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I understand where AT&T is coming from. First of all, when they made unlimited plans, I'm guessing they didn't foresee people using GBs of data. And the more people who hog band width, the more that impacts everyone and the more costly it is for AT&T.

If in 2007 AT&T couldn't foresee that people would be using GB of data in the very near future, there is some serious lack of corporate imagination and basic understanding of their own industry. Did they not take a look at the feature set of the iPhone and its attached ecosystem? iTunes had already been selling videos and of course music for some time, was it that much of a leap to imagine streaming music functionality or even video apps like Netflix?

2012 is admittedly quite different than 2007, and I have not only been grateful for my grandfathered plan, but in fact rarely if ever used >1 GB/month except when traveling. I had oft considered changing plans to gain tethering for my iPad and kids' Touches. I held on through the 4S transition because iTunes Match was on the way and I figured what a great reason to maintain the unlimited plan.

First month with iTM I hit 5GB/month for the first time ever, and I get the throttle warning. They got plenty of $30/month from me with very little data use for many years...seems my sudden spike, taking true advantage of the promise of unlimited, would be just a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of newbie iPhone customers joining the network at "typical" usage levels each month.
 
thanks to AT&T's horrible coverage in Berkeley a few years back, I messed up a phone interview because their network kept dropping the call, and I had no landline to fall back on.

The company I was interviewing with? AT&T!!!
 
#1 AT&T's contract only says they can throttle you if you are adversely affecting the network (or using the network in prohibited ways, but that isn't my concern in this post). That means they can only throttle you during peak hours or congested periods, not throttle you automatically when you reach a certain amount of usage. That is the natural reading of those contract clauses and the only one that would be upheld in court. So there is still significant problems with AT&T's throttling practices/policies, and their unlimited data contracts.

#2 Also, as someone else posted earlier in the thread, there can be two reasons for network congestion. (a) the user is consuming too much heavy data and is therefore blocking the abilities of others to use the networks as well, or (b) AT&T can be adding too many users on each cell tower, making normal data usage impossible even for regular users. If the congestion is AT&T's fault, they can't throttle you willy-nilly. Imagine if AT&T wanted to throttle everyone. Do you think they could just double or triple the amount of people on individual towers, claim there is congestion, and thereby throttle everyone? I doubt that would fly in court.

So the thing to keep in mind regarding the individuals on unlimited plans is this: if they decided to sue, they could demand to know how many people were on the network when they first purchased their data plans. They could demand to know what kind of network congestion there was at that period in time. If their usage at that point made minimal to no impact on the network, the result of future congestion isn't their fault but the fault of AT&T adding too many additional subscribers to the network. Consequently, it is those new users that should be targeted by the throttling, not the old users who weren't responsible for the congestion. Again, though the contract gives AT&T the ability to throttle people, that isn't a blanket, carte blanche, privilege. There are reasonable conditions under which they can do this. In a court of law AT&T has to prove they have justifiable grounds to target any single individual user as being worthy of being throttled. At least, that's how I read the contract. The contract doesn't say they can discriminate and selectively, and arbitrarily, target individual users (i.e. unlimited data plans).

All this to say, if someone sued AT&T, I think AT&T would find they have to answer for a lot of their suspicious activities.

Imagine if your electricity provider decided to add so many people on the power grid that they now informed you, you couldn't heat your home 24/7. You couldn't power your lights and fridge 24/7. You'd sue them promptly and tell them to stop adding people, and to even remove people from the power grid, or upgrade the grid to accommodate your needs. You wouldn't decry individuals and complain about electricity hogs. Those dam people who want to keep their homes warm and have their lights on!
 
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AT&T has set it up so that customers can't group together in a single class action lawsuit allowing AT&T to focus its resources on one single suit.
I'm not saying it's right, but FWIW, every major US wireless carrier has set it up so that customers can't group together in a single class action lawsuit allowing them to focus their resources on one single suit.
 
I'm not saying it's right, but FWIW, every major US wireless carrier has set it up so that customers can't group together in a single class action lawsuit allowing them to focus their resources on one single suit.

And, under the right circumstances, judges have elected to disregard the no-class-action clauses in such contracts, detemining that such clauses can sometimes have the potential to give one party to the contract (the wireless carrier) an unconscionable advantage without due compensation to the contract's other party (the customer).

For example, such no-class-action clauses were present in the contracts of customers in California leading up to the lawsuits about ETFs (back before all the carriers started pro-rating their ETFs). The judge determined that the no-class-action clauses were invalid, and the class action proceeded anyway.

