Clauses in AT&T Contracts Have Always Provided for Limits on 'Unlimited' Data Plans

[BiggAW]

I'll try to explain it simply for you. ATT offers a 5GB plan, agreed?
They also offer a 3GB plan, agreed?
They don't throttle them why do they NEED to throttle the unlimited plan, first they tried at the 2GB level now the 3GB level. I will concede the point that using the network at any level utilizes the bandwidth and therefore impacts the throughput, but so the 3 and 5 plan users. Where is the difference?

Because the more people they have using more bandwidth, the more it impacts the network. They figure that most people who sign up now won't pay for the 5GB. Also, why should you get 5GB for the price of 3GB?

Points you ignore:
3 and 5 GB plans not throttled at 2/3 GB levels why is ATT picking on the unlimited plan.

ATT offers an unlimited plan, why won't they honor it?

Why do you consider paying for a plan $30 a month an entitlement?

Even more simply why is using that what you are paying for abuse.

Here is a senario for you. Two users are connected to the same cell tower and both are using the same ammount of the data stream and have been for 15 days, one gets throttled at 3GB and the other is still going. Why? According to you and ATT the throttled user is abusing the network, why not the other user? I know the other user is paying $20 more for a 5GB plan is that clear enough for you? Stop being obtuse. If ATT does not want to honor what they are accepting payments for they should terminate all unlimited user's contracts but they won't because some may leave for greeener pastures. Perhaps it is not the unlimited user's sense of entitlement but your sense of jealousy on missing out on it. Your position is nothing more than WAH WAH it's not fair, he got the bigger piece! Anyways feel free to answer those questions or ignore them as you see fit.

Because you pay $20 MORE for the 5GB plan. If you want 5GB, PAY FOR IT. My grandfathered plan is still the best, I pay $25 minus corporate discount for virtually unlimited (2GB) of usage. If I go into extreme levels of usage a few months of the year, I am still ahead.

You feel entitled to continue to have your plan, and to continue to have the full speed for all of the data you're slurping, regardless of reality. You are guaranteed unlimited data at some speed until the end of your contract. Nothing more.

If AT&T was being fair, they would lock your entire account (and mine on FT850, the $25 2GB plan and $15 200MB plan) out of upgrades until we change all our plans to current, AND they would automatically switch us to the current plans once all of our lines were out of contract (in my case, FT700, 300MB and 3GB). They are being more than fair, and you continue to b*tch and moan.

If you think you should get more than 3GB of data at full speed for your $30, then yes, that's an entitlement. If you want more data, then PAY FOR IT. If you think you should be able to upgrade any devices while on grandfathered plans, even though AT&T foolishly allows it, that's entitlement. If you think you should be able keep grandfathered plans past the end of your contract, that's entitlement. If they told me I couldn't upgrade until updating plans, we'd probably ride out the rest of our 18 or so months left in contract with our current plans, since we don't really need our upgrades, but I wouldn't be angry or feel entitled to keep outdated plans, and I wouldn't mind updating them if we wanted/needed phone upgrades.

There are no greener pastures. Sprint's network is a train wreck, and Verizon offers 2GB/$30 on iPhone, and 4GB/$30 on Android (since Android phones on Verizon are LTE). There's no free ride. You have to pay for what you use.

In case I haven't been clear, I think that my grandfathered plan, the best one out there, should be de-grandfathered should I upgrade a phone or our contract runs out. I think it is ridiculous that AT&T let us keep FT850 for 6 phone upgrades over 4 years past it being offered. We just seeing how long we can keep it for kicks, if we actually start running low on minutes, we're going to be better off switching to FT700 with M2AM anyways.

I occasionally am jealous of unlimited, until I realize that I wouldn't be able to tether like I can on the 2GB plan, and AT&T doesn't seem to care on my plan, whereas they kick people off of unlimited. Tethering is HUGE for me, so overall, I probably would have been kicked off unlimited had I had it anyways, and my plan is cheaper until I use extreme amounts of data more than 6 months of the year.

 

[ericrwalker]

You get it, timing is everything you were fortunate to get a good plan. The cell phone companies were in trouble with the govt because they were changing users' plans unilaterally once their contract ended. In order to get themselves out of trouble they agreeed to grandfather the users on their current plans and only change it when the user wished to upgrade their plan, but why would a user want to upgrade an "unlimited" plan. This is ATT's method to accomplish this by muscling the "unlimited" users out.

Yeah I don't blame anyone for trying. I had an unlimited data plan as well, but it wasn't for an iPhone, but I kept an iPhone on it for a couple of years. (I would upgrade the 2nd phone line phone and put my sim in it). When the 4S came out I upgraded it and changed to 2GB now that I don't go that high most of the time.

Sucks what's going on, and it sucks they no longer offer unlimited. I figured that I actually save a few dollars a month now anyway, because unlimited is a little more than 2GB. Though if I was using more than 3GB per month, unlimited would be cheaper.

There's got to be a good answer, as internet gets faster on phones, 2GB isn't going to be enough for anyone some day.

 

[jjhrick]

Because the more people they have using more bandwidth, the more it impacts the network. They figure that most people who sign up now won't pay for the 5GB. Also, why should you get 5GB for the price of 3GB?



Because you pay $20 MORE for the 5GB plan. If you want 5GB, PAY FOR IT. My grandfathered plan is still the best, I pay $25 minus corporate discount for virtually unlimited (2GB) of usage. If I go into extreme levels of usage a few months of the year, I am still ahead.

