) the same size as your internal for CCC clones. Then you can use your large external drive with two partitions, one for TM backups, the other as you like.

    These are the drives I use for CCC clones:
    http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/on-the-go

    HTH
     
  7. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #7
    My internal drive is 250gb and my external is a My Book Studio Edition 750gb

    Thanks for Everything,
    cfs
     
  8. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

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    #8
    Here is what I suggest using only your 750gb drive:

    Partition 1: 2X the space you have already used on your internal disk (used space, not available space) for CCC. Example - used space =100GB so Partition 1 = 200GB

    Partition 2: 3X used space for TM Backups

    Partition 3: Anything left over for your DVD ripping

    Mileage may vary. Keep in mind that if this still isn't enough space, you will have to get another disk such as I suggested in my former post and that this is only a temporary solution.
     
  9. ChrisA macrumors G4

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    #9
    Why do you need to make three partitions? Why woud you want to use "Carbon Copy" when you have Time Machine except to make a redundent third copy backup but then you put it on the same disk as Time machine. Does not make sense. The carbon copy image on the 750Gb drive will just take up space and serve no purpose. Better to let TM use the space
     
  10. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #10
    I am kind of learning how TM works and from what I understand, it has no hard copy. Therefore, if I was only using TM and my imac had to go to a shop for repair and I needed something, I would not be able to just upload a hard copy from my external HD. But if I had CCC this would be possible.

    So I figured one partition for TM

    One for CCC

    and one for my movie library I have on DVD but don't want cluttering my internal HD.

    I have made no decisions yet as I am still researching.

    Cheers,
    cfs
     
  11. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

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    #11
    Have you ever done a full restore using TM? It takes many, many hours. Whereas booting from a Clone, wiping your internal disk and restoring from the clone takes a lot less time. I have an internal 250GB disk and restoring from the clone takes about two hours (I have a lot of data) whereas using TM, it could take all night.

    TM is great for recovering files but for a full restoration, I have more confidence in a bootable clone. Secondly booting from a clone, I can run various maintenance programs (Disk Warrior, Disk Utility, etc.) and make repairs on the internal disk, whereas you can not boot from TM.
     
  12. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    Just wondering as I am new at this, what kind of repairs would you need to possibly run?

    -cfs
     
  13. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

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    #13
    Sometimes things go "bump into the night". You experience a crash (we all have at one time or another and get file system corruption and you want to repair your internal disk, but Disk Utility won't let you (can't run repairs on the start up disk). That's where booting from a clone comes in. Once booted from a clone, you can do whatever you need to on your internal startup disk.

    Here's another example:

    Apple comes out with an OS update (10.5.2 -> 10.5.3). Before I run any update, I clone my internal disk to an external disk. I then boot from the external disk and run Disk Warrior to check the internal disk and make any repairs if it finds errors. Then I reboot to my internal disk and apply the update. I use it for a day or two. If I discover problems with the update, I can then boot off of my clone, wipe the internal disk and clone back to the internal disk when it was in a good known working condition.

    There are many other examples of why you would use a clone but having a clone is a definite safety net.
     
  14. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #14
    Thanks for your in-depth examples. I kind of understand but it is a bit over my head at the moment. I will reread and try to internalize the info you wrote again. I really want to fully understand what you mean because I feel it is knowledge that will benefit me in the future.

    -cfs
     
  15. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    Awsome suggestion. Thanks.
    -cfs
     
  16. eman macrumors 6502a

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    In the great white north
    #16
    It takes about an 1.3 hours to restore from my clone, quick and easy. Also, I can boot my macbook from my USB clone HD and have full use of disk utility etc... Using a USB bootable clone is the way to go for me.
     
  17. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #17
    [QUOTE
    One thing I forgot...
    If you are using an Intel Mac, MAKE SURE when you do your partitioning, that you select (options) the GUID Partition Table scheme. Otherwise, TM will not recognize the partition and you will not be able to boot from the CC Clone partition.[/QUOTE]

    last night I hooked up my external and gave it 3 partitions using GUID and choosing Extended Journal for the format for all three.