Decisions like that would not necessarily automatically carry forward from one class action to the next, because two different class actions may have very different sets of background circumstances.

But there is a precedent that judges do have the authority, if the circumstances warrant it, to invalidate any clause of a contract, including clauses which would have attempted to impose restrictions on the court's very jurisdiction to hear the case.
 
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AT&T probably has the right to hange their terms. The right way to do it is to create a press release with a countdown. Like:

"Due to the nature of broadband usage in the data boom era, it has become impossible for us to extend our unlimited broadband service. We apologize for the change, as we care deeply about our most loyal customers. However, as of January 1, 2013, our unlimited broadband service will end."

Something like that would be a bit more understandable!
 
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topmounter said:
The concept of selling anything like bandwidth as "unlimited" is a bad idea.

Even though fresh water is virtually limitless where I live relative to the number of people who live here, there is a very good reason why my local muni doesn't offer "unlimited" water plans... there is a certain percentage of the population that is going to turn their faucets wide open 24x7x365 just because they can and eventually it will become an issue for everyone (decreased water pressure, additional wear and tear on the infrastructure and if the trend catches on, then eventually the supply will become an issue and they'll have to build additional reservoirs).

This analogy is not correct. Data is not a resource. AT&T does nothing more than just deliver the data.
 
The want disputes resolved by small claims actions. I hope they get their wish and get a several thousand suits per month in all states.

Let them show up in the various municipalities and defend what unlimited, congested, etc means.
 
or.... way to go customers, agree to Terms of Service that you now choose to not agree to. Take your pick.

Read your Verizon Fios contracts, your Sprint contracts, etc. They all have the same types of clauses.

The problem with these forms of ToS is that these companies draft them to basically inform the customer that they are buying into something that they agree to pay for for a term and that the customer is locked into paying it, but at any time they can alter that contract to fit their own needs.
If I walked into AT&T and handed them a contract that said, "I agree to pay you as a customer of AT&T but at any time given my own financial burden, I can reduce my payment for your services"
Do you think that would be agreeable?
Why is it always that the customer is contractually obligated to agree to pay for something but the provider can at any time change what the customer originally agreed to pay for?
They should not get to make that change without compensating the customer.
YES, they have the right to reduce the customer's service, but the customer equally has the right to demand compensation for that reduction to their service because the provider is no longer providing them with the same service level they agreed to pay for.
 
This analogy is not correct. Data is not a resource. AT&T does nothing more than just deliver the data.

I fail to see why Data not being a resource challenges the analogy. The distribution point seems to hold to both kinds of service. Your criteria for comparison seems rather arbitrary and self-serving. Say more if you want to persuade anyone there is something wrong with his water example.
 
It's better than the whiners on these boards who are (quite successfully) playing 'stupid'. If the contract expressly says the company can do X, don't complain when the company actually *does* X. They didn't trick you, they told you up front that this was a possibility. You just weren't paying attention.
You underestimate the power of the press. If you complain to the press about anything any given company does (even if they are 100% within their right to do it), they might reverse their position to avoid being made into a villain.

Did you forget about the international data roaming debacle? You know, the numerous incidents when idiots went outside of the US, didn't turn roaming off, kept using data like there's no tomorrow and then almost had heart attacks when they received $20,000+ bills? And that was despite the fact that they were warned that if they used their phones on networks other than their home one, they'd be "raped", and "raped" even harder if they used data on top of that. Nevertheless, they went to the press b@#$%ing and moaning, and the next thing you know, their Telcos significantly reduced their bills. Granted, they did not forgive that kind of thing completely, but some of these bills were cut down to several hundred dollars, which was a lot more manageable than the above.
 
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This analogy is not correct. Data is not a resource. AT&T does nothing more than just deliver the data.

The data is not a finite resource, true. It literally generates itself. But the medium through which the data is carried, especially the "last mile" of wireless spectrum from the tower to the phone, most definitely is a finite resource.

The scarcity can be relieved by either decreasing demand, or by increasing the amount of spectrum a single cell has available over which the data can be carried, or by increasing the efficiency with which data is encoded allowing the same amount of spectrum to pack in greater amounts of data, or by dividing larger cells serving many customers into a set of several smaller cells each shared among fewer customers.

Option (1) is the short-term strategy AT&T has adopted for quickest returns with the smallest up-front investment. But it certainly isn't AT&T's only strategy.

You can see evidence of options (2), (3) in AT&T's LTE rollout. There are also cases where you can see evidence of (4) as well. However, these strategies all cost more up front and take a relatively long time to start yielding results.

