Carriers Object to Apple's Plans for Built-In iPhone SIM Even as GSMA Moves Forward

[mlts22]

Even worse, all carriers have to do is not allow devices on their networks without their logos. I know Sprint used to do this -- unless the phone had a Sprint logo on it, it would not get activated by them.

SIM cards are nice in this respect. Cellular providers *could* go by device IMEI and ban stuff, but that is usually too much work.

I have had enough of lock-in, where I have to change my device if I want to move carriers, or use another in a country. SIM cards are not that bad, compared to the alternative of pleading with providers to allow them to put your phone on their networks.

 

[profets]

You are saying this "undesigned" system is bad because you've already decided that you are going to get screwed by it. I have no idea why you think that viewpoint is the most reasonable one.

I can't explain how this system would work to to you because you've already shut the side of your brain that's responsible for logical thought off, but here it goes anyway: Imagine every SIM card in the world. Now imagine that they all fit in your phone. That's the potential of this. You're right, we do have to see how it plays out and how it's implemented, but arguing from the point of view that you're going to get screwed and thus there is no way you can benefit from this is stupid.

No, I'm not saying its bad, I'm just saying I prefer sims as I have the control within my hands.

I've shut off my brain? lol sure.

Like I said earlier, lets assume its all implemented perfectly, and we don't get screwed. What are the benefits to the consumer? Seriously, I want to know. You still didn't answer that question.

Things have to move forward, devices are changing, and more than just phones will be using a "SIM" to connect to a gsm network. Maybe its needed for smaller devices.. but you know where all the benefit truly lies? Manufacturers, Carriers.. reduced costs, simplified logistics, tighter device management for carriers.

Hey, I'm not saying its a bad thing, I'm just saying we consumers lose that bit of control - The simple ability to move a sim card from one device to another and that account following it.. I have a sim card that has an unlimited data plan on it. I move it from a mifi-type device some days, to a phone on other days, and other times in a tablet or ipad (hoping one day).

 

[in one ear]

Explain exactly why carriers can't do those things with removable SIMS?

You'll have a hard time of it, because they can and do.

it's not a difficult concept to grasp but you still don't seem to be able to understand. Excuse me if i sound patronising but it's what happens when you have to break it down into baby steps : are you ready ?

I am living in the uk where it cost 85-35p/min to call overseas. if i were travelling to india, to call home i would be charged at this expensive rate. SMS rates are also comparable ie. REALLY EXPENSIVE ...

now .. if I remove my sim and replace it with a prepaid local indian SIM .. calls are charged at the LOCAL RATE. Which mean calls cost 5p.min back to the UK instead of 35-85p/min. Also you can use local data / sms are a fraction of the price, which makes it REALLY CHEAP.

how are you supposed to do this with a built in SIM ? and without a laptop ? hint : you can't

jesus ...

 

[profets]

it's not a difficult concept to grasp but you still don't seem to be able to understand. Excuse me if i sound patronising but it's what happens when you have to break it down into baby steps : are you ready ?

I am living in the uk where it cost 85-35p/min to call overseas. if i were travelling to india, to call home i would be charged at this expensive rate. SMS rates are also comparable ie. REALLY EXPENSIVE ...

now .. if I remove my sim and replace it with a prepaid local indian SIM .. calls are charged at the LOCAL RATE. Which mean calls cost 5p.min back to the UK instead of 35-85p/min. Also you can use local data / sms are a fraction of the price, which makes it REALLY CHEAP.

how are you supposed to do this with a built in SIM ? and without a laptop ? hint : you can't

jesus ...

Though I agree with you, that last line isn't necessarily correct considering a system for this sim-less network/phone hasnt even been designed. It would be expected that while in India your phone should be able to register on the indian carrier as a local device. of course who knows how this will all be designed, implemented, managed, etc..

 

[coleridge78]

I know myself. I've done it. Heck, I recently did it with my iPhone because something was wonkers on my GF's iPhone and they were claiming a defective SIM. I popped it into my iPhone and everything worked like a charm, which showed my carrier the problem was the handset, not the SIM.

