Charging/Power issues in 2011 when gaming/high load?

[GuitarG20]

I called AC and they said this is not normal, and set me a genius visit.

I think this is one of those classic times when you can ignore AC. Either they are flat out lying, or the person you talked to just didn't know. If you still don't believe me: MBP power draw.

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are you THAT blinded by fanboyism. I have had MANY laptops over the last many years, and a few Apple laptops as well, and NOT A SINGLE ONE ever did that. If the AC adapter cannot power the laptop on its own, then there is something wrong, and since apple has not stated this is how its supposed to be(in fact, they have been totally silent on the issue altogether, which means that something is NOT working as intended), its not working properly. What if you were to use it under heavy load for 10 hours? the battery would deplete, and the laptop would shut off. This isnt normal, and since the laptop can draw more than the inverter can make, this can potentially damage the charger by overvoltaging it(drawing too much, or trying too), and is a fire hazard, and isnt even in spec with the UL testing done(which rated it to power a max of 85 watts, and anything more than that, and its unsafe). maybe you should become more informed and look up some of this stuff for yourself. Get out from behind the fanboy blinders for once, and quit spreading potentially dangerous information. You do know, that if anyones house starts on fire because of your bad advice, you can be held liable, right? do some fact checking before you post.

I'm just gonna comment on the things I take issue with in this.

1) What data do you have to back that up? My old HP used to draw from both the battery and the cord, and my MBP does it as well under full load. Also, like GGJ and I have said, and has been tested (same link as above), they can use more TDP volts than the charger supplies.

2) True. However, I know of 0 cases where someone knowingly ran a laptop under full load (the only case where the MBP does this) for any extended period of time. If they needed something to handle such a load, they should buy a desktop, which can supply multiples more watts.

3) Last time I checked, the PSU's were self-regulating. As long as you supply the correct voltage in, they won't overvolt. I'm not sure how your statement even makes sense.

4) You're being a little ridiculous. Calm down, and listen to the advice given in the proof we've posted. You're borderline trolling with that last part.

 

[Chubbysumo]

I think this is one of those classic times when you can ignore AC. Either they are flat out lying, or the person you talked to just didn't know. If you still don't believe me: MBP power draw.

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I'm just gonna comment on the things I take issue with in this.

1) What data do you have to back that up? My old HP used to draw from both the battery and the cord, and my MBP does it as well under full load. Also, like GGJ and I have said, and has been tested (same link as above), they can use more TDP volts than the charger supplies.

2) True. However, I know of 0 cases where someone knowingly ran a laptop under full load (the only case where the MBP does this) for any extended period of time. If they needed something to handle such a load, they should buy a desktop, which can supply multiples more watts.

3) Last time I checked, the PSU's were self-regulating. As long as you supply the correct voltage in, they won't overvolt. I'm not sure how your statement even makes sense.

4) You're being a little ridiculous. Calm down, and listen to the advice given in the proof we've posted. You're borderline trolling with that last part.

Third party liabilty is law, and has been upheld, even to forum posts. While, yes, the PSUs may be self regulating, this does not mean that it cannot get overdrawn, and cause a potential hazard. For 20+ years experience, I have never seen a laptop do this, not even HPs, which are known for using an underpowered inverter. TDP is thermal Design power, and its the amount of HEAT that the CPU will put out, not the amount of wattage that it will draw. For example, my Intel C2D(old laptop) is rated at a 35TDP, but is able to draw up to 60 watts(older Asus high performance custom laptop).
all about TDP>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power

This laptop CPU is capable of(and I have seen it) draw as much as 50 watts for the i5 dual core, and the i7 quad core is a hair more, at 70 watts. That leaves the rest of that 85 watts to power the screen, keyboard, and everything else on it, plus the USB, and whatever else you have plugged in. Again, this is NOT normal behavior, and caution should be taken, as the PSU SHOULD prevent overdrawing, but it may not, which would cause to to overheat.