    1 partition for TM

    1 partition for CCC

    1 partition for my DVD's and other documents that I don't want to take space and don't care about backup.

    Would you have chosen extended journal for the format for the free space portion of my partition?

    Also, can one partition an external HD and have one partition be bootable in ba PC the and the other side a MAC?


    Do you think I should have chose extended journal for the partition that is being used for my own free space?


    Cheers,

    cfs

    By the way, thanks for the info about how to partition. It was really easy to do once my My Book somehow ended up powering up after unknown reasons why it didn't work.
     
  18. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    #18
    last night I hooked up my external and gave it 3 partitions using GUID and choosing Extended Journal for the format for all three.

    1 partition for TM

    1 partition for CCC

    1 partition for my DVD's and other documents that I don't want to take space and don't care about backup.

    Would you have chosen extended journal for the format for the free space portion of my partition?

    Also, can one partition an external HD and have one partition be bootable in ba PC the and the other side a MAC?


    Do you think I should have chose extended journal for the partition that is being used for my own free space?


    Cheers,

    cfs

    By the way, thanks for the info about how to partition. It was really easy to do once my My Book somehow ended up powering up after unknown reasons why it didn't work.[/QUOTE]


    "Also, can one partition an external HD and have one partition be bootable in ba PC the and the other side a MAC?"

    I don't understand the question "ba PC"... (what is that?)

    "Would you have chosen extended journal for the format for the free space portion of my partition?"

    Journaling makes it easier for MacOS to recover in case of a crash. I use extended journaling on all of my partitions.

    "By the way, thanks for the info about how to partition. It was really easy to do once my My Book somehow ended up powering up after unknown reasons why it didn't work."

    Can you explain what was happening with your My Book?

    Many drive manufactures pre-format their drives for PC formats (FAT32, NTFS). I'm not sure what you mean "...unknown reasons why it didn't work."

    Glad to have helped.
     
  19. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #19

    Hi Again,

    Sorry for the poor explanations. What I meant was:

    "Can one partition an external HD and have one partition be bootable in a PC the and the other side a MAC?"

    I asked this because I was under the assumption that if you saved, lets say a powerpoint document and used CCC to back it up from your internal HD to an external HD that was formatted for a MAC, then one would not be able to open that document on a non-mac computer.

    Therefore because my families own pc's, if something happened and my MAC went to the shop for a few days, I want to make sure I can get that data up and running if needed.

    Can you explain what was happening with your My Book?

    Many drive manufactures pre-format their drives for PC formats (FAT32, NTFS). I'm not sure what you mean "...unknown reasons why it didn't work."


    When I connected my MY Book the first time an plugged it in, it automatically powerd on and my iMac read it fine and TM worked like a charm.

    However, I read somewhere that the My Book would not need a power cord and could be powered through the Firewire 800-or so I thought I read. Toi test it I unplugged the My Book and the External HD shut off and the warning sign about data loss came across my screen.

    When I went to plug the My Book in again, nothing would power it up. I messed with it for a while but nothing. I let it sit for a little and then tried again and it worked, and still works great. No data loss either. Confused about the stability but at least it has a 5year warranty.

    Thanks Again,

    CFS
     
  20. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    #20

    Hi Again,

    Sorry for the poor explanations. What I meant was:

    "Can one partition an external HD and have one partition be bootable in a PC the and the other side a MAC?"

    I asked this because I was under the assumption that if you saved, lets say a powerpoint document and used CCC to back it up from your internal HD to an external HD that was formatted for a MAC, then one would not be able to open that document on a non-mac computer.

    Therefore because my families own pc's, if something happened and my MAC went to the shop for a few days, I want to make sure I can get that data up and running if needed.

    Can you explain what was happening with your My Book?

    Many drive manufactures pre-format their drives for PC formats (FAT32, NTFS). I'm not sure what you mean "...unknown reasons why it didn't work."


