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Crowd Sourcing a Small Claims Court Playbook

ATT may not be subject to class action but imagine the cost of sending representatives to small claims court all over the country. We should pool our arguments and coach one another on what to do/argue in small claims court.

If ATT creates a loophole in the TOS, and unrealistically interprets "abuses of their system", they are still on the hook. This is subjective at best and dishonest at worst.

My issue is that I've "bought in" to a system and had the terms switched. ATT should pay the cost to terminate my plan and start up similar phones on another carrier.
 
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Funy how many people are defending AT&T as if they own it lol. Bottom line is that if the company said they are warning or throttling only the top 5% but send the warning message to mostly everyone with unlimited, then they are LYING and DECEIVING the public! They are going beyond the supposed 5%! I am leaving AT&T to a company which provides better reception and customer service. I would advice all unsatisfied customers to do the same.
 
Dude, GO TO VERIZON and complain about their antiquated network. It is so funny to listen to all these people who just love to bash AT&T. MOVE TO VERIZON !!! PLEASE - MOVE !!

or... do you actually want the faster AT&T Network and the ability to surf and talk at the same time :)

Save the "my contract doesn't expire until ...... " Verizon has had the iPhone for long enough that you can move or you CHOSE to stay for one reason or another.

Its not me saying "God Bless Verizon"-Verizon is awful too. Its me just...scratching my head...that someone likes a carrier to the point of fanboyism. AT&T is awful.

And I've used the LTE network on a friend's phone with Verizon...where it works, its darn good. But that's not enough to make me think that they're a good carrier anyway. Its a very expensive service, and that perk isn't enough to make me switch to Verizon if I didn't have Verizon already. AT&T will have LTE good. In fact, your limitations only apply to the current iPhone with the next gen crop of phones. I find it unlikely that the next iPhone on Verizon won't be able to talk and surf. Just a thought.
 
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Think of it this way: 8Mbps = around 3 gigabytes in 50 minutes. So one could use up their monthly 3GB plan in less than an hour. Thats an unrealistic measurement though. Maybe more realistic would be consuming your entire allotment streaming media in around 6 hours. Just some food for thought.

Hopefully you wouldn't repeat that mistake the following month.
 
Then I guess Verizon has to stop selling 3G phones, too. They've got pretty much the exact same throttling going on, and for the exact same reasons.

READ YOUR CONTRACT BEFORE YOU SIGN IT. If you didn't read it (and understand it), you shouldn't have signed it. If you did, then you're just whining about nothing right now because you knew that this was a possibility, and you signed it anyway.

Shill alert! Look over all the posts this guy has made over the last 2 years about ATT... he has been defending ATT against EVERY possible thing that people have complained about on here since July 2010... No one is THAT in love with ATT!

Oh - and since your advice is to read the contract... let me give you some advice as well... STUDY SCC and US CONTRACT LAW before you assume others have not read the contract. Just because it's in a contract, doesn't mean you can't challenge - and win - in court, if you know the relevant laws.

For example, Class Action Waivers are often found in arbitration agreements. Companies often require that people settle their issues through arbitration. Some states, such as California, have determined that the use of arbitration is unfair and the courts there will not enforce these provisions.

From ATT contract: 9.3.2 Governing Law
The law of the state of your billing address shall govern this Agreement except to the extent that such law is preempted by or inconsistent with applicable federal law. In the event of a dispute between us, the law of the state of your billing address at the time the dispute is commenced, whether in litigation or arbitration, shall govern except to the extent that such law is preempted by or inconsistent with applicable federal law.
 
god 300MB is nothing LOL

In the UK I"m with Three with the one plan and for 35 quid a month I get proper unlimited data (no limits whatsoever) price also includes tethering, i get 2000 minutes and 5,000 texts and I got the 32GIG iPhone 4S for only £149.00 too an amazing deal.
 
That means read your DAMN contracts before you sign 'em. This is why people were screwed in housing interests rates were damn near zero then bubbled. You were warned. Just like you don't own your iPad, Xbox, Windows.....you just have the liscence. Occupy these contracts folks.
 
The problem here is in the naming of the plan, by calling it an "Unlimited Plan" AT&T is making a claim about its service. Many companies have been sued and loss class action lawsuits based on failure to truthfully advertise their product, irregardless of the stipulations in the contract. An automobile company could just as easily put in their sales contract a clause stating "any death or injury incurred resulting from faulty manufacturing is the sole responsibility of the buyer and the manufacturer will not be held liable" that does not mean such a stipulation is ENFORCEABLE by law. The idea that simply because a company puts something in a contract, that it is somehow a freepass for them to screw people is just silly. Here's an apartment lease, by the way by signing the lease you are agreeing that the landlord has the right to install hidden cameras throughout your residence and broadcast your naked butt on the net, but because you signed it, totally ok! riiiiiiight! WRONG!
 
First, contract or no contract, it seems blatantly obvious that AT&T is throttling the unlimited users to usage amounts below their new tiered plans. That could actually get them in trouble.

Second, I understand that some in Congress are looking into these contracts that basically have a 'get out of jail free card' for the provider. What's the use of a contract when the protections only go one way?