You feel entitled to continue to have your plan, and to continue to have the full speed for all of the data you're slurping, regardless of reality. You are guaranteed unlimited data at some speed until the end of your contract. Nothing more.

If AT&T was being fair, they would lock your entire account (and mine on FT850, the $25 2GB plan and $15 200MB plan) out of upgrades until we change all our plans to current, AND they would automatically switch us to the current plans once all of our lines were out of contract (in my case, FT700, 300MB and 3GB). They are being more than fair, and you continue to b*tch and moan.

If you think you should get more than 3GB of data at full speed for your $30, then yes, that's an entitlement. If you want more data, then PAY FOR IT. If you think you should be able to upgrade any devices while on grandfathered plans, even though AT&T foolishly allows it, that's entitlement. If you think you should be able keep grandfathered plans past the end of your contract, that's entitlement. If they told me I couldn't upgrade until updating plans, we'd probably ride out the rest of our 18 or so months left in contract with our current plans, since we don't really need our upgrades, but I wouldn't be angry or feel entitled to keep outdated plans, and I wouldn't mind updating them if we wanted/needed phone upgrades.

There are no greener pastures. Sprint's network is a train wreck, and Verizon offers 2GB/$30 on iPhone, and 4GB/$30 on Android (since Android phones on Verizon are LTE). There's no free ride. You have to pay for what you use.

In case I haven't been clear, I think that my grandfathered plan, the best one out there, should be de-grandfathered should I upgrade a phone or our contract runs out. I think it is ridiculous that AT&T let us keep FT850 for 6 phone upgrades over 4 years past it being offered. We just seeing how long we can keep it for kicks, if we actually start running low on minutes, we're going to be better off switching to FT700 with M2AM anyways.

I occasionally am jealous of unlimited, until I realize that I wouldn't be able to tether like I can on the 2GB plan, and AT&T doesn't seem to care on my plan, whereas they kick people off of unlimited. Tethering is HUGE for me, so overall, I probably would have been kicked off unlimited had I had it anyways, and my plan is cheaper until I use extreme amounts of data more than 6 months of the year.

Your argument is moot, the grandfathered plans are not discontinued they are in force. When ATT offered the plan they did not specify any cap. Until they discontinue it they should honor it. Please feel free to donate the extra money to ATT as you see fit. I am sure they will appreciate the thought. Right now your argument is based slowly on the premise that ATT should not be offering the plan, but oops they do. It is not entitlement its a contract they take the users money and provide a service an unlimited program with no cap. If you own a house and have a mortgage with a fixed rate that is currently lower then the current offers should you be forced to pay more? If you have oil heat and prepid for oil before the heating season and the price of oil spikes (not that could every happen) should you pay more even though the contract guarantees a fixed price?

 

[jjhrick]

The user should only expect speed that is guaranteed by the contract, and there is no speed guaranteed in the contract.

Not true, they pay for an unlimited plan, ATT is artifically limiting the speed by throttling it. It is not a bandwidth issue it is a payment issue. They offer both unlimited and 5GB plans they throttle the unlimited plans at 3 GB but not the 5 GB plans. If ATT has a network issue with capacity they should throttle all users in the affected area. Choosing unlimited users only to throttle and does not fix that issue. The area with the capacity problem might only have 3 or 5 GB users but they aren't throttled until they exceed their plan. ATT is airing a commercial for unlimited mobile to mobile calling, hyping anytime, to anyone for howerver long, pretty clear isn't it. At what point will ATT decide they made another mistake and throttle that plan. Why should a user who pays his bill and ATT recieves it let ATT get away with that nonsense. Why do other ATT users who don't have this plan want ATT to get away with this? BiggAW likes ATT so much he wants everyone to pay more. I am more of the mindset if they can do it to the unlimited users they will eventually do it to me.

 

[flat five]

ATT is airing a commercial for unlimited mobile to mobile calling, hyping anytime, to anyone for howerver long, pretty clear isn't it.

i kinda wish at&t would start charging unlimited mobile->mobile calls if the user exceeds 3hrs of talk time..

...just to watch BiggAW (and the like) defend at&T
so ridiculous..

 

[rjohnstone]

ATT is airing a commercial for unlimited mobile to mobile calling, hyping anytime, to anyone for howerver long, pretty clear isn't it.

And note that call quality and/or connection stability are not listed as a guaranteed feature.
Just like speed is not listed as guaranteed feature in the unlimited data plan.
Unlimited data simply means you have no set limit on how much you can use, i.e., you will never be charged for overages since there is no set amount.

For the mouth breathers... speed was never guaranteed. Get over it.

AT&T has every legal right to "manage" traffic on their network.
This includes throttling users if they deem it necessary.

The one person that won brought to light that AT&T throttled to an extreme and made the service "unusable". This essentially denied the paying customer access to that service.

AT&T has since increased the throttled speed to something more "usable".
Still slow hell, but apparently "usable" by some standard that has yet to be identified.

AT&T has also appealed and they can use real attorney's in the appeal.
My guess is they will win.

 

[flat five]

For the mouth breathers... speed was never guaranteed. Get over it.

AT&T has every legal right to "manage" traffic on their network.
This includes throttling users if they deem it necessary.

and they deem it necessary because of what exactly?

 

[BiggAW]

Not true, they pay for an unlimited plan, ATT is artifically limiting the speed by throttling it. It is not a bandwidth issue it is a payment issue. They offer both unlimited and 5GB plans they throttle the unlimited plans at 3 GB but not the 5 GB plans.

