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You are opposed to something because it could have fees? You're seriously expecting to be charged every single time you switch carriers? SIM swapping isn't free, you still have to purchase a SIM card the first time.

All of the UK's major carriers (and most of the MVNOs) offer free SIMs.

I can put any of them into my iPhone and they work great.

I'm very opposed to this idea.

The main concern I have is that we have a lot of MVNOs here with a lot of interesting tariffs and things to offer consumers. Unfortunately, the iPhone is only available from the main 5 carriers plus a large MVNO backed by a Behemoth Supermarket. (You can get the phone unlocked of course).

I worry that the smaller MVNOs would be blocked out of a system like this - or that if they chose not to be a part of it, you couldn't use their network with such a device.
 
You purchase a sim card once. Most of the time I've purchased one its been a few dollars. How do we know the carrier won't charge every time we activate on the network? What about for switching from phone to phone on the same account/network? In the past cdma carriers charged activation fees when you wanted to change your phone, there's nothing preventing them from doing like that again.

Much like you only purchase a SIM once, you'd only activate this once. After that SIM information has been stored on the embedded SIM, it is in your phone and you don't have to request that information again, so there's no opportunity for the carrier to charge you again. The embedded SIM would function like a dual SIM phone, allowing you to switch between SIMs without changing cards without the same limitation on the number of SIMs you can physically fit into your phone.

There could be a chance of being charged for swapping virtual SIMs between phones if you have to request the information again, but I wouldn't assume that to be a given. I think your focus on the idea that you are going to somehow be ripped off is preventing you from seeing the forest for the trees. You can't see the big picture, you can't see how this could benefit you because you are too focussed on an assumption you've made.
 
I worry that the smaller MVNOs would be blocked out of a system like this - or that if they chose not to be a part of it, you couldn't use their network with such a device.

Why would they be blocked out and why would they choose to not be a part of it?
 
so the state of the industry is made worse, yet again, by the irrational greed of those in charge.

hooray free market.

every reason they have to be against it is so transparently self-serving. it's like the goddam RIAA.
 
All of the UK's major carriers (and most of the MVNOs) offer free SIMs.

I can put any of them into my iPhone and they work great.

....

Is this true? I thought even in UK you had to specifically request an unlocked phone, and pay more for it.

But whatever. The situation in the US is much worse. I've just gone through buying an unlocked phone and a mifi, and trying to get service for them both. For the phone, the cheapest service I could find is T-Mobile prepaid. They were happy to give me a SIM, but I had to buy an activation kit for $10 - from the store. I tried to buy it on their web site, where it seems to be cheaper, but couldn't ever get it to the checkout stage.

I've seen people claim that ATT will give them a SIM. I explored this for the mifi -- a GSM mifi exists, and should be usable on both TMobile and ATT. But the ATT people told me they **would not** sell me a SIM for use in an unlocked mifi unit. They said I had to buy something locked to ATT, and get a monthly contract. Quite bizarre, considering the existence of iPads -- they said an iPad comes with a SIM, and it wasn't possible to get service otherwise. They were probably wrong, but they certainly believed it. I ended up with a mifi from Virgin, which is locked, I think. And CDMA. It can't be transferred to Verizon.

I'd be much happier giving control to Apple, who, I believe, will quite happily enable switching from one carrier to any other. In the US, Apple is much more on my side than the phone companies. That may not be true elsewhere, but in the US the phone companies are absolutely awful.
 
Much like you only purchase a SIM once, you'd only activate this once. After that SIM information has been stored on the embedded SIM, it is in your phone and you don't have to request that information again, so there's no opportunity for the carrier to charge you again. The embedded SIM would function like a dual SIM phone, allowing you to switch between SIMs without changing cards without the same limitation on the number of SIMs you can physically fit into your phone.

There could be a chance of being charged for swapping virtual SIMs between phones if you have to request the information again, but I wouldn't assume that to be a given. I think your focus on the idea that you are going to somehow be ripped off is preventing you from seeing the forest for the trees. You can't see the big picture, you can't see how this could benefit you because you are too focussed on an assumption you've made.