    When I connected my MY Book the first time an plugged it in, it automatically powerd on and my iMac read it fine and TM worked like a charm.

    However, I read somewhere that the My Book would not need a power cord and could be powered through the Firewire 800-or so I thought I read. Toi test it I unplugged the My Book and the External HD shut off and the warning sign about data loss came across my screen.

    When I went to plug the My Book in again, nothing would power it up. I messed with it for a while but nothing. I let it sit for a little and then tried again and it worked, and still works great. No data loss either. Confused about the stability but at least it has a 5year warranty.

    Thanks Again,

    CFS[/QUOTE]

    "Can one partition an external HD and have one partition be bootable in a PC the and the other side a MAC?"[/I]

    I asked this because I was under the assumption that if you saved, lets say a powerpoint document and used CCC to back it up from your internal HD to an external HD that was formatted for a MAC, then one would not be able to open that document on a non-mac computer."

    No. When you partition the disk, it applies the same format to all partitions on the disk.

    If you are using Office on the Mac and on the PC, you should have no problem opening those files on either side but you may need additional software on the PC in order to connect the external drive and mount it on the PC. Get's a little tricky when you have multiple partitions though.


    "However, I read somewhere that the My Book would not need a power cord and could be powered through the Firewire 800-or so I thought I read. Toi test it I unplugged the My Book and the External HD shut off and the warning sign about data loss came across my screen."

    That was your first mistake. You are lucky you didn't have data corruption.
    Here are two rules you MUST follow:
    1. Never Ever disconnect an external disk without dismounting it first from the mac.
    2. Read Rule 1 again!

    Dismounting it first lets the MacOS un-mount its file system. Then it is safe to pull the firewire cable. Otherwise you will get the same warning you received about data corruption and the next time, you may actually have it.

    Since you are using firewire bus power, of course the the disk will shut off when you disconnect the cable since it no longer has any power and it wasn't unmounted leaving it in sort of a state of limbo until it's internal capacitors had time to discharge.
     
  21. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #21
    [QUOTE

    Dismounting it first lets the MacOS un-mount its file system. Then it is safe to pull the firewire cable. Otherwise you will get the same warning you received about data corruption and the next time, you may actually have it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Would I know if I corrupted something? If not, is there a way I can find out so I can fix it?

    -cfs
     
  22. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

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    New Jersey, USA
    #22
    Would I know if I corrupted something? If not, is there a way I can find out so I can fix it?

    -cfs[/QUOTE]

    Just run Disk Utility, Select the each volume and under First Aid, use the verify button. If you see an error, then run the repair button.
     
  23. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #23
    Just run Disk Utility, Select the each volume and under First Aid, use the verify button. If you see an error, then run the repair button.[/QUOTE]

    I'm really sorry about all the questions and appreciate your responses. I am not one to ask without researching, but in this case you have saved me lots of time. Time could have possibly cause me to lose all my data if I waited to understand everything all on my own.

    Last question for this thread...hopefully.

    Would I run disk utility for external hd or internal hd?

    If on external, do I run it by partition or the whole HD

    -cfs
     
  24. merl1n macrumors 65816

    merl1n

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    #24
    I'm really sorry about all the questions and appreciate your responses. I am not one to ask without researching, but in this case you have saved me lots of time. Time could have possibly cause me to lose all my data if I waited to understand everything all on my own.

    Last question for this thread...hopefully.

    Would I run disk utility for external hd or internal hd?

    If on external, do I run it by partition or the whole HD

    -cfs[/QUOTE]


    Sorry for the delay, I missed your thread answering others.

    You want to run it on each volume (partition) of the external drive.
     
  25. cfs thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    Feb 8, 2008
    #25

    Sorry for the delay, I missed your thread answering others.

    You want to run it on each volume (partition) of the external drive.[/QUOTE]


    Thanks for all of your help on this. I think I am all set with this thread. You have been very clear in your writing. Much appreciated for all your help. See you around the forum.

    -CFS
     

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