Carriers Object to Apple's Plans for Built-In iPhone SIM Even as GSMA Moves Forward

[Azathoth]

Example #3,672 of how Apple is the only corporation left that goes to bat for you, the consumer, the little guy.

All other corporations want to FSCK you over!= for their own profits!!

GO APPLE. The ONLY corporation worth supporting.

??

This has nothing to do with Apple "standing up for the little guy" (if they gave a shott then they've wouldnt have made it AT&T exclusive for the USA, remember!?), outside the US (e.g. Europe) iPhones can be bought carrier free. I think the main reason is to save a few mm^3 in the next revision if there is no user accessible SIM then there is no need for a door, panel, open-able bit on the phone.

 

[Burger Thing]

I would not put Burger Thing in the group of wealthy jet-set group.

Based on his post he is more of a trucker for the air. He is just basically an airline pilot

Ha Ha... That is soooo true - still love hauling the 3-holers over the Pacific, though, and have never regretted that I left the IT business

 

[maokh]

Its amazing what ranting and raving you hear when you even let a peep out to a carrier regarding the entire "built in sim" (basically SIM on chip) concept. I swear some take it personally.

I really hope that carriers change their mind, as it only means a lot more money for them, but they seem to think that a SIM gives them ultimate control over the network.

Every M2M design/phone/etc is limited to a formfactor that involves a 25 x 15 or 15 x 12mm off limits area that requires an (inherently unreliable) mechanical contact to some cheap plastic card.

Funny how CDMA carriers don't have an issue with this, as nobody here uses RUIMs.

 

[Ping Guo]

You already can't do it if your friend has a iphone 4 with a micro sim card and you have a regular size SIM in your regular GSM phone.

This isn't about getting cheap voice minutes for the 2 week oversea vacation. The is about getting a million things cheaper during the 50 weeks out of the whole year --- in a 500% mobile penetration world.

500% mobile penetration world... what does that even mean? What demonstrable benefit does using embedded SIMs give the end user? There hasn't been one single example given, just some florid pie-in-the-sky technobabble.

There have been several very valid reasons given of how this doesn't benefit the consumer. Again, this isn't about a "2-week vacation" and getting cheap minutes as you put it. Keeping plans (voice/data that you have paid for) and devices (phones/tablets/laptops) separate offers the consumer the greatest choice and freedom. Using removable SIMs that you can put in the device of your choosing is simple, foolproof, and can be done anywhere in the world. Full stop.

 

[Mavimao]

I'm really surprised by all the anti-SIM card rhetoric on this thread, and it seems that a lot of it comes from Americans who are used to a cell phone culture that has people locked to a certain phone in a certain plan with a certain carrier.

In the states, there is so little freedom on what you're allowed to use and choose. You want verizon, well you're stuck with their phones. Same with ATT and Sprint and T-mobile. Sure you can change a phone whenever you like but you have to purchase the phone from your plan provider. You're basically stuck with whatever they offer.

In Europe, you can buy a plan and later purchase whatever phone you want, where you want and plug your SIM card in and bam - you're ready to go. Sure certain carriers can sell you locked-down, subsidized phones, but it's very easy to unlock them here. There are strings of shops that offer codes, and even your carrier can provide you with a code to unlock it.

I'm sorry America that you're clamped in the jaws of the telecoms, but it's not sim-less cards (or any type of technology) that are going to break this grasp.

PS: yeah, Samab, what the hell does 500% penetration even suppose to mean and how does this even relate to the topic?

 

[blackburn]

Yes we can chose what phone we want to use, they can't force us not using it.

But the iPhone thingy is way more crappier here. 3 operators selling locked iPhones for the same price, and guess what, apple wasn't forced to have 3 operators selling iphones.

There are still carrier exclusive phones (most likely crappy ones 15eur to 150eur but you can still get them unlocked).