 

[GuitarG20]

Third party liabilty is law, and has been upheld, even to forum posts. While, yes, the PSUs may be self regulating, this does not mean that it cannot get overdrawn, and cause a potential hazard. For 20+ years experience, I have never seen a laptop do this, not even HPs, which are known for using an underpowered inverter. TDP is thermal Design power, and its the amount of HEAT that the CPU will put out, not the amount of wattage that it will draw. For example, my Intel C2D(old laptop) is rated at a 35TDP, but is able to draw up to 60 watts(older Asus high performance custom laptop).
all about TDP>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power

This laptop CPU is capable of(and I have seen it) draw as much as 50 watts for the i5 dual core, and the i7 quad core is a hair more, at 70 watts. That leaves the rest of that 85 watts to power the screen, keyboard, and everything else on it, plus the USB, and whatever else you have plugged in. Again, this is NOT normal behavior, and caution should be taken, as the PSU SHOULD prevent overdrawing, but it may not, which would cause to to overheat.

you're right about my terminology. it's always confused me, so thanks for the information.

but that doesn't change the fact that power draw has been proven to be up to 93W at full load. and i have also experienced a situation where my MBP was using the full 85W from the charger and an unspecified amount from the battery. leading me to believe that it's not unusual or necessarily a bad thing. Apple probably knew this and just designed their product to be able to handle it. They are a company known for considering and adjusting design, and then later not telling the consumer that they considered them, after all.

 

[GGJstudios]

are you THAT blinded by fanboyism.

Before you go any farther, take a minute to read the Forum Rules so you don't get yourself in trouble. I'm not a boy of any kind and I have no allegiance to any company.... except Harley-Davidson!

I have had MANY laptops over the last many years, and a few Apple laptops as well, and NOT A SINGLE ONE ever did that.

Then you lack the proper experience to know about this, as those who have had MacBook Pros or MacBooks and run games or intensive apps already have experienced this. It's common knowledge and documented by Apple.

If the AC adapter cannot power the laptop on its own, then there is something wrong

Only in your opinion. That's the way Apple chose to design it. While you can disagree with their design, it doesn't change the fact that it's working as Apple designed it.

since apple has not stated this is how its supposed to be(in fact, they have been totally silent on the issue altogether, which means that something is NOT working as intended),

That's not true. They have not been silent. I already quoted what they said.

What if you were to use it under heavy load for 10 hours? the battery would deplete, and the laptop would shut off.

Exactly. And that has happened. If you'd spend some time reading this forum, you would know this already.

This isnt normal, and since the laptop can draw more than the inverter can make, this can potentially damage the charger by overvoltaging it(drawing too much, or trying too), and is a fire hazard, and isnt even in spec with the UL testing done(which rated it to power a max of 85 watts, and anything more than that, and its unsafe).

Again, you post nonsense. Apparently, you don't understand how electricity, chargers and batteries work. There is nothing remotely unsafe about how Macs work like this.

You do know, that if anyones house starts on fire because of your bad advice, you can be held liable, right?

Not only do you not understand the facts of this topic, you also don't understand the law.

For 20+ years experience,

The fact that you find the need to repeat that so often bespeaks a self-confidence issue. 20 years experience can be a learning curve for 1 year, followed by 19 years of repetition. How long you have or haven't had experience with computers is irrelevant. Facts are facts. Many of your statements are completely false and misleading.

 

[Chubbysumo]

Before you go any farther, take a minute to read the Forum Rules so you don't get yourself in trouble. I'm not a boy of any kind and I have no allegiance to any company.... except Harley-Davidson!
Not only do you not understand the facts of this topic, you also don't understand the law.

I like harleys too, and for that +1, but its hard to hide frustration when so much goes around the internet that is incorrect. Third party liability is law in 48 out of 50 states. For example: If i was a bartender, and I served someone a drink, and then they go out and get into an accident and kill someone, because I was the last one to serve them a drink, I am liable for that death as much as them, and can be sued(as well as the bar) for it. If you give bad advice, and someone follows it, and then gets injured, you are liable for that piece of advice, and their injuries. You should look up liability laws in your state, but since forums are "in print" everyone can see what you put up. If its verbal, its just hearsay or really just a he said she said situation, but since forums and places like this are easy to go back and look at, you could be held liable if someones house burns down.

Again, this is not normal behavior, and is a lack of planning or testing on Apples part. I would bet that sometime in the later half of the year, they will issue a recall or a fix(by underclocking the CPU/GPU) to prevent this. Power wise, this would result in slightly different voltages of power running thru the laptop, which could also be a source of concern. It may be "well documented" but it does not mean its functioning as intended. Apple has always been slow to admit flaws or problems with its products(look how long it took before they were forced to issue a recall to the faulty batteries in the powerbooks, and that was very well documented). This is typical apple, and always has been. Check back in 5 months, and see what apple has to say about it then.
I am simply urging caution. As far as I am aware, this is not normal behavior for any other Apple, or otherwise laptop. If you grab your inverter, and its too hot to touch, or the charging port becomes hot, then you need to stop using it and contact apple. They can get warm, and warm is okay, but getting hot is not. I would rather not see some persons house catch fire, or their lap burned because of them deciding to throw caution out the window, especially on a subject(laptop power inverters) that is consistently in the news and various other forums for causing fires and burns.