If you want 5GB, THEN PAY FOR IT. You want SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. That is entitlement. D*mn it, I sound like an old curmudgeon republican now, but in this case, it's true.

If ATT has a network issue with capacity they should throttle all users in the affected area. Choosing unlimited users only to throttle and does not fix that issue. The area with the capacity problem might only have 3 or 5 GB users but they aren't throttled until they exceed their plan. ATT is airing a commercial for unlimited mobile to mobile calling, hyping anytime, to anyone for howerver long, pretty clear isn't it. At what point will ATT decide they made another mistake and throttle that plan. Why should a user who pays his bill and ATT recieves it let ATT get away with that nonsense. Why do other ATT users who don't have this plan want ATT to get away with this? BiggAW likes ATT so much he wants everyone to pay more. I am more of the mindset if they can do it to the unlimited users they will eventually do it to me.

That may well be a better way to do it from a technical perspective, but it is well within AT&T's right to do what they are doing.

BTW, unlimited calling, depending on the carrier, is generally 5000 minutes for wireless, and 10,000 on VOIP, as even at 5k, that's a business use.

No, it's not because I like AT&T so much, it's because what's fair is fair, and those of us, like myself, shouldn't be able to keep grandfathered plans if we want to upgrade our phones, or we go off contract.

We will probably drop our grandfathered voice plan eventually, simply because the new one with 150 minutes less net-net has more minutes, since it adds M2AM, but I will keep my grandfathered data plan as long as I can. I will do what is in my economic best interest, however, I will not b*tch and moan and say that I am entitled to this and entitled to that just because I have been a sub since 2004, or I the account has been around since the '90s. I'm not, and nor are you. If it is in your economic best interest to keep unlimited given the current network management, then keep it. If it's not don't keep it. But don't come on here and b*tch and moan about it.

By your logic, we are entitled to pay what we paid 10 years ago for cable TV, guess what, we're not. We're entitled to what the rate is this month. I want to get DirecTV soon, if I sign a 2-year contract, I am entitled to NOTHING in month 25. I am only entitled to the prices set forth by DirecTV for the first 24 months as per my contract, or to be let out of the contract if they don't want to hold up their end of it.

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i kinda wish at&t would start charging unlimited mobile->mobile calls if the user exceeds 3hrs of talk time..

...just to watch BiggAW (and the like) defend at&T
so ridiculous..

They have no need to. Voice is using 5% of their network capacity. Data is using 95%.

...

For the mouth breathers... speed was never guaranteed. Get over it.

...

Interesting insight on the throttling and making service "useless". EDGE is pretty usable at 200kbps. That's when it's behaving. When it's not, it's pretty useless (50kbps).

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Also, instead of b*tching and moaning about AT&T managing their network, why don't we complain about something more constructive? Like AT&T's lack of 3G build-out (supposedly coming this year), lack of network quality in some cities, and lack of LTE build-out?

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Your argument is moot, the grandfathered plans are not discontinued they are in force. When ATT offered the plan they did not specify any cap. Until they discontinue it they should honor it. Please feel free to donate the extra money to ATT as you see fit. I am sure they will appreciate the thought. Right now your argument is based slowly on the premise that ATT should not be offering the plan, but oops they do. It is not entitlement its a contract they take the users money and provide a service an unlimited program with no cap. If you own a house and have a mortgage with a fixed rate that is currently lower then the current offers should you be forced to pay more? If you have oil heat and prepid for oil before the heating season and the price of oil spikes (not that could every happen) should you pay more even though the contract guarantees a fixed price?

They are honoring it in accordance with the terms that the users signed in their contract.

I think they should phase it out with any equipment upgrade on the account, or when the account comes out of contract. 25 months from discontinuation it would be deleted permanently from the system, no exceptions.

That all depends on how the contracts are written. Some people sign fixed price heating oil contracts for price stability, even if it means they might pay more than market price. Others sign caps, which are higher than the fixed price plans.

Your AT&T contract specifically says AT&T can manage their network, which they are doing, so quit complaining about it.

You are also free to switch to the current metered plans.

 

[rjohnstone]

and they deem it necessary because of what exactly?

I'm not naive and assume you're not either.

They officially stated it was due to increased traffic/volume.

We all know it's all about the $$$$.
But at the end of the day, it's their network. Don't like the rules, leave.
All AT&T contract customers singed a contract that gave AT&T the wiggle room they needed to do this.
It is what it is.

 

[flat five]

We all know it's all about the $$$$.

exactly.. that's the sole reason they are doing this..

huge multinational corporations nickel & dime_ing the very people that allow them to be in business in the first place..

and we, for the most part, let them (and some of you fools actually encourage them to do so)..

we freaking suck as a whole.... and deserve everything these crooks are doing to us..

 

[jjhrick]

If you want 5GB, THEN PAY FOR IT. You want SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. That is entitlement. D*mn it, I sound like an old curmudgeon republican now, but in this case, it's true.

They do pay for it $30 a month that is not free! They are getting a better rate because of the plan that ATT offered and then grandfathered in. Too bad if you are incapable of decerning the difference. Not everyone pays the same price for the same service or product. You are so hung up on the fact that the 5GB is 50 bucks and the unlimited plan is 30 bucks well who set that price the users? No it was ATT. So argue with ATT to rescind that package but until ATT does they must honor their current offer!!

That may well be a better way to do it from a technical perspective, but it is well within AT&T's right to do what they are doing.

BTW, unlimited calling, depending on the carrier, is generally 5000 minutes for wireless, and 10,000 on VOIP, as even at 5k, that's a business use.

