I don't think it has the possibility to include DRM. Also, .mp4 sounds like an upgrade .mp3, so people would be framiliar with the name, whereas .ogg would be a new filename.
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Clarification of MPEG 4, AAC and Apple
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.ogg
the ogg format has been around for a while, but only familiar with a few people. i've never tried it, but as it's been said, it sounds like an upgrade and people are familiar with mp3. my grandparents know what they are for gosh sake!
the ogg format has been around for a while, but only familiar with a few people. i've never tried it, but as it's been said, it sounds like an upgrade and people are familiar with mp3. my grandparents know what they are for gosh sake!
It would be nice if they did, but i was more interested in how .ogg compared to mp3 and AAC on a technicial side, forgetting DRM for the moment.
if someone has the time, could they do a quality test or something like that for mp3 mp4 and .ogg? i want to know how much better it is, and how much of a difference it is in the file size.
With something as subjective as audio quality -- it's going to be hard to get a quantitative "how much better" one is than the next.
There was one study that placed ogg higher than AAC in quality.... but until Apple offers ogg as a simple option in iTunes/iPod as easy as mp3 or AAC (presumably will be) -- then it's a moot point for me.
If you really care about it, you should encode your favorite songs in each format. Then decompress them to a raw AIFF file. Have a friend randomize them and play them on the same hardware, but not tell you which one is which.
arn
Who wants a trained ear??
For everyone that has posted about how MP3 sounds like crap at even 256+ how about this: Maybe not all of us want a trained ear. I rip mp3 at 192 right now because I heard something nasty in one track a couple of years ago, but it is likely that there is a lot of my collection that could be ripped at 128 and I wouldn't even notice. If my ear were trained to hear it, I wouldn't enjoy my music except by putting the bloody CDs in the drive to listen to them!
If you are really so unhappy about mp3 at 256+, then you should be happy that aac is here. It gives better performance than mp3, so your 320 aacs outta sound better than your 320 mp3s. And if it doesn't, then what loss is that to you =).
Let the rest of us with normal ears just revel in the joy that will be (at least for us) CD quality audio at 1/2 - 2/3 the previous file size.
For everyone that has posted about how MP3 sounds like crap at even 256+ how about this: Maybe not all of us want a trained ear. I rip mp3 at 192 right now because I heard something nasty in one track a couple of years ago, but it is likely that there is a lot of my collection that could be ripped at 128 and I wouldn't even notice. If my ear were trained to hear it, I wouldn't enjoy my music except by putting the bloody CDs in the drive to listen to them!
If you are really so unhappy about mp3 at 256+, then you should be happy that aac is here. It gives better performance than mp3, so your 320 aacs outta sound better than your 320 mp3s. And if it doesn't, then what loss is that to you =).
Let the rest of us with normal ears just revel in the joy that will be (at least for us) CD quality audio at 1/2 - 2/3 the previous file size.
Re: Who wants a trained ear??
that's exactly right
if you are too busy paying attention to the bit rate of the music, then you shouldn't even be allowed to listen to it. 256 takes up a lot of space, and is very good, but i don't need trained ears to enjoy music
that's exactly right
if you are too busy paying attention to the bit rate of the music, then you shouldn't even be allowed to listen to it. 256 takes up a lot of space, and is very good, but i don't need trained ears to enjoy music
Re: Re: Who wants a trained ear??
Whell then why Do U have a MAC???? why not use windows instead? Why would you want to be a lemming?? "got steep cliff?" see that the prob you don't care . . . only when you'll need hearin' aids, the shoulda coulda woulda will come back to bite you in the ass hard. if there is anything left off it from other things that come back . . .from half assin' it!!!!!!
been there, done it, lesson learned . . . . ah life what an experience!!!!
Whell then why Do U have a MAC???? why not use windows instead? Why would you want to be a lemming?? "got steep cliff?" see that the prob you don't care . . . only when you'll need hearin' aids, the shoulda coulda woulda will come back to bite you in the ass hard. if there is anything left off it from other things that come back . . .from half assin' it!!!!!!
been there, done it, lesson learned . . . . ah life what an experience!!!!
Re: Re: Re: Who wants a trained ear??
Don't make this a mac vs pc thing, it's not and is far, far from it. I enjoy my music just fine without trying to listen for all the compression artifacts that a trained ear may or may not hear. I don't have the time or will to look for them. I want my music to just work (sounds familiar does it not?). And my music works a lot better as 5MB mp3 files than it does as 50MB aiff files coming off a CD. I predict that I will enjoy much more music in the same amount of space as 3MB aac files. Either way being aware of the compression artifacts doesn't do that for me, but instead makes me annoyed that there isn't a better way (I know that sounds familiar...