You are describing as if a system has already been designed.. which it has not.

Anyway, they could design it, and it could be done perfectly. But at the end of the day an element of control is out of the consumer's hand and into the carrier's hand.

Tell me though, I want to see the big picture and how it will benefit me. Assuming the whole new sim-less system works, and carriers let us connect and swap devices without issue. What benefit do I gain?
 
Is this true? I thought even in UK you had to specifically request an unlocked phone, and pay more for it.

It depends. With several of the carriers, with the exception of the iPhone, none of their contract phones are locked.

Most networks let you unlock phones (either after a certain period in the contract or for a small fee). The iPhone can be unlocked in this way if purchased from a carrier (subsidised).
 
Tell me though, I want to see the big picture and how it will benefit me. Assuming the whole new sim-less system works, and carriers let us connect and swap devices without issue. What benefit do I gain?

This is the part I'm struggling with.

If it's implemented in the best possible way (reliable from a technical standpoint, supported by all carriers, no cost for utilising the service etc.) I don't see what we, the consumer have to gain.
 
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Much like you only purchase a SIM once, you'd only activate this once. After that SIM information has been stored on the embedded SIM, it is in your phone and you don't have to request that information again, so there's no opportunity for the carrier to charge you again. The embedded SIM would function like a dual SIM phone, allowing you to switch between SIMs without changing cards without the same limitation on the number of SIMs you can physically fit into your phone.

But again, it won't allow you to simply switch phones without going through the provisioning system again, something the carrier might decide to charge for, not even allow, or force you to call.

There's just too many ifs and maybes about this to go ahead and claim this is all for the benefit of the consumer.
 
Maybe I'm crazy, but I like being able to take out my SIM card and put in another one, if I want. Removable stuff seems like more power for the user, to me. Unless apple intended to give me the software that could totally reprogram my embedded SIM (doubtful).
 
I just think it is crazy that people believe they will die if their cell phone breaks.

i dont have a land line becuase its a rip off and there are no payphones anywhere NEAR my house, if my cell breaks im 90% screwed, (i still have skype but with no DID#)
 
Nothing but PURE WIN for consumers here folks. Apple I am sad to see you backing off this technology.

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way.

PURE WIN.
 
Nothing but PURE WIN for consumers here folks. Apple I am sad to see you backing off this technology.

If you don't see it that way I'm sorry but your not understanding the article.

PURE WIN.

I understand the article - I'm on the GSMA mailing list.

You aren't giving any reasons to support your argument, so nobody can take you seriously.
 
You are describing as if a system has already been designed.. which it has not.

Anyway, they could design it, and it could be done perfectly. But at the end of the day an element of control is out of the consumer's hand and into the carrier's hand.

Tell me though, I want to see the big picture and how it will benefit me. Assuming the whole new sim-less system works, and carriers let us connect and swap devices without issue. What benefit do I gain?

You are saying this "undesigned" system is bad because you've already decided that you are going to get screwed by it. I have no idea why you think that viewpoint is the most reasonable one.

I can't explain how this system would work to to you because you've already shut the side of your brain that's responsible for logical thought off, but here it goes anyway: Imagine every SIM card in the world. Now imagine that they all fit in your phone. That's the potential of this. You're right, we do have to see how it plays out and how it's implemented, but arguing from the point of view that you're going to get screwed and thus there is no way you can benefit from this is stupid.
 
Potential reasons:

- Very high cost to implement
- Artificial restrictions on carriers able to participate in the system
- Impact on other devices that don't use the system

-Assumption
-Irrational assumption made out of fear because this is an Apple story (but embedded SIMs are a GSMA initiative)
-They'd continue to function in the same way that they always have
 
-Assumption
-Irrational assumption made out of fear because this is an Apple story (but embedded SIMs are a GSMA initiative)
-They'd continue to function in the same way that they always have

Wait, you're calling people out on assumptions, yet all you have to go on for your side of the argument is assumptions. :rolleyes:
 
Nothing but PURE WIN for consumers here folks. Apple I am sad to see you backing off this technology.