Att offers both 5000 and an unlimited voice plans for wireless calling.

No, it's not because I like AT&T so much, it's because what's fair is fair, and those of us, like myself, shouldn't be able to keep grandfathered plans if we want to upgrade our phones, or we go off contract.

To paraphrase Mae West fairness has nothing to do with it. It is ATT choice to continue to offer grandfathered plans. They did that because they and the other carriers were raising rates on users with expired contracts without notification. So in order to avoid trouble with the goverment that agreed to grandfather users in their current plans. They offer it users pay for it end of story.

We will probably drop our grandfathered voice plan eventually, simply because the new one with 150 minutes less net-net has more minutes, since it adds M2AM, but I will keep my grandfathered data plan as long as I can. I will do what is in my economic best interest, however, I will not b*tch and moan and say that I am entitled to this and entitled to that just because I have been a sub since 2004, or I the account has been around since the '90s. I'm not, and nor are you. If it is in your economic best interest to keep unlimited given the current network management, then keep it. If it's not don't keep it. But don't come on here and b*tch and moan about it.

By your logic, we are entitled to pay what we paid 10 years ago for cable TV, guess what, we're not. We're entitled to what the rate is this month. I want to get DirecTV soon, if I sign a 2-year contract, I am entitled to NOTHING in month 25. I am only entitled to the prices set forth by DirecTV for the first 24 months as per my contract, or to be let out of the contract if they don't want to hold up their end of it.

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They have no need to. Voice is using 5% of their network capacity. Data is using 95%.


Not true ATT did not raise the rates for unlimited users so the comparison to directTV is moot.

Interesting insight on the throttling and making service "useless". EDGE is pretty usable at 200kbps. That's when it's behaving. When it's not, it's pretty useless (50kbps).

----------

Also, instead of b*tching and moaning about AT&T managing their network, why don't we complain about something more constructive? Like AT&T's lack of 3G build-out (supposedly coming this year), lack of network quality in some cities, and lack of LTE build-out?

----------



They are honoring it in accordance with the terms that the users signed in their contract.

I think they should phase it out with any equipment upgrade on the account, or when the account comes out of contract. 25 months from discontinuation it would be deleted permanently from the system, no exceptions.

That all depends on how the contracts are written. Some people sign fixed price heating oil contracts for price stability, even if it means they might pay more than market price. Others sign caps, which are higher than the fixed price plans.

Your AT&T contract specifically says AT&T can manage their network, which they are doing, so quit complaining about it.

You are also free to switch to the current metered plans.

Unlimited users are not being required to switch. They are using the term abuse in order to throttle the unlimited users. I counter with the fact that 5GB users do not abuse the network in the 3-5GB range but somehow you and ATT claim the unlimited users do. Then you whine that the unlimited users got a better deal that what is currently offered to new customers so what. When ATT accepts the payment an agreement is in force and thats that. Get over that fact that 20 bucks less.

 

[neversink]

Oh... Good AT&T. Bad me for assuming that unlimited means unlimited even though the representative told me unlimited still meant unlimited. But of course I should bow down to wonderful AT&T and just roll over and play dead. You apologists for AT&T make me realize how easily people can be steamrolled.

You lie down in front of a steam roller, baby... Not me... i will fight those bastards until the end. Just because I am using more than 2 GB does not mean I am abusing. What nonsense. You offered me unlimited. Your representative told me unlimited. And now you want to abrogate the deal and you tell me I should just lay back like a moron. Not me, kiddo....

You be the corporate spokesman, and let the corporation screw you.

I'm not naive and assume you're not either.

They officially stated it was due to increased traffic/volume.

We all know it's all about the $$$$.
But at the end of the day, it's their network. Don't like the rules, leave.
All AT&T contract customers singed a contract that gave AT&T the wiggle room they needed to do this.
It is what it is.

 

[BiggAW]

Unlimited users are not being required to switch. They are using the term abuse in order to throttle the unlimited users. I counter with the fact that 5GB users do not abuse the network in the 3-5GB range but somehow you and ATT claim the unlimited users do. Then you whine that the unlimited users got a better deal that what is currently offered to new customers so what. When ATT accepts the payment an agreement is in force and thats that. Get over that fact that 20 bucks less.

It's not a better deal, as unlimited users will get kicked off for tethering, and forced onto the non-discountable $30 plan, I won't get kicked off for tethering, and I get to keep my discountable $25 plan that is like $20.50 after corporate discount.

What doesn't your thick skull understand about it's $20 more??? The point is that it's a deterrent to using that much data. If they allowed everyone on the network to use 5GB, the network would absolutely crumble. The point is, they are allowing a way for people who have a legitimate need for a metric assload of data to use it, but they have to pay for it. People just wasting bandwidth (the vast majority of them) won't pay that much, and the network is protected from a deluge of data. Of course those users would be better off getting on the big red upper-C block, with it's little loophole to get unlimited, and rooting to get tethering.

I don't particularly agree with the way that they are structuring the price points and plans, but the logic is still understandable. 3GB is the $30 point on either plan. They are giving LTE users a free ride because LTE is on greenfield spectrum that's barely being used. The best thing for the network would have been to make the biggest plan $20/Unlimited*, and then by default throttle hard at the 1GB point, and have a specific opt-in option for buying more GB's at full speed for $10/GB.

Oh... Good AT&T. Bad me for assuming that unlimited means unlimited even though the representative told me unlimited still meant unlimited. But of course I should bow down to wonderful AT&T and just roll over and play dead. You apologists for AT&T make me realize how easily people can be steamrolled.