). If you don't like your music compressed, then don't compress it - copy the audio files from the CD to your 500GB HD. But don't tell me that because I like compressed audio that I'm a lemming or that I have a tin ear because I won't care - I'll just keep on ripping my mp3s/aacs.
Don't make this a mac vs pc thing, it's not and is far, far from it. I enjoy my music just fine without trying to listen for all the compression artifacts that a trained ear may or may not hear. I don't have the time or will to look for them. I want my music to just work (sounds familiar does it not?). And my music works a lot better as 5MB mp3 files than it does as 50MB aiff files coming off a CD. I predict that I will enjoy much more music in the same amount of space as 3MB aac files. Either way being aware of the compression artifacts doesn't do that for me, but instead makes me annoyed that there isn't a better way (I know that sounds familiar...
). If you don't like your music compressed, then don't compress it - copy the audio files from the CD to your 500GB HD. But don't tell me that because I like compressed audio that I'm a lemming or that I have a tin ear because I won't care - I'll just keep on ripping my mp3s/aacs.Re: Is mp4, AAC? no
Ummm.. be careful.. there is no such thing as "MP4".
More specifically, the thread author stated that AAC is the audio track of the video standard known as MPEG4.
I believe MPEG4 is the format video DVDs are encoded in. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Panasonic using AAC? me not know...
Ummm.. be careful.. there is no such thing as "MP4".
More specifically, the thread author stated that AAC is the audio track of the video standard known as MPEG4.
I believe MPEG4 is the format video DVDs are encoded in. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Panasonic using AAC? me not know...
Re: Re: Is mp4, AAC? no
An interesting note, if you use Quicktime to export an audio file to MPEG-4, AAC format, by default it gives it an .mp4 file name extension.
DVD's are in MPEG2, their audio portion is in Dolby AC3 (AAC also is available under MPEG-2 but I don't know if DVD's use it)
An interesting note, if you use Quicktime to export an audio file to MPEG-4, AAC format, by default it gives it an .mp4 file name extension.
Okay, a little bit of background information about MPEG-4 and AAC.
The MPEG-4 standard was designed by the Motion Picture Experts Group, which is also responsible for MPEG-1 and MPEG-2.
The group consists of many different companies who all work together to set standards. The companies all bring in specific parts which is then licensed to MPEG-LA. Other companies who want to use the MPEG standard can then take a license for the complete standard from MPEG-LA, who makes sure every company that contributed to the standard gets paid. For example: The QuickTime container format is used by the Motion Picture Experts Group as the official MPEG-4 container format.
** updated (begin) **
MP3 is actually called MPEG Layer 3 and is part of the MPEG-1 specifications. MPEG-1 consists of three different audio compression formats called Layer 1, 2 and 3 a.k.a. MP1, MP2 and MP3.
There are many differences between the Layer 1, 2 and 3. The higher the Layer, the more complex the format is, the less space it takes to store a piece of audio of the same length. So MP3 is more complex than MP2, which in its turn is more complex than MP1. MP3 offers the best compression.
All of the different Layers were based on already existing technologies created by many different companies.
The MP1 format is also known as PASC, which was used by Philips for their failed DCC (digital compact cassette).
The MP2 format is also known as MUSICAM and is mostly known from the usage on VCDs and SVCDs.
The MP3 format was contributed to the Motion Picture Experts Group by Fraunhoffer IIS and Thomson (known in the US as RCA). The format was originally created as part of EUREKA, a european project for digital audio broadcasting (DAB).
MPEG Layer 4 does not exist
** updated (end) **
The MPEG-2 format is mostly known from DVDs. The DVD forum (a different group of movie studios and consumer electronics manufacturers) decided base their DVDs on the MPEG-2 standard. But the DVD standard is not the same as the MPEG-2 standard. There are many other products which uses the MPEG-2 standard such as digital set-top boxes.
** updated (begin) **
With the introduction of MPEG-2 a new audio formats was introduced as well, but at the time it wasn't used much. The format is called AAC and was created by Fraunhoffer IIS in collaboration with Dolby, Sony and AT&T. This format is now refered to as MPEG-2 AAC.
The older Layer 1 - Layer 3 formats (MP1-MP3) were updated and are also part of the MPEG-2 standard. The MPEG-2 Layers are backwards compatible with MPEG-1. The only difference between the MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 versions are the number of channels that are supported.
On DVDs MPEG-2 is mostly used together with the AC-3 codec, developed by Dolby, but the AC-3 codec isn't part of the MPEG-2 standard. The DVD forum decided to deviate from the standard because of licensing issues. The AC-3 format was already a widely used format for digital audio in theaters. So DVDs are not 100% compatible with the MPEG-2 standard, but it is based on it.