In the mean time, the system is still fundamentally broken, and strategy (1) is a quick interim way to get results. And AT&T may realize, looking forward, that keeping option (1) going even after their current round of installations of options (2), (3), and (4) have finished rolling out, may allow them to push back the future need to pursue additional investments in (2), (3), and (4).
 
Imagine if your electricity provider decided to add so many people on the power grid that they now informed you, you couldn't heat your home 24/7. You couldn't power your lights and fridge 24/7. You'd sue them promptly and tell them to stop adding people, and to even remove people from the power grid, or upgrade the grid to accommodate your needs. You wouldn't decry individuals and complain about electricity hogs. Those dam people who want to keep their homes warm and have their lights on!

Actually, this often happens in warm areas like California where there is high population and high demand in the summer. Rolling blackouts are performed to keep the grid up and functioning but at a selectively reduced level.
The difference however is that the customers who experience a blackout do not pay for electricity during those times. So it seems to me to make sense that if a user needs to be throttled in order for AT&T to keep their "grid" up and running, they should be prepared to compensate those users for their reduction in service level.
 
It's better than the whiners on these boards who are (quite successfully) playing 'stupid'. If the contract expressly says the company can do X, don't complain when the company actually *does* X. They didn't trick you, they told you up front that this was a possibility. You just weren't paying attention.

What I enjoy is the people who pretend to read the contracts and lambast others for allegedly playing stupid and allegedly not reading the contracts.

Why don't you tell me what you think the contract says, because it isn't obvious it says what you seem to think it does. The contract doesn't say that AT&T can do anything it wants to stop congestion. It says:

AT&T contract said:
AT&T reserves the right to (i) limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny Service and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network and (ii) protect its wireless network from harm, which may impact legitimate data flows

(ii) is non-applicable, and the question of prohibited use isn't our topic here. Denying service and/or terminating it isn't our concern either. That leaves limiting throughput for people whose usage AT&T believes is "adversely impact[ing] the wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network".

This is a legal contract, and the clauses have to be conscionable to be upheld. AT&T has to justify its beliefs, and it has to be able to justify that its conduct of limiting throughput is reasonable, like for instance, doing this during, and only during, congested period. Read my earlier post, it'll explain in more detail why the throttling behavior isn't a clear cut case.

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Actually, this often happens in warm areas like California where there is high population and high demand in the summer. Rolling blackouts are performed to keep the grid up and functioning but at a selectively reduced level.
The difference however is that the customers who experience a blackout do not pay for electricity during those times. So it seems to me to make sense that if a user needs to be throttled in order for AT&T to keep their "grid" up and running, they should be prepared to compensate those users for their reduction in service level.

Exactly. And blackouts are temporary and rather short lived; they don't last for the remainder of the month.
 
The problem with these forms of ToS is that these companies draft them to basically inform the customer that they are buying into something that they agree to pay for for a term and that the customer is locked into paying it, but at any time they can alter that contract to fit their own needs.
If I walked into AT&T and handed them a contract that said, "I agree to pay you as a customer of AT&T but at any time given my own financial burden, I can reduce my payment for your services"
Do you think that would be agreeable?
Why is it always that the customer is contractually obligated to agree to pay for something but the provider can at any time change what the customer originally agreed to pay for?
They should not get to make that change without compensating the customer.
YES, they have the right to reduce the customer's service, but the customer equally has the right to demand compensation for that reduction to their service because the provider is no longer providing them with the same service level they agreed to pay for.

Well The Banana republic where i live has this right granted by law to cancel a contract if a provider changes the service or terms of the service. No questions asked that is.

Keeps providers in line. I'm not sure if this is possible in US though ... greed and corruption comes to mind immediately. Or such failsafes already be in place, but they aren't.
 
Marketing 101

We have been conditioned to accept marketing terms as truth.

FREE with purchase.

Lowfat means you can eat as much as you want without gaining weight.

We will double the offer you pay only shipping and handling.

Unlimited is what we want it to be.

If you offer a 5GB plan and plan to honor it, how can an unlimited plan be less. ATT is not being subtle about prodding users from the unlimited plans to the 3 or 5 GB plans. Why is utilizing the plan you are paying for abusive? Was ATT forced to offer an unlimited plan? Should they be forced to honor it?

How about an honest commercial that shows users being capped and curbed, or should they be allowed to use a vague term such as abuse to cover all their attempts to kill the unlimited plan. Unlike people who mentioned 20GB usage ATT was curbing users at 2 GB. The push back was quick and successful. ATT will continue to seek a level that the users will tolerate and will later try again to reduce. Just like the Gas companies raising prices until we cut back on our driving, then wait until we adjust before attempting to increase them again.
 