It still means unlimited. You can use as much as you want. However, the speed is not guaranteed, and You signed the contract that allows AT&T to manage their network. So don't b*tch when they start managing the network. You signed it, now live by it.

 

[flat five]

today is the first day of my billing cycle

started downloading a .3dm file yesterday (500MB) at around noon and it finished a little after 11pm...

at 12:45am this morning, i ran a speedtest which showed i was still being throttled (0.21Mbps download) and checked my monthly usage (7.8GB).. then turned off my phone

turned my phone on this morning and ran a speedtest which showed i wasn't being throttled (5.96Mbps download) then checked my data usage for the month..

Used 515.66 MB of Unlimited.

WTF??!

called at&t a little bit ago to ask what's up.. went through a couple of different reps until i arrived at a specialist...

she tells me that the 1/2gig came from yesterday's download which finished around the time that my new cycle began (apparently, data usage isn't clocked until a download is complete??!! wtf).. however, that entire download came in at throttled speeds but it's being charged against my 3MB of unthrottled use for this month..

after around 10 minutes of back-n-forthing with this lady, she finally admits she recognizes the problem but unfortunately, there's nothing that can be done because the system is designed this way and she can't override the system...
i guess it's not a bunch of crook execs at at&t doing this crap.. it's a robot!! (and a dumb evil one at that)

———
last month (when i was throttled after 1 day of use), i switched to sprint but there was a problem with getting my phone# to transfer so i returned and told them i'll hold off for a while to see what happens with at&t next month...

well, i guess i shouldn't of held off... this is ridic... switching to sprint for sure now..


[edit].. oh.. @BiggAW — please defend at&t on this one.. i could use a laugh today..

 

[jjhrick]

It's not a better deal, as unlimited users will get kicked off for tethering, and forced onto the non-discountable $30 plan, I won't get kicked off for tethering, and I get to keep my discountable $25 plan that is like $20.50 after corporate discount.

What doesn't your thick skull understand about it's $20 more??? The point is that it's a deterrent to using that much data. If they allowed everyone on the network to use 5GB, the network would absolutely crumble. The point is, they are allowing a way for people who have a legitimate need for a metric assload of data to use it, but they have to pay for it. People just wasting bandwidth (the vast majority of them) won't pay that much, and the network is protected from a deluge of data. Of course those users would be better off getting on the big red upper-C block, with it's little loophole to get unlimited, and rooting to get tethering.

I don't particularly agree with the way that they are structuring the price points and plans, but the logic is still understandable. 3GB is the $30 point on either plan. They are giving LTE users a free ride because LTE is on greenfield spectrum that's barely being used. The best thing for the network would have been to make the biggest plan $20/Unlimited*, and then by default throttle hard at the 1GB point, and have a specific opt-in option for buying more GB's at full speed for $10/GB.



It still means unlimited. You can use as much as you want. However, the speed is not guaranteed, and You signed the contract that allows AT&T to manage their network. So don't b*tch when they start managing the network. You signed it, now live by it.

ATT started this mess by throttling unlimited users at caps as low as 1.5GB based on the top 5% of the user in an area while at the same time offering a 3GB plan for $30, the exact price as the unlimited plan. So we no longer have to worry about the $20 difference with the 5GB plan. So maybe since we no longer have to fret over the $20 dollars we can look at what ATT is really attempting to do. Please explain how an unlimited user who is using between 2-3 GB is abusing the network while the 3GB plan user isn't. Obviously it has nothing to do with the $20 but then what? Now that we don't have to fixate on the $20 maybe you head will thaw out and you can think again.

The speed is not guaranteed arguement is not valid we are not talking about network congestion failures we are talking about artifical data throughput caps being applied by ATT. Again, two users using the same amount of data less than 3GB one is throttled the other isn't. Both are paying $30 dollars, we don't have to worry about the $20 difference do we? The only valid reason in the ATT contract for throttling is abuse, how is the unlimited user abusing the network in this valid example? Just my 2,000 cents.

 

[BiggAW]

ATT started this mess by throttling unlimited users at caps as low as 1.5GB based on the top 5% of the user in an area while at the same time offering a 3GB plan for $30, the exact price as the unlimited plan. So we no longer have to worry about the $20 difference with the 5GB plan. So maybe since we no longer have to fret over the $20 dollars we can look at what ATT is really attempting to do. Please explain how an unlimited user who is using between 2-3 GB is abusing the network while the 3GB plan user isn't. Obviously it has nothing to do with the $20 but then what? Now that we don't have to fixate on the $20 maybe you head will thaw out and you can think again.

The speed is not guaranteed arguement is not valid we are not talking about network congestion failures we are talking about artifical data throughput caps being applied by ATT. Again, two users using the same amount of data less than 3GB one is throttled the other isn't. Both are paying $30 dollars, we don't have to worry about the $20 difference do we? The only valid reason in the ATT contract for throttling is abuse, how is the unlimited user abusing the network in this valid example? Just my 2,000 cents.

I don't know their logic, but maybe it was that the unlimited user will keep slurping, so they should knock them down on speed a bit lower so that they ultimately get about the same amount in the end. You could stream a LOT of Pandora while being throttled.

Nonetheless, they have the right to manage their network. If you don't like it, go sign up for the 4GB double your data plan on Verizon 4G LTE.

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Also, normal users doing normal things with their phones would never have seen any of the throttling.

 

[jjhrick]

I don't know their logic, but maybe it was that the unlimited user will keep slurping, so they should knock them down on speed a bit lower so that they ultimately get about the same amount in the end. You could stream a LOT of Pandora while being throttled.