** updated (end) **
The MPEG-4 format is the latest standard set by the Motion Picture Experts Group. MPEG-4 is a still expanding standard which is become more and more populair. Because Apple contributed their QuickTime container format they get paid for every MPEG-4 license sold, which is probably also one of the reasons they want to see this standard become populair. The MPEG-4 standard is pretty large and has a many different ways to compress both audio and video.
The preferred way to compress audio according to the MPEG-4 standard is by using the AAC format. Please note, this isn´t the same AAC as using in the MPEG-2 standard, the official name for the *new* AAC is MPEG-2/4 AAC. After AAC was introduced in MPEG-2, the creators made a number of improvements to make the quality even better. AAC isn't the only MPEG-4 audio format, other audio standards such as the old MPEG Layer 3 (MP3) are still allowed.
Confused already? No... don't worry you will be in a minute.
As I mentioned already the MPEG-4 container format is based on QuickTime. But what is exactly a container format? Well, think of it as a box in which you can store different things. The box contains a couple of audio tracks, a video track or possible even subtitles. The box is just a small part of the MPEG-4 standard, but it describes how all these different formats can be mixed into one little neat file.
The older MPEG standards also used a container format called .mpg, but it was very different from the MPEG-4 container format. Basically every movie file that also included audio is placed in a container format, for example .mov, .avi or even .rm.
Without a container format you would need a couple of different files to store all the information. For example instead of a simple .mpg file on a VCD disc, you would have an .mp2 file for the audio and a .mpv file for the video.
An .mp3 is nothing more than a MP3 track which isn't placed inside the .mpg container format.
Because MP3 became very popular the Motion Picture Experts Group decided to give their new MPEG-4 standard a boost by using .mp4 as the official extension for the MPEG-4 container format. So if you see a file ending with the extension .mp4 it will be a MPEG-4 file.
Unlike an .mp3 file which is just an audio track, the .mp4 file is an container format, so it can contain video and/or audio. Most likely AAC would be used to encode the audio, but that is not always the case. Basically you can't be sure what the .mp4 file contains without opening it. It could be very possible the .mp4 file contains a single MP3 audio track.
Just like MP3 and .mp3 files, you can store AAC audio tracks without using the MPEG-4 container format. These files can be recognised by the .aac extension.
The MPEG-4 standard was designed by the Motion Picture Experts Group, which is also responsible for MPEG-1 and MPEG-2.
The group consists of many different companies who all work together to set standards. The companies all bring in specific parts which is then licensed to MPEG-LA. Other companies who want to use the MPEG standard can then take a license for the complete standard from MPEG-LA, who makes sure every company that contributed to the standard gets paid. For example: The QuickTime container format is used by the Motion Picture Experts Group as the official MPEG-4 container format.
** updated (begin) **
MP3 is actually called MPEG Layer 3 and is part of the MPEG-1 specifications. MPEG-1 consists of three different audio compression formats called Layer 1, 2 and 3 a.k.a. MP1, MP2 and MP3.
There are many differences between the Layer 1, 2 and 3. The higher the Layer, the more complex the format is, the less space it takes to store a piece of audio of the same length. So MP3 is more complex than MP2, which in its turn is more complex than MP1. MP3 offers the best compression.
All of the different Layers were based on already existing technologies created by many different companies.
The MP1 format is also known as PASC, which was used by Philips for their failed DCC (digital compact cassette).
The MP2 format is also known as MUSICAM and is mostly known from the usage on VCDs and SVCDs.
The MP3 format was contributed to the Motion Picture Experts Group by Fraunhoffer IIS and Thomson (known in the US as RCA). The format was originally created as part of EUREKA, a european project for digital audio broadcasting (DAB).
MPEG Layer 4 does not exist
** updated (end) **
The MPEG-2 format is mostly known from DVDs. The DVD forum (a different group of movie studios and consumer electronics manufacturers) decided base their DVDs on the MPEG-2 standard. But the DVD standard is not the same as the MPEG-2 standard. There are many other products which uses the MPEG-2 standard such as digital set-top boxes.
** updated (begin) **
With the introduction of MPEG-2 a new audio formats was introduced as well, but at the time it wasn't used much. The format is called AAC and was created by Fraunhoffer IIS in collaboration with Dolby, Sony and AT&T. This format is now refered to as MPEG-2 AAC.
The older Layer 1 - Layer 3 formats (MP1-MP3) were updated and are also part of the MPEG-2 standard. The MPEG-2 Layers are backwards compatible with MPEG-1. The only difference between the MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 versions are the number of channels that are supported.