I used it when I had to swap my iPhone out when the mute switch gave out, popped my SIM into an older phone while my iPhone was being "serviced".

I used it a few times when I forgot to charge my phone and was waiting for an important call while on the road, used my friend's phone, popped my SIM in, forwarded my calls to his phone and put his SIM back. I took my call when it rang on his phone that day.

Yes, swapping a SIM phone to phone is practical. What benefits of the SIMless phone outweight the loss of all these ? Seriously ? If I wanted a SIMless phone, I'd be on a CDMA carrier. I don't get it, all you SIMless lovers can get a SIMless phone already.

A listed a number of advantages, and noted that some of the trumpeted "freedom" of SIMs are just factually incorrect. Unsurprisingly, you excised that from my message when you quoted it. Ah well.

If I was waiting for a single important call, instead of forwarding all my calls and annoying my friend I would use his phone for 30 seconds to call or text the person whose call I was expecting and let them know of the change in venue. Or ask him to email me, or something else, because since I am "on the road with a friend" in this scenario it's seemingly unlikely that this call is actually time-sensitive because... I won't be able to do anything in response to it, being "on the road" and all.

Even worse, all carriers have to do is not allow devices on their networks without their logos. I know Sprint used to do this -- unless the phone had a Sprint logo on it, it would not get activated by them.

SIM cards are nice in this respect. Cellular providers *could* go by device IMEI and ban stuff, but that is usually too much work.

You're wrong. They all do it all the time, where allowed by law, and having the SIM be non-removable makes it no harder or easier (it makes it, in fact... exactly the same).

 

[macUser2007]

Explain exactly why carriers can't do those things with removable SIMS?

You'll have a hard time of it, because they can and do.

Have ever traveled? If so, have you ever used a local SIM?

Do you understand that the pre-paid SIMs you can buy work with ANY unlocked GSM phone?

Do you understand the concept of pre-paid SIMs at all?

Hm..., apparently not.

 

[coleridge78]

it's not a difficult concept to grasp but you still don't seem to be able to understand. Excuse me if i sound patronising but it's what happens when you have to break it down into baby steps : are you ready ?

I am living in the uk where it cost 85-35p/min to call overseas. if i were travelling to india, to call home i would be charged at this expensive rate. SMS rates are also comparable ie. REALLY EXPENSIVE ...

now .. if I remove my sim and replace it with a prepaid local indian SIM .. calls are charged at the LOCAL RATE. Which mean calls cost 5p.min back to the UK instead of 35-85p/min. Also you can use local data / sms are a fraction of the price, which makes it REALLY CHEAP.

how are you supposed to do this with a built in SIM ? and without a laptop ? hint : you can't

Why yes. Yes, in fact, you can.

You have the freedom that you do with your phone because it is guaranteed by EU law, not thanks to the benevolence of carriers. I am not sure why you think the law would change...

 

[KnightWRX]

If I was waiting for a single important call, instead of forwarding all my calls and annoying my friend I would use his phone for 30 seconds to call or text the person whose call I was expecting and let them know of the change in venue. Or ask him to email me, or something else, because since I am "on the road with a friend" in this scenario it's seemingly unlikely that this call is actually time-sensitive because... I won't be able to do anything in response to it, being "on the road" and all.

You assume way too much. In one instance this was a response for a job interview and it was too late to grab voicemail and calling them to tell them to call me at another number would've looked quite dumb. And how am I supposed to take my e-mail if my phone is dead ? This was circa 2002 anyway, on the road e-mail wasn't something that was easy.

Anyway, my method worked fine, I took the call and got the job. Something a SIMless phone wouldn't have allowed me to do. So no matter how much you want to try to find scenarios captain Hindsight, at that moment, the SIM swapping method worked and was painless.

I used it a few times since then since it just works and requires no intervention besides the 2 minutes it takes to forward calls. No calling anyone else and giving them instructions, no checking manually for e-mails on some imaginary device...

It is a benefit.

 

[coleridge78]

Have ever traveled? If so, have you ever used a local SIM?

Do you understand that the pre-paid SIMs you can buy work with ANY unlocked GSM phone?

Do you understand the concept of pre-paid SIMs at all?