 

[GGJstudios]

As far as I am aware...

That's the first thing you've said that I can agree with. Your statements are based on your own knowledge and/or experience, which obviously doesn't include the situation being discussed in this thread. Because it's new to you and you may disagree with it does not negate the fact that it is, indeed, working as Apple designed it, and is no cause for alarm. It is not hazardous in any way. While your attempts to advise caution are commendable, the extreme and inaccurate claims in your posts suggest that some caution and careful thought is appropriate on your part before posting. By the way, welcome to the forum!

 

[Chubbysumo]

That's the first thing you've said that I can agree with. Your statements are based on your own knowledge and/or experience, which obviously doesn't include the situation being discussed in this thread. Because it's new to you and you may disagree with it does not negate the fact that it is, indeed, working as Apple designed it, and is no cause for alarm. It is not hazardous in any way. While your attempts to advise caution are commendable, the extreme and inaccurate claims in your posts suggest that some caution and careful thought is appropriate on your part before posting. By the way, welcome to the forum!

look around the internets, and you can find me(you really dont have to look to far or hard, just never had a macrumor account). I have never seen a laptop that does this, and as my knowledge goes, this could cause power and voltage instabilities to the whole system, which could damage the laptop. I would still call and ask apple support, to see if thats how its supposed to be, and let them have at it. Where exactly is it documented by apple that this is normal(just curious, have not seen a direct link to someone representing apple, or apple forums saying this is normal). I just want to point out, that the anandtech link, showing the power draw at 93 watts was taken from a wall plugged watt meter, at the charger, which means it was drawing 93 watts from an 85 watt rated charger.
oh, and thanks. i am sure endless frustration abounds in here, as it does lots of other places, but i look forward to adding another site under my name(considering getting it trademarked because I have used it for so long).

 

[Signal-11]

chubbysumo, you are not as well informed nor as experienced in this subject as you believe yourself to be.

While this is not a common issue, it is not rare enough to be unknown for any high end laptop. I have had this issue with ThinkPads, HP and Panasonic Toughbook mobile workstations. Many, if not most mobile workstation class computers (and for that matter, most high end consumer laptops) are capable exceeding the power that the AC adapter is rated to provide.

Almost all notebooks are designed to draw on the battery to make up for this difference.

This is well known to any organization that deploys laptops that may run under high load for extended periods of time in remote locations - if high power AC adapters are not are not available and/or are not on the packing list, total load is not to exceed X for Y period of time under Z circumstance.

If you do not believe me, then just Google various high end laptop/mobile workstation models and TDP, battery drain, etc.

 

[GGJstudios]

I have never seen a laptop that does this

Then by your own admission, you are unqualified to speak to this issue, having had no experience with it. Rather than marching into a forum, throwing your "20 years" around and claiming that others don't know what they're talking about, you would do well to open your mind and learn, so you'll be better qualified to teach.

Where exactly is it documented by apple that this is normal(just curious, have not seen a direct link to someone representing apple, or apple forums saying this is normal).

Hopefully, you'll pay attention this time. From: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2332:

If the battery is removed from a MacBook or MacBook Pro, the computer will automatically reduce the processor speed. This prevents the computer from shutting down if it demands more power than the A/C adaptor alone can provide.

This clearly shows that Apple expects there will be times when the Mac may require more power than the adapter can provide, so it draws from both battery and the adapter.

Ii look forward to adding another site under my name(considering getting it trademarked because I have used it for so long).

While you busy yourself with "adding another site under your name" or getting trademarks, many of us in this forum are more concerned with educating and helping those who come here with questions or problems. To that end we debunk myths, challenge falsehoods and correct misinformation, so those who are new to Macs won't be misled.

look around the internets, and you can find me(you really dont have to look to far or hard, just never had a macrumor account).

I put zero credence in internet visibility, but did a couple searches on a whim. I post them without commentary.

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