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way.

PURE WIN.

Huh?! How is this "pure win?"

It means that if you travel with your iPhone, you can't buy and use local pre-paid SIMs, even if your iPhone is unlocked. You'll be stuck with roaming charges and $2 per minute calls.

Also, as other have pointed out, it means that Apple and the service providers can enforce minimum contract terms (say, you are required to pay $70 for a data plan).

It's a terrible idea for consumers, and I am sorry you don't see it for what it really is.
 
You're again conveniently forgetting the phone swapping arguments. Not all SIM swapping is about changing carriers and changing the SIM in a phone. It might be about switching the phone you use your SIM in to.

The fact is, this gives control to Apple, it gives control to the carriers that oversee the provisioning systems, but it sure as heck takes a lot of control away from consumers for ... what benefits exactly ?

There are too many questions unanswered to blindly call this a good move. There are a lot of lost benefits however that warrant questioning this.

I don't know anyone who has ever switched their SIM from phone to phone the way you describe, which is interesting because you seem to be claiming it's an important feature that everyone uses (judging by your tone).

I don't doubt someone somewhere does it, but it certainly isn't a matter of course for many very good reasons. One of them being that switching the SIM doesn't carry over all, or even most of or much of, your data. Far less than half of my contacts and other data are stored on my SIM. If my phone crapped out or the battery ran out and I had an emergency that required me to use a phone, I'd... use the phone in my office. Or a phone of someone I was with. Everyone I know has, essentially, unlimited voice these days. Even if it's not actually unlimited, they use it so little that they're never close to running out. Nobody cares if I use one of their minutes for some emergency (which has happened one time in the last ten years).

I also find this argument ridiculous: "But switching with a built-in SIM will make you vulnerable to carrier fees!" News flash: carriers already track which phone your SIM is in, and if they want to charge a fee to let you switch it they will (some do in the U.S., though thankfully less as time goes on). In places where such fees are already outlawed, they still will be, and in other places, like the U.S., there is, and will continue to be, pressure away from not toward these fees.

I just don't see that SIM-switching has any real benefit (as noted by someone else, it makes roaming in Europe a PITA because you have to have the different SIMS around and hope you don't lose them), and it has some definite drawbacks from both the consumer side--having to worry about the different SIMS for traveling--and the handset-maker side--increased design complexity, cost, and fragility.
 
Huh?! How is this "pure win?"

It means that if you travel with your iPhone, you can't buy and use local pre-paid SIMs, even if your iPhone is unlocked. You'll be stuck with roaming charges and $2 per minute calls.

Also, as other have pointed out, it means that Apple and the service providers can enforce minimum contract terms (say, you are required to pay $70 for a data plan).

It's a terrible idea for consumers, and I am sorry you don't see it for what it really is.

Explain exactly why carriers can't do those things with removable SIMS?

You'll have a hard time of it, because they can and do.
 
what a ***** idea.. so now i have to take a laptop with me every time i want to change a carrier ? say i travel from the uk to egypt. how do i switch over to an egyptian carrier without my laptop ? useless ..
 
I don't know anyone who has ever switched their SIM from phone to phone the way you describe, which is interesting because you seem to be claiming it's an important feature that everyone uses (judging by your tone).

I know myself. I've done it. Heck, I recently did it with my iPhone because something was wonkers on my GF's iPhone and they were claiming a defective SIM. I popped it into my iPhone and everything worked like a charm, which showed my carrier the problem was the handset, not the SIM.

I used it when I had to swap my iPhone out when the mute switch gave out, popped my SIM into an older phone while my iPhone was being "serviced".

I used it a few times when I forgot to charge my phone and was waiting for an important call while on the road, used my friend's phone, popped my SIM in, forwarded my calls to his phone and put his SIM back. I took my call when it rang on his phone that day.

Yes, swapping a SIM phone to phone is practical. What benefits of the SIMless phone outweight the loss of all these ? Seriously ? If I wanted a SIMless phone, I'd be on a CDMA carrier. I don't get it, all you SIMless lovers can get a SIMless phone already.
 
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