Hm..., apparently not.

Do you not understand the concept that this portability is a function of EU consumer laws and not the benevolence of carriers, and that there is zero evidence that the law would change?

Hm..., apparently not.

 

[coleridge78]

You assume way too much. In one instance this was a response for a job interview and it was too late to grab voicemail and calling them to tell them to call me at another number would've looked quite dumb. And how am I supposed to take my e-mail if my phone is dead ? This was circa 2002 anyway, on the road e-mail wasn't something that was easy.

Anyway, my method worked fine, I took the call and got the job. Something a SIMless phone wouldn't have allowed me to do. So no matter how much you want to try to find scenarios captain Hindsight, at that moment, the SIM swapping method worked and was painless.

It is a benefit.

I have no doubt that, to one person one time in 2002, it may have been a benefit (though your scenario sounds silly to me, given my own numerous experiences as an interviewer and interviewee, but whatever). Doesn't mean that outweighs the costs.

 

[macUser2007]

Do you not understand the concept that this portability is a function of EU consumer laws and not the benevolence of carriers, and that there is zero evidence that the law would change?

Hm..., apparently not.

What EU laws are you talking about?

As long as your phone is unlocked, pre-paid SIMs work all over the world, including in places where EU law does not reach.

Nothing to do with EU laws.

 

[KnightWRX]

I have no doubt that, to one person one time in 2002, it may have been a benefit (though your scenario sounds silly to me, given my own numerous experiences as an interviewer and interviewee, but whatever). Doesn't mean that outweighs the costs.

I gave you an example from 2002, and I gave you multiple others. I still use the method to this day, in 2010. Find it silly all you want, it just works and is practical. It was practical to me and others for more than one time.

You are failing to even read my posts, why should I keep arguing with you ?

 

[coleridge78]

What EU laws are you talking about?

As long as your phone is unlocked, pre-paid SIMs work all over the world, including in places where EU law does not reach.

Nothing to do with EU laws.

You're wrong. Carriers were more than happy to restrict you and charge you fees for all this switching, until the EU passed laws against it. Once it was illegal in a huge portion of the global market (don't forget that most handset makers and many carriers are multi-national), the natural monetary pressure towards standardization started carrying it over to other places.

Each EU country has their own laws on the specifics of locking/unlocking, but they comply with the baseline of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Commercial_Practices_Directive

 

[paradox00]

Like I said earlier, lets assume its all implemented perfectly, and we don't get screwed. What are the benefits to the consumer? Seriously, I want to know. You still didn't answer that question.

Convenience. I've explained it on numerous occasions and I'm done explaining it.

There's nothing special about that piece of plastic. It's just the medium that is currently used to hold our subscriber data. Remain attached to it if you want. I don't really care. I'll look forward to seeing where this new technology goes.

 

[coleridge78]

I gave you an example from 2002, and I gave you multiple others. I still use the method to this day, in 2010. Find it silly all you want, it just works and is practical. It was practical to me and others for more than one time.

You are failing to even read my posts, why should I keep arguing with you ?

I can tell you're not failing to read mine, because you keep selectively quoting them to avoid the parts that give meat to the debate.

 

[vladzaharia]

The phone would be unlock at the start, just like they are in many places now. And why would be subset, it would work with any sim sevice, just like now...

No, it wouldn't work with any SIM Service. It would work with the carriers that have contracts with Apple for the iPhone. If it is an iPhone-only thing, which it was until the GSMA started considering it, then there would be no reason for Apple to include all carriers in the list.

Also, no, most phones are not unlocked by default. Except for a few carriers, phones are locked to the carrier.

 

[KnightWRX]

I can tell you're not failing to read mine, because you keep selectively quoting them to avoid the parts that give meat to the debate.

Cowardly and sad.

Uh ? The post you are responding to had a full quote of your entire post. You are insulting me for no reason, and thus have been reported.

And ignored.

 

[coleridge78]

Uh ? The post you are responding to had a full quote of your entire post. You are insulting me for no reason, and thus have been reported.

And ignored.

That's purely a lie, as anyone who takes a look at the conversation can plainly see. Bye.