There are 3 of 3 operators selling iPhones, because none here wants them, they are too expensive. The stores are full of them. Paying 750eur for an iPhone and them being forced to use an data plan because the iphone automatically connects to the Internet?

An locked 32gb iPhone costs 780eur (checked today) my macbook (new from apple, not an refurb) costed me 850eur.

 

[fabianjj]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; sv-se) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

I went to AT&T's site to have a look at these marvelous plans.

"Data Plan for iPhone - starting at $15 per month"

You have to be kidding me. With Telia in Sweden I pay 69 SEK (10 USD by the exchange rate right now) for, crap, I don't even know. I use it daily and nobody has stopped me in the past year or so. There is also the option to not get a data plan and use it metered. Using that method the most you can be charged is 9 SEK/day.

Of course it is ultimately trivial to compare base costs between countries because exchange rates don't take into account the real cost/purchasing power/cost of living. 10 USD may be 69 SEK, but does 10 USD equate to 69 SEK in terms of percentage of income etc?

To be honest I have no idea, but from where I am sitting (which admittedly is limited as AT&T doesn't seem to like telling you any costs without inputting ZIP codes, being a customer or whatnot) these AT&T plans do not look anything like "one of the best iphone pricing plans in the whole industrialized world".

I said --- historically --- up until a few months ago, the US had unlimited iphone data plans.

It is not that trivial at all --- that's why I only compare prices in the industrialized first world. Most of the time, I even restricted my competition to the G7 countries. No point of talking about how cheap Portugal price plans are --- they have a much lower purchasing power than the G7 countries.

From what I can tell on the AT&T website, they charge 45$/Month for 2gb data with tethering, 69$/month for unlimited voice, And 20$/month for unlimited messaging, that plus 199 for an iPhone 4 16gb. I Sweden i get all that (the only difference being my data is unlimited) for 699 SEK/month, which is like 98$/month in currency conversion, but probably more like 75$ given the price of most goods compared to American, and there is no initial charge for the phone itself.

And yes I get all UNLIMITED with no "fair-use policy" or any caps.

 

[Winter Charm]

It's good to see Apple at least considering this idea, even if they have backed off for the moment. The more that manufacturers attempt to rein in the carriers, the better things are likely to be for consumers.

I wholeheartedly agree. Carriers these days have gotten way out of hand.

I mean, who charges 20$ for texting?? it's EMAIL using a cell phone number instead of a traditional address....

If this creates inter-carrier competition with each one trying to lure customers with better plans, then so be it, count me in. I'd love to see AT&T prices come down in the US to compete with Sprint, Virgin Mobile, Verizon, etc.

 

[JAT]

I am not saying you are wrong, but I honestly have never come across this in my life. I've never even heard of it until this thread.

Tmobile, at least in the USA, shows what phone you have online when you login to your account. Picture of it right there.

Still haven't seen anything that can't be done both ways, depending on the carrier's setup. And we're already dependent on what the carriers allow, something people seem to ignore.

SIM = SIM

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I'm really surprised by all the anti-SIM card rhetoric on this thread, and it seems that a lot of it comes from Americans who are used to a cell phone culture that has people locked to a certain phone in a certain plan with a certain carrier.

In the states, there is so little freedom on what you're allowed to use and choose. You want verizon, well you're stuck with their phones. Same with ATT and Sprint and T-mobile. Sure you can change a phone whenever you like but you have to purchase the phone from your plan provider. You're basically stuck with whatever they offer.

In Europe, you can buy a plan and later purchase whatever phone you want, where you want and plug your SIM card in and bam - you're ready to go. Sure certain carriers can sell you locked-down, subsidized phones, but it's very easy to unlock them here. There are strings of shops that offer codes, and even your carrier can provide you with a code to unlock it.

I'm sorry America that you're clamped in the jaws of the telecoms, but it's not sim-less cards (or any type of technology) that are going to break this grasp.

PS: yeah, Samab, what the hell does 500% penetration even suppose to mean and how does this even relate to the topic?