Nonetheless, they have the right to manage their network. If you don't like it, go sign up for the 4GB double your data plan on Verizon 4G LTE.

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Also, normal users doing normal things with their phones would never have seen any of the throttling.

Nonetheless you or ATT have not proved abuse therefore there is not reason for throttling. There is a contract in place users do not have to move to get what they paid for. Why do you want to only enforce the clauses that ATT is attempting to use against unlimited users but ignore the fact that ATT offered an unlimited plan with no cap to it's Iphone customers and is still collecting payments for it. You understand everything else about ATT but when shown their true motivation you plead a lack of comprehension. Without examining what the users are doing you are making a astronomical leap in stating normal users would not be throttled. Maybe they are streaming movies, sports games, music and the various other data surping apps that ATT promotes in the commercials. Maybe by your standards merely using the ATT network is abuse. Oh and by the way the old if you don't like it then leave arguement so plays into what ATT is trying to accomplish, if they can't get the unlimited users to "upgrade" then they want them to switch on their own. Why, because ATT won't end the unlimited plan. Here is some food for thought, ATT is offering unlimited data to users who upgrade to the new IPAD with no data cap! Of course they are "reserving" the right to throttle the users at a later time. So for now it won't be abusing the network for going in for all you can eat data, until enough users have been suckered into upgrading to the new IPAD then they can cap it. Wow that sounds a lot like bait and switch. But I am sure you will have some excuse for ATT or plead a lack of not understanding them.

BTW ATT saw that the 1.5 to 3 GB throttling would not fly so they decided to raise it to over 3 GB. So apparently using the network to 3GB is ok now and not abuse. Now you can start complaining about the $20 again. I am sure that will please you to no end. As you can see ATT does not have a clue they are simply trying to gauge what people will tolerate, abuse to ATT is based on marketing not bandwidth, but you knew that didn't you?

 

[flat five]

fwiw, i switched to sprint last night..

$79/month plan: unlimited texts, unlimited data, 450 minutes to landlines, unlimited minutes to any mobile phone…

data speeds are slower (depends on how you look at it)

on my block, i could get around 6Mbps on at&t but i had wifi there so it doesn't really matter (getting around 1.5Mbps on sprint)..

the kicker though is that near the waterfront (greenpoint/williamsburg), at&t is virtually useless (even more useless than being throttled.. often not even connecting to E or 3G)..
i'm near the waterfront a lot and my sprint speeds are hovering in the 1-2 Mbps range..

i wish i made this switch 4 months ago when at&t first throttled me.. my speeds are at least 50x faster than i've been getting from at&t on 28 days per month.. and my bill is going to be around $40 cheaper per month ..

it cost me $200 to go to sprint (and 4s) but that's the same cost at&t would of charged if i upgraded my iphone4 via them..

i know it hasn't even been a full day yet and i've yet to travel outside of nyc with my sprint phone but seriously, i'm super happy to have at&t out of my life..

 

[BiggAW]

Nonetheless you or ATT have not proved abuse therefore there is not reason for throttling. There is a contract in place users do not have to move to get what they paid for. Why do you want to only enforce the clauses that ATT is attempting to use against unlimited users but ignore the fact that ATT offered an unlimited plan with no cap to it's Iphone customers and is still collecting payments for it. You understand everything else about ATT but when shown their true motivation you plead a lack of comprehension. Without examining what the users are doing you are making a astronomical leap in stating normal users would not be throttled.

Guess what? I don't care what AT&T's motivations are. They don't matter. What matters was what the customer signed in their contract.

Did anyone ever get throttled at 500MB? Not that I've ever heard of. Considering 400MB is normal, that means no normal user has ever been throttled.

You can argue about levels of extreme, and of course you could try and justify the guy using 10GB on AT&T but the guy that passed 1TB on Verizon 4G LTE, but guess what?: that doesn't matter, all the matters is the big picture, and the big picture says, 1.5GB is a LOT of data.

fwiw, i switched to sprint last night..

Have fun in the slow lane with no coverage. Well, you'll get coverage from Verizon, but then you'll hit your roaming limits pretty quick.

 

[jjhrick]

Guess what? I don't care what AT&T's motivations are. They don't matter. What matters was what the customer signed in their contract.

Did anyone ever get throttled at 500MB? Not that I've ever heard of. Considering 400MB is normal, that means no normal user has ever been throttled.

You can argue about levels of extreme, and of course you could try and justify the guy using 10GB on AT&T but the guy that passed 1TB on Verizon 4G LTE, but guess what?: that doesn't matter, all the matters is the big picture, and the big picture says, 1.5GB is a LOT of data.



Have fun in the slow lane with no coverage. Well, you'll get coverage from Verizon, but then you'll hit your roaming limits pretty quick.

Man wow now you are the data police. You are pulling numbers out of the air. What your so-called normal user uses has nothing to do with what we were debating, but since you can't deal with the facts that ATT offers many plans exceed your normal definition keep retreating I like the way to keep trying to bring in spurious arguments to cover the facts. Their motivation is directly in question, if they are using the abuse clause to throttle and frustrate legitimate users when there is clearly not. Of course according to you abuse now starts at 400MB. Why don't you give up your grandfathered plan on your own ATT is not forcing you to keep it, put your money where your mouth is. I hear there is one user who never uses more than 10MB per month perhaps that should be your new definition of abuse of service. Maybe we should go back to dial up speeds 56kb. I can't wait to read your next attempt to divert the argument, I am sure it will even be even more obtuse and have even less to do with the issues at hand.