 

[profets]

Convenience. I've explained it on numerous occasions and I'm done explaining it.

There's nothing special about that piece of plastic. It's just the medium that is currently used to hold our subscriber data. Remain attached to it if you want. I don't really care. I'll look forward to seeing where this new technology goes.

The current plastic sim-phone model is extremely convenient. And there is something special about it: the consumer has control over it.

 

[coleridge78]

The current plastic sim-phone model is extremely convenient. And there is something special about it: the consumer has control over it.

You only have "control" inasmuch as the carrier allows the SIM to be moved around--not all (or even most) do.

I'm not clear on why anyone thinks having the SIM built in would change the carrier's attitude towards the negative. If anything, it forces them to be more open to the real consumer goal--handset portability--because there wouldn't be an "out" for them to say "oh, but you can just move your SIM over... after you pay us an unlocking fee, and whatever other fees we want to throw at you."

 

[profets]

You only have "control" inasmuch as the carrier allows the SIM to be moved around--not all (or even most) do.

I'm not clear on why anyone thinks having the SIM built in would change the carrier's attitude towards the negative. If anything, it forces them to be more open to the real consumer goal--handset portability--because there wouldn't be an "out" for them to say "oh, but you can just move your SIM over... after you pay us an unlocking fee, and whatever other fees we want to throw at you."

We have as much control as the GSM standard has designed the sim card for.

"It forces them to be more open to the real consumer goal"? hahaha. Maybe the problem is everyone in the US being used to these locked down networks. We already have handset portability. I purchased an unlocked iPhone 4 from apple, and had 5 carriers I could have chosen to use the phone with. If I am unhappy I can go to another carrier. When I traveled in europe I spent 10 euro cash for a sim along with 10 euro credit for prepaid data. Used it for 2 weeks and still had 5 euro credit on it.

Moral of the story: this portability already exists. And with sim-less phone it could still continue to exist. The thing is I've yet to see how losing the physical sim gives us an advantage? To me its quite clear the advantage will be gained by manufacturers & carriers (not necessarily in a way that will hurt us, but something that benefits them).

 

[samab]

SIM cards have no place in the future.

The future (as Verizon's CEO said it) is 500% wireless penetration --- 400% of those are things like smart meters. It makes zero sense to put a SIM card in a smart meter. This is why the GSMA is getting rid of SIM cards in the future.

http://gigaom.com/2010/11/18/carrier-organization-changes-rules-to-allow-the-apple-sim/

 

[coleridge78]

We have as much control as the GSM standard has designed the sim card for.

"It forces them to be more open to the real consumer goal"? hahaha. Maybe the problem is everyone in the US being used to these locked down networks. We already have handset portability. I purchased an unlocked iPhone 4 from apple, and had 5 carriers I could have chosen to use the phone with. If I am unhappy I can go to another carrier. When I traveled in europe I spent 10 euro cash for a sim along with 10 euro credit for prepaid data. Used it for 2 weeks and still had 5 euro credit on it.

Moral of the story: this portability already exists. And with sim-less phone it could still continue to exist. The thing is I've yet to see how losing the physical sim gives us an advantage? To me its quite clear the advantage will be gained by manufacturers & carriers (not necessarily in a way that will hurt us, but something that benefits them).

Who is "we"? Most of Europe and Asia still allows locking and most of the carriers there still practice it, it's just easier to unlock than in the US or Canada. I don't really think this would have a dramatic favorable impact on portability--the carriers, generally, do exactly the minimum that is required by law.

I'm just contradicting the people who think this means you're giving up control because you can't switch a SIM card. You can switch your SIM around all you want, the carrier still knows what phone you're using it in. This would change nothing, on that front.

And a number of people, including myself, have pointed out some of the benefits (including what is possible for the handset when there is one less removable component to be designed around).

 

[pooprscooper]

Carriers/ISPs are nothing more than a dummy pipe. What we choose to do with that connection is of no one's concern.

 

[archipellago]

surely Apple hardwiring an activation system into an iOS device is the first step along the anti jailbreaking road.??

disallowing that would surely be easy if you could not remove the SIM??

This is good for Apple.....

no one else.