Welcome to the reason why Apple fans opinion are consider meanless. This thread is just more proof of how many of them can not think for themselves.

You should see some of the bashing of Verizon CDMA. I have see the it does not have Sim card blah blah blah....from some of hte same members saying how great this is.
I though going Micro Sim was BS. There was no reason to do it other than to lock you in more.

 

[UK-MacAddict]

Built in SIM's is the stupidest thing I've heard. What happens if your iPhone breaks? Right now I can just pop my sim out and stick it into another phone.

I dont like the way Apple are becoming to controlling and dominating. I preferred it when they were still the underdogs. They've got a little too big headed lately.

 

[macintoshtoffy]

??

This has nothing to do with Apple "standing up for the little guy" (if they gave a shott then they've wouldnt have made it AT&T exclusive for the USA, remember!?), outside the US (e.g. Europe) iPhones can be bought carrier free. I think the main reason is to save a few mm^3 in the next revision if there is no user accessible SIM then there is no need for a door, panel, open-able bit on the phone.

No, because American's are cheapskates who want something for free whilst they get raped each month with a contract - lets not try to kid ourselves that it has wholly to do with Apple. There is an American culture where people expect their phones to be heavily subsidised, those of us outside the US lost the generous subsidies years ago when the market opened up the phone became unlocked. Until there is a culture change in the United States into accepting that they'll have to pay $800 up front for a phone the current situation will not change - no business in their right mind would make such a massive change when they can keep the current gravy train rolling; dumb and stupid customers thinking they're got a 'good deal' when they pay $199 for a iPhone from AT&T.

 

[Ping Guo]

No, because American's are cheapskates who want something for free whilst they get raped each month with a contract - lets not try to kid ourselves that it has wholly to do with Apple. There is an American culture where people expect their phones to be heavily subsidised, those of us outside the US lost the generous subsidies years ago when the market opened up the phone became unlocked. Until there is a culture change in the United States into accepting that they'll have to pay $800 up front for a phone the current situation will not change - no business in their right mind would make such a massive change when they can keep the current gravy train rolling; dumb and stupid customers thinking they're got a 'good deal' when they pay $199 for a iPhone from AT&T.

We're called Americans not American's.

Otherwise I agree 100%, we need to break the backs of these sh***y service providers who are screwing us left, right, and center. Hopefully someday we'll smarten up and our telcos will be the dumb pipes they should have been all along. We buy our SIM and preload our data that we pay for, no voice/sms/data plan rubbish. Then we put our preloaded SIM in the device of our choosing, whether it's a smartphone, tablet, mobile hotspot, or laptop. If our credit gets low we receive an sms or email, and recharge easily online. Free at last!

 

[samab]

No, because American's are cheapskates who want something for free whilst they get raped each month with a contract - lets not try to kid ourselves that it has wholly to do with Apple

Actually, the real cheapskates are the overseas people --- plenty of carriers around the world offers zero dollar iphones, including your neighboring Australia.

 

[samab]

I'm really surprised by all the anti-SIM card rhetoric on this thread, and it seems that a lot of it comes from Americans who are used to a cell phone culture that has people locked to a certain phone in a certain plan with a certain carrier.

It is not anti-SIM card rhetoric at all --- we are merely looking at the overall picture.

The iphone's international launch taught us one big thing --- there is no such thing as ETF's outside North America. Technically Europeans can switch carriers, but financially they can't because there is no ETF's (let alone pro-rated ETF's) if they are under contract.

North Americans can get out of their contract relatively cheaply and then sign another contract with a new carrier --- which conveniently gives them a zero dollar phone. Why would they care if they are migrating from a GSM carrier to a CDMA carrier and can't bring their phone?

CPU speed doubles every 18 months. It means that my zero dollar phone will probably be better and faster than your 2 year old iphone that you want to keep after you finished off your contract and migrate to a different carrier.