Arbitration clauses in contracts are legally enforceceable. Sad but true.

I'm not that up in arms over the "unlimited" thing, although it does seem like a misnomer. I think the precedent which seems illegal is this part:



Having language that restricts how one is able to take a company to court seems...very much not okay.
 
Not even close.
Use 3GB/mo on the 3GB plan, and you're a valued customer.
Use 3GB/mo on the 'unlimited' plan, and you're a valued customer.

Use 4GB/mo on the 3GB plan, and you're an exceptionally valued customer because you just contributed another $10 toward their build-out costs.
Use 4GB/mo on the 'unlimited' plan, and you're a valued customer.

Use 20GB/mo on the 3GB plan, and they absolutely *love* you for the extra $170 you're paying.
Use 20GB/mo on the 'unlimited' plan, and you've tied up huge swaths of shared resources that you aren't meaningfully contributing toward increasing. (aka: a 'data hog')

AT&T (and Verizon) are building out their networks as quickly as they can. It can take upwards of two *years* to get the building permits needed to add a tower somewhere. Absent additional towers, there's only so much spectrum available. (After a point, adding towers won't help either.)

So in other words whatever the network condition is (as they say) if you pay extra ten bucks for every other 1 GB of data you used then GREAT KNOCK YUORSELF OUT - no network issues, not congestion etc.,

Sounds hypocritical.
 
What- A Big Corporation changing the deal?

Wow this has got to be the first time an International Corporation has advertised one thing and then deliver something far less due to the fine print in their sales contract.

AT&T's contract is one of adhesion. That means you had no bargaining power when you signed. Adhesion contracts are always construed against the maker, in this case AT&T. The contract language quoted in the article presupposes the user (you) are misusing or abusing the network. Thats what would commonly be understood by the average consumer. The average consumer would understand that "unlimited" means "unlimited". No throttling, because thats a limit.

AT&T will get sued. Whether it will be a class action or thirty million arbitrations is yet to be seen.
 
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JohnDoe98 said:
This analogy is not correct. Data is not a resource. AT&T does nothing more than just deliver the data.

I fail to see why Data not being a resource challenges the analogy. The distribution point seems to hold to both kinds of service. Your criteria for comparison seems rather arbitrary and self-serving. Say more if you want to persuade anyone there is something wrong with his water example.

It's just a bad analogy, that's all.
Look, I'm no fan of what AT&T is doing here, it should be known. Misleading advertising, not having the respect for their customers to deal with the problem(if there even is one) correctly, shady justice blocking contract terms(no class actions/arbitration clause) are at the forefront of how I think of AT&T now. That's the real issue.
Re the orig analogy, AT&T does not create the data(sanatize the water) or store the data(reservoir/water tower) they simply deliver the data(water mains/gravity). I do agree with the viewpoint though that when something is "free" or in this case unlimited it will tend to be wasted or abused by some.
 
AT&T clearly does not value its iPhone customers

It is amazing to me that all the downstream companies of the iOS eco-verse have not taken a clue from Apple. The focus should be on overall customer experience and only secondarily on the bottom line. That focus leads to a better return and better experience for both provider and customer.

I could not agree more. Companies that focus on doing the right thing reap the benefits of their actions and are financially successful. Others make money only as long as the customer has no other choice. When an alternative arrives, their revenue stream evaporates.

AT&T seems to have forgotten that it was the iPhone that saved their arse when they were getting crushed by Verizon. Now that they are in a good position again, they are turning their backs on the very customers that saved them.

I have never been throttled by AT&T but their greedy business practices are pissing me off (throttling at absurdly low levels, refusal to unlock out-of-contract iPhones, refusal to do international unlocks etc.). My contract will be up in a couple of months and I will be moving to Verizon or one of the pre-paid carriers like Straight Talk.
 
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over 100 million happy customers, minus the 30-40 whiners on this board who live to bash the company that partnered with Apple to change the smartphone business.

Well since we're pulling numbers out of thin air - 1billion unhappy customers... give or take 30-40 ATT PR associates paid to troll this forum on behalf of ATT!

Partnered with Apple indeed... Apple had a bidding war to see who gets to sell iPhones first... ATT simply won the bid... there is no PARTNERING here other than writing the largest check, regardless of quality of service, ability to deliver said service, or inability to upgrade the network at a rate commensurate with the number of 3G devices sold per month. ATT sold vaporware, did really well with sales, and then rather than building out the infrastructure, decided to change terms of the game.

ATT deserves everything coming to them... which is too bad because the companies they bough to become ATT actually treated customers well.
 
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