 

[neversink]

The contract that AT&T makes everyone sign is ludicrous, and may not even stand up in court. There are a lot of conflicting paragraphs in there. The courts and juries are getting sick of these 100 page contracts that deny consumers any rights.

Go ahead and defend the sales rep who told me that unlimited meant unlimited when I upgraded to 4s. I asked about all sorts of caveats and I was told "unlimited means unlimited." Courts don't like tricks and misrepresentations. If a contract breaks a law than that part of the contract isn't legal. There are probably many items in their contract that violate consumer protection laws and perhaps other laws as well.

Shame on you for being apologists for AT&T. What's in it for you. Or are you a paid shill to post notes in favor of AT&T.

You know nothing about the law. Contracts are always challenged in court....

Stupid and ignorant apologist of AT&T....

Guess what? I don't care what AT&T's motivations are. They don't matter. What matters was what the customer signed in their contract.

Did anyone ever get throttled at 500MB? Not that I've ever heard of. Considering 400MB is normal, that means no normal user has ever been throttled.

You can argue about levels of extreme, and of course you could try and justify the guy using 10GB on AT&T but the guy that passed 1TB on Verizon 4G LTE, but guess what?: that doesn't matter, all the matters is the big picture, and the big picture says, 1.5GB is a LOT of data.



Have fun in the slow lane with no coverage. Well, you'll get coverage from Verizon, but then you'll hit your roaming limits pretty quick.

 

[flat five]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B179 Safari/7534.48.3)

@BiggAW
dunno man.. I guess you don't actually read what other people say.. just make up whatever you like?

I'm posting this from a location that I've barely been able to make a phone call from for years.. and reading this forum at 50x the speed my AT&T service has been.

I think at this point, I have nothing left to say to you other than some form of personal insults so I'll bow out now. adios

 

[BiggAW]

Man wow now you are the data police. You are pulling numbers out of the air. What your so-called normal user uses has nothing to do with what we were debating, but since you can't deal with the facts that ATT offers many plans exceed your normal definition keep retreating I like the way to keep trying to bring in spurious arguments to cover the facts. Their motivation is directly in question, if they are using the abuse clause to throttle and frustrate legitimate users when there is clearly not. Of course according to you abuse now starts at 400MB. Why don't you give up your grandfathered plan on your own ATT is not forcing you to keep it, put your money where your mouth is. I hear there is one user who never uses more than 10MB per month perhaps that should be your new definition of abuse of service. Maybe we should go back to dial up speeds 56kb. I can't wait to read your next attempt to divert the argument, I am sure it will even be even more obtuse and have even less to do with the issues at hand.

There's nothing obtuse. The contract says what the contract says, and if you sign it, you are bound by it.

I'm going to keep my grandfathered 2GB plan as long as they let me, but I won't b*tch when they make me get rid of it.

The contract that AT&T makes everyone sign is ludicrous, and may not even stand up in court. There are a lot of conflicting paragraphs in there. The courts and juries are getting sick of these 100 page contracts that deny consumers any rights.

...

Stupid and ignorant apologist of AT&T....

I don't particularly like AT&T's pricing policies. However, facts are facts, and as a person who likes objective facts, AT&T is in the right, because it is clearly stated in the contract.

Under section 6.2 from the customer agreement, it clearly states:

"Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows."

Section 3.2 also clearly states that data speeds are not guaranteed:

"AT&T does not guarantee availability of wireless network. Services may be subject to certain Device and compatibility/limitations including memory, storage, network availability, coverage, accessibility and data conversion limitations. Services (including without limitation, eligibility requirements, plans, pricing, features and/or service areas) are subject to change without notice.

When outside AT&T's coverage area, access will be limited to information and applications previously downloaded to or resident on your device. Coverage areas vary between AT&T network technologies. See coverage map(s), available at store or from your sales representative, for details or the coverage map at www.att.com/coverage-viewer.

Actual network speeds depend upon device characteristics, network, network availability and coverage levels, tasks, file characteristics, applications and other factors. Performance may be impacted by transmission limitations, terrain, in-building/in-vehicle use and capacity constraints."

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B179 Safari/7534.48.3)

@BiggAW
dunno man.. I guess you don't actually read what other people say.. just make up whatever you like?

I'm posting this from a location that I've barely been able to make a phone call from for years.. and reading this forum at 50x the speed my AT&T service has been.

I think at this point, I have nothing left to say to you other than some form of personal insults so I'll bow out now. adios

I live by objective facts. Not by BS like others on this thread. The contract is what the contract says, not what you people want to make it up to say.

 

[jjhrick]

There's nothing obtuse. The contract says what the contract says, and if you sign it, you are bound by it.

I'm going to keep my grandfathered 2GB plan as long as they let me, but I won't b*tch when they make me get rid of it.

That's fine, then you won't continue to b*tch when unlimited users continue to retain their grandfathered unlimited plans.

I don't particularly like AT&T's pricing policies. However, facts are facts, and as a person who likes objective facts, AT&T is in the right, because it is clearly stated in the contract.

Under section 6.2 from the customer agreement, it clearly states:

"Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows."

Please notice this clause is referring to abuse of network, which both you and ATT have not proved. Using the network especially withing the data caps of other plans can not possibly constitute abuse, I know $20.

Section 3.2 also clearly states that data speeds are not guaranteed:

"AT&T does not guarantee availability of wireless network. Services may be subject to certain Device and compatibility/limitations including memory, storage, network availability, coverage, accessibility and data conversion limitations. Services (including without limitation, eligibility requirements, plans, pricing, features and/or service areas) are subject to change without notice.