 

[samab]

500% mobile penetration world... what does that even mean? What demonstrable benefit does using embedded SIMs give the end user? There hasn't been one single example given, just some florid pie-in-the-sky technobabble.

There have been several very valid reasons given of how this doesn't benefit the consumer. Again, this isn't about a "2-week vacation" and getting cheap minutes as you put it. Keeping plans (voice/data that you have paid for) and devices (phones/tablets/laptops) separate offers the consumer the greatest choice and freedom. Using removable SIMs that you can put in the device of your choosing is simple, foolproof, and can be done anywhere in the world. Full stop.

You need to cut your regular size SIM card to fit the micro-SIM slot in the iphone 4. You don't need that micro-sim adapter, you need an x-acto knife.

The article I linked specifically talked about smart meters.

As the international iphone launch have definitely proven, if your market is anti-competitve, then it's anti-competitive. Nothing is going to fix that. So what if all 3 French carriers offer to sell the iphone completely unlocked? You are screwed because there are only 3 French carriers and that they had a history with price fixing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=alHuicTVb4r8&refer=top_world_news

What does SIM card has to do with your 50 week out of the year being screwed by 3 carriers that have a history of price fixing? If you are screwed, then you are screwed. Nothing is going to fix that.

 

[Stella]

Actually, the real cheapskates are the overseas people --- plenty of carriers around the world offers zero dollar iphones, including your neighboring Australia.

Its called "Competition".

Something which North America lacks.

USA - iPhone - only one carrier
Canada -> iPhone available on 3 carriers but each are in cahoots with each other to keep prices high, backed by CRTC.

 

[samab]

Its called "Competition".

Something which North America lacks.

USA - iPhone - only one carrier
Canada -> iPhone available on 3 carriers but each are in cahoots with each other to keep prices high, backed by CRTC.

Plenty of other countries have it worst, just look at France --- these are carriers that had a history of price fixing. Norway has only 2 national carriers. Look at Japan and Korea, their largest carrier own 50% of the market. Japan, Germany, China --- their big carrier is still quasi-government owned.

 

[vampyren]

this sucks

This would be the only reason for me to switch to another brand! I hate to own a phone that wont work when i go abroad. There are so many carriers that might not sign etc.
Glad they backed down on this.

 

[Stella]

Plenty of other countries have it worst, just look at France --- these are carriers that had a history of price fixing. Norway has only 2 national carriers. Look at Japan and Korea, their largest carrier own 50% of the market. Japan, Germany, China --- their big carrier is still quasi-government owned.

Here's a survey of the cost of cell phones world wide. Near the bottom is a partial list. This is from 2008, I'm sure there's an updated version. It would be interesting to see the whole list instead of top 10 and where Canada and USA are.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/canadas-cellphone-rates-among-highest/article1247843/

 

[samab]

Here's a survey of the cost of cell phones world wide. Near the bottom is a partial list. This is from 2008, I'm sure there's an updated version. It would be interesting to see the whole list instead of top 10 and where Canada and USA are.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/canadas-cellphone-rates-among-highest/article1247843/

BS OECD comparison. You can read the actual OECD report.

http://browse.oecdbookshop.org/oecd/pdfs/browseit/9309031E.PDF

Go to page 275:

“It is important to note again that the OECD calling pattern in the basket can be significantly different than common calling profiles in a specific country. For example, the high-usage OECD basket includes 1,680 outgoing voice calls per year while users in the United States average 9,600 minutes of voice calls (combined incoming and outgoing) per year. In this case the basket provides the cost of buying exactly the calls and messages in the OECD basket rather than what may be considered a ‘typical’ bundle in the market.”

The average American (4800 outgoing minutes per year) talks 3x more than the OECD's "heavy high usage". The average American talks 6x more than the OECD's average "medium usage".

They are basically classifying a Mini Cooper as the size of an average family car.