On DVDs MPEG-2 is mostly used together with the AC-3 codec, developed by Dolby, but the AC-3 codec isn't part of the MPEG-2 standard. The DVD forum decided to deviate from the standard because of licensing issues. The AC-3 format was already a widely used format for digital audio in theaters. So DVDs are not 100% compatible with the MPEG-2 standard, but it is based on it.
** updated (end) **
The MPEG-4 format is the latest standard set by the Motion Picture Experts Group. MPEG-4 is a still expanding standard which is become more and more populair. Because Apple contributed their QuickTime container format they get paid for every MPEG-4 license sold, which is probably also one of the reasons they want to see this standard become populair. The MPEG-4 standard is pretty large and has a many different ways to compress both audio and video.
The preferred way to compress audio according to the MPEG-4 standard is by using the AAC format. Please note, this isn´t the same AAC as using in the MPEG-2 standard, the official name for the *new* AAC is MPEG-2/4 AAC. After AAC was introduced in MPEG-2, the creators made a number of improvements to make the quality even better. AAC isn't the only MPEG-4 audio format, other audio standards such as the old MPEG Layer 3 (MP3) are still allowed.
Confused already? No... don't worry you will be in a minute.
As I mentioned already the MPEG-4 container format is based on QuickTime. But what is exactly a container format? Well, think of it as a box in which you can store different things. The box contains a couple of audio tracks, a video track or possible even subtitles. The box is just a small part of the MPEG-4 standard, but it describes how all these different formats can be mixed into one little neat file.
The older MPEG standards also used a container format called .mpg, but it was very different from the MPEG-4 container format. Basically every movie file that also included audio is placed in a container format, for example .mov, .avi or even .rm.
Without a container format you would need a couple of different files to store all the information. For example instead of a simple .mpg file on a VCD disc, you would have an .mp2 file for the audio and a .mpv file for the video.
An .mp3 is nothing more than a MP3 track which isn't placed inside the .mpg container format.
Because MP3 became very popular the Motion Picture Experts Group decided to give their new MPEG-4 standard a boost by using .mp4 as the official extension for the MPEG-4 container format. So if you see a file ending with the extension .mp4 it will be a MPEG-4 file.
Unlike an .mp3 file which is just an audio track, the .mp4 file is an container format, so it can contain video and/or audio. Most likely AAC would be used to encode the audio, but that is not always the case. Basically you can't be sure what the .mp4 file contains without opening it. It could be very possible the .mp4 file contains a single MP3 audio track.
Just like MP3 and .mp3 files, you can store AAC audio tracks without using the MPEG-4 container format. These files can be recognised by the .aac extension.
If anyone cares, I did some tests comparing mp3, mp4, and ogg. The results were quite surprising, especially on the low bitrate end of things.
I compared all three formats at the lowest possible levels of 48kbps, using some music with a lot of high frequencies. Not surprisingly, the mp3 sounded horrible - like it was comming through a telephone or something. I didn't bother with VBR mp3's, so that might have helped a little, but i doubt too much. Keep in mind that I was using LAME as the encoder, hailed as the best.
Next came the AAC mp4 file, which is natively VBR. Using quicktime to encode the file at 48kbps, the sound quality was a step above the mp3, but nothing ground shattering. Most of the high frequencies were still missing, and it sounded like someone put a pillow in front of the speakers.
Last was the Ogg Vorbis at 48kbps, also natively VBR. Now this was the shocker - the ogg at this horribly low bitrate sounded 95% CD quality! Almost all of the high frequencies played, and although there was a very slight wavering effect in the background, it sounded remarkably good. As a matter of fact, i later did some tests, and it seems the 48kbps ogg sounded BETTER than a 128k mp3!
So who the heck would ever encode at 48kbps? Well, you're right. If you're planning to stick music on an ipod, there is no reason to skimp on the quality with all that space available. But these low bitrate files are useful in 2 areas - flash memory mp3 players, and online streaming. Unfortunatly, no flash memory mp3 players can play ogg files that I know of. It would be great if they did.
I DID do some tests with 128kbps files, using two different kinds of music - pop and classical. There was no real audiable difference between the three formats playing the pop music, although the mp3 did display some small artifacts. The ogg and mp4 sounded CD quality. The real test was with the classical. The mp3 file really showed its weakness here, and there was a *lot* of artifacts in the music, especially in the string instruments. The ogg and mp4 sounded perfect, although I think the ogg sounded a bit "cleaner".
If you want the audio samples I used to do this comparison, feel free to PM me and i'll be happy to send you the files.
I really do hope that Apple supports Ogg Vorbis, as I feel its time we started to move away from closed formats. Ogg is free and sounds far better than mp3, so I don't see why it shouldn't be used! And while Mp4 also sounds great, it requires royalty fees to use.