This clause does not apply it is referring to limitations of the network not to throttling. Since unlimited is within the eligibility requirements this does not apply in the lease.

When outside AT&T's coverage area, access will be limited to information and applications previously downloaded to or resident on your device. Coverage areas vary between AT&T network technologies. See coverage map(s), available at store or from your sales representative, for details or the coverage map at www.att.com/coverage-viewer.

Actual network speeds depend upon device characteristics, network, network availability and coverage levels, tasks, file characteristics, applications and other factors. Performance may be impacted by transmission limitations, terrain, in-building/in-vehicle use and capacity constraints."

This is a network limitation clause not a throttling clause.

I live by objective facts. Not by BS like others on this thread. The contract is what the contract says, not what you people want to make it up to say.

The BS is strictly your understanding of what the contract states, you ignore the facts.

1 ATT offers an unlimited plan. - $20 less than their highest cap plan.
2 ATT throttles or attempts to throttle the user based on an abuse clause which neither you or ATT has proven applies.
3 A contract has two sides ATT collects $30 a month for their plan and offers unlimited data. The point being if you accept the payment you are also bound by the contract ie. unlimited data. If the network is slow in an area due to over selling of services then all users are affected and are slowed down by the lack of bandwidth. No throttling is required or needed to accomplish that.

Again what level is abuse, 10MB, 400MB, 3GB, 5GB, or more. It's not in the contract, mere data use does not constitute abuse. You fail to establish this, you can't legally throttle a user. You are all about fairness what is fair about offering something if you have no intent of honoring, I believe the legal term is fraud.

As far as objectivity on your part that I hope is an attempt at a joke. You continue to ignore the issues while whinning about $20 difference, fictiicous 400MB normal users, pretending non-comprehension of ATT's motivations in throttling unlimited users and the pricing and offerings of ATT's data plans. If I were to go back through the entire thread I am sure there are many more examples of your lack of objectivity.

When you quote to contract you might try to understand it.

Define abuse or give up. Simple data usage isn't! Any other issues are spurious to this discussion.

 

[BiggAW]

The BS is strictly your understanding of what the contract states, you ignore the facts.

1 ATT offers an unlimited plan. - $20 less than their highest cap plan.
2 ATT throttles or attempts to throttle the user based on an abuse clause which neither you or ATT has proven applies.
3 A contract has two sides ATT collects $30 a month for their plan and offers unlimited data. The point being if you accept the payment you are also bound by the contract ie. unlimited data. If the network is slow in an area due to over selling of services then all users are affected and are slowed down by the lack of bandwidth. No throttling is required or needed to accomplish that.

Again what level is abuse, 10MB, 400MB, 3GB, 5GB, or more. It's not in the contract, mere data use does not constitute abuse. You fail to establish this, you can't legally throttle a user. You are all about fairness what is fair about offering something if you have no intent of honoring, I believe the legal term is fraud.

As far as objectivity on your part that I hope is an attempt at a joke. You continue to ignore the issues while whinning about $20 difference, fictiicous 400MB normal users, pretending non-comprehension of ATT's motivations in throttling unlimited users and the pricing and offerings of ATT's data plans. If I were to go back through the entire thread I am sure there are many more examples of your lack of objectivity.

When you quote to contract you might try to understand it.

Define abuse or give up. Simple data usage isn't! Any other issues are spurious to this discussion.

1. You have to realize that abusive use is relative to the price of the plan. It's like insurance. AT&T knows that in aggregate, even if they offer a $200 35GB plan, so few users are going to buy it that it won't, in aggregate, have any meaningful effect on their network. They know that most data wasters aren't going to buy the $50/5GB plan just to get more data, so the network is safe.

Thus, defining the $30 level at ~3GB or a little less makes sense from an aggregate point of view. They are also counting on the fact that the vast majority of those users are using around 400MB/mo, which is too much for the $20 plan, and not enough for the $30 plan, so they have to buy the $30.

2. If you read it, it applies when AT&T believes it applies.

3. There is a limited amount of network capacity, and it is not fair to allow a bandwidth pig to be slurping 10GB of data and not be paying for it. Why should I experience a slow network on my $25/2GB plan because you're slurping down bandwidth like a pig. If you want to be a pig, use wifi. That's unlicensed, and you can slurp as much as you want through it.

There's no fraud in doing what's in the contract. It is unlimited, and even with throttling, it is still unlimited. AT&T actually has the right to cut off the service, according to the contract, but they are nice, and they throttle instead so that you get slower data speeds, but still have a fully functional iPhone.

This is not a joke. I have to defend reality and what is true because no one else will. Most people are acting like screaming three-year-olds who think they are entitled to whatever they want, and that the contract they signed doesn't apply to them.

You clearly don't understand the issue of aggregate consumption, as well as the many published statistics about average smartphone users and how much data they use, which is around 400MB.

I know what AT&T's motivations are. They want to protect their network, but they have no cajones. They need to grow a pair, and make it a pre-requisite that any upgrade on an account forces the whole account to de-grandfather everything, and once the last line is out of contract, the whole plan is automatically de-grandfathered. At month 25 after a plan is discontinued, the plan should be deleted from the system. This grandfathering is ridiculous.

There are many definitions for abuse. You could easily justify that more than double the median user is abuse. That number is below 1GB. I'd say that's a little draconian. It was simpler when the data plan was 2GB, as that was an easy number that all but the most extreme users fall under.