And when you go to page 297 and page 298 --- you will find that OECD use the AT&T Wireless Nations 450 Messaging 200 for both medium and high usage. Samething for Canada as well, OECD uses the same Bell Mobility package for the same price for both medium and high usage. Now you know why the OECD report is flawed.

 

[JAT]

No, because American's are cheapskates who want something for free whilst they get raped each month with a contract - lets not try to kid ourselves that it has wholly to do with Apple. There is an American culture where people expect their phones to be heavily subsidised, those of us outside the US lost the generous subsidies years ago when the market opened up the phone became unlocked. Until there is a culture change in the United States into accepting that they'll have to pay $800 up front for a phone the current situation will not change - no business in their right mind would make such a massive change when they can keep the current gravy train rolling; dumb and stupid customers thinking they're got a 'good deal' when they pay $199 for a iPhone from AT&T.

Tmobile already did, 2 full sets of plans available right on the website, the non-subsidized includes language saying you 'can't go back'. And really, you have options from most of them to not subsidize, they just aren't quite as obvious as the flashing ads on their home pages for 'Free Phone'. AND, it's not like the carriers got together in 1992 and took a poll asking whether we wanted subsidies or not. We have what they offer, and take it or not.

I guess I don't see why there is vitriol and name-calling from someone who doesn't even live here, and can't be bothered to research before spewing.

 

[samab]

I guess I don't see why there is vitriol and name-calling from someone who doesn't even live here, and can't be bothered to research before spewing.

His comment got extra ironic today because UK just announced the world's first subsidized ipad deal.

Since Apple started selling the iphone in 2007, Americans have never gotten the chance to get a zero dollar iphone. Plenty of oversea carriers offer zero dollar iphone deals. Hell, AT&T doesn't even offer zero dollar refurbished iphone on a 2 year contract.

 

[aggri1]

For those of us who are concerned about using a software-SIM-phone overseas...

I was wondering why it shouldn't work. I would expect that when I go overseas, I go to some little corner store and get my local pre-paid SIM pack, but instead of containing a little piece of plastic it has a few codes under a scratch panel or something. I type the codes into my phone. Then, I choose to use this new "SIM" which I've loaded onto the phone, temporarily. My 'home' SIM is still "on" the phone, just temporarily out-of-use. As far as my 'home' carrier is concerned, my phone is switched off (or out of range or whatever). When I go to the next country or region, I get another little "SIM pack", and so forth.

This way I can have a whole list of "SIMs" loaded on the phone, and I can just choose the one I wish to use.

Is this not feasible? Have I misunderstood some limitation here?

Cheers, A.

 

[Johnny82]

It would appear that some Apple fanboys really just refuse to think things through in the long term. Something is dished out by Apple, and they just eat it up without any thought into it.

How is having a phone with a built in sim card a good idea? The only thing I can even fathom is for the iPhone in particular, you wouldn't need to have a slider anywhere on the phone to place the sim (seeing as they refuse to allow battery access where you could place the sim. but not allowing battery access was probably a decision regarding aesthetics). Another idea is that it makes it harder to switch to another phone, which is good for Apple.

Why would anyone not want the option to simply switch a SIM card from one phone to another? Why would you want to have to call and have a company do it for you, which means waiting, when you could do it in a matter of seconds on your own? What happens if you break your precious iPhone 5 with built in SIM, and want to boot up your old mobile as a temp replacement?

Why would want to be locked to that one device? People are lazy, and when you add a hassle to a process, they'll fall for it. They aren't going to want to go through the pain of getting a new SIM, manually entering their phone #s and contacts again. This is just Apples ploy at making it easier to stick with the iPhone.

This isn't about more freedom and having unlocked devices, this is about making it more difficult to get away from the iPhone. You think carriers are going to subsidize the phone and then allow you to switch services? Its up to the vendor to sell something locked or unlocked when purchasing the product at full price.

For the rest of you that understood the article, fanboy or not, kudos.