I suggest that everyone write their reps in Confress to complain. Unless a law is passed that limits this type of contract this won't be the last of this type you see. You might also contact the new Consumer Protection Agengy and complain. Of course, if a Republican is elected look for that agency to be stripped of any powers, if it even is allowed to continue. But it's worth a try.
 
I'm not that up in arms over the "unlimited" thing, although it does seem like a misnomer. I think the precedent which seems illegal is this part:



Having language that restricts how one is able to take a company to court seems...very much not okay.

You can say anything you want in a contract, but it may not be legal or binding, and AT&T lawyers know this..... It's just up to Joe Shmoe to challenge these clauses...
 
over 100 million happy customers, minus the 30-40 whiners on this board who live to bash the company that partnered with Apple to change the smartphone business.

OH - So we should just bow down to AT&T and roll over and let them tell us that we are getting unlimited but not really getting unlimited. They told me they were going to provide unlimited. I know what unlimited means and it the definition does not equate with all the fine print and gobbledegook the lawyers write. Unlimited is unlimited. PERIOD.

What the lawyers write is misleading. So we should all just let them screw us because AT&T is so perfect because they partnered with Apple (which by the way isn't perfect either.)
 
They shouldn’t be aloud to call them Unlimited if they are not truly unlimited. Bell Canada and Rogers do the same thing as AT&T.
 
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But is AT&T's throttling of unlimited data users a violation of its contract with users? TOSBack is a website that tracks changes to the terms of service of various services, including both Apple and AT&T.

The contract from June 26, 2007 -- just a few days before the original iPhone went on sale -- includes a number of stipulations governing exactly how and why the iPhone's unlimited data plan can be restricted, including banning some video downloading and streaming. Most importantly, for customers now experiencing throttling, is this passage:
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Language similar to this continues in every draft of the contract through today's version. The current wireless customer agreement includes this language in section 6.2:
AT&T believes that it is well within its rights to throttle users on unlimited data plans, even as a Californian iPhone user won an $850 small claims judgement against the company over throttling. AT&T has promised to appeal. A class action suit might be the normal evolution of such a complaint, but AT&T's subscriber contract prohibits class action or jury trials, leaving arbitration and small claims as options for unhappy customers.

Even with this stipulation ATT is violating the contract terms unless they can PROVE that a user is using data in a way that is restricted under said contract. Using 3GB of data does not prove in ANY way that users are violating the contract terms. Sorry ATT but this won't cut it

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Then I guess Verizon has to stop selling 3G phones, too. They've got pretty much the exact same throttling going on, and for the exact same reasons.

READ YOUR CONTRACT BEFORE YOU SIGN IT. If you didn't read it (and understand it), you shouldn't have signed it. If you did, then you're just whining about nothing right now because you knew that this was a possibility, and you signed it anyway.

all you are doing is being a sheep in ATT's herd because you obviously haven't read the contract yourself. If you had you'd see that there is nothing in ATT's contract that explicitly states that using more than 3 GB of data in a month is abusing the network. WAKE UP
 
Well since we're pulling numbers out of thin air - 1billion unhappy customers... give or take 30-40 ATT PR associates paid to troll this forum on behalf of ATT!

Partnered with Apple indeed... Apple had a bidding war to see who gets to sell iPhones first... ATT simply won the bid... there is no PARTNERING here other than writing the largest check, regardless of quality of service, ability to deliver said service, or inability to upgrade the network at a rate commensurate with the number of 3G devices sold per month. ATT sold vaporware, did really well with sales, and then rather than building out the infrastructure, decided to change terms of the game.

ATT deserves everything coming to them... which is too bad because the companies they bough to become ATT actually treated customers well.

#1. My numbers were researched and is correct. I guess you need an excuse to to throw your lazy, unresearched, absurd number out there.

#2. They did partner with Apple, and other companies did say now. What do you think "partner" means? Once again, you refute nothing, leave out facts, and make up the rest.

#3. AT&T did a bang up job keeping up with a product that most people thought would be a fad (you think Verizon would have turned it down if they knew the sucess it would become?). In my opinion, given what we already know about the 2012 Verizon and Sprint capabilities, they would not have done as good of a Job as AT&T. Both Verizon an Sprint run slower networks, on older technology.

#4. If you think that AT&T is treating their customers bad because the are protecting the network speed and availability for the 99% by controlling the 1% who abuse their offering, the go back to business school.

#5. I won't even get into the problem with the hijacking of phones to tether and get around the cost.

#6. Sprint offers unlimited data. I am sure they would be happy to bring you on board for the slow ride. "Not throtled". Of course...

Bottom line, get facts before you post.
 
Its not me saying "God Bless Verizon"-Verizon is awful too. Its me just...scratching my head...that someone likes a carrier to the point of fanboyism. AT&T is awful.

And I've used the LTE network on a friend's phone with Verizon...where it works, its darn good. But that's not enough to make me think that they're a good carrier anyway. Its a very expensive service, and that perk isn't enough to make me switch to Verizon if I didn't have Verizon already. AT&T will have LTE good. In fact, your limitations only apply to the current iPhone with the next gen crop of phones. I find it unlikely that the next iPhone on Verizon won't be able to talk and surf. Just a thought.


The problem is again apparent in the statement "AT&T is awful". Compared to what? Research comparisons and stop reading and watching ADs from Verizon. Is AT&T perfect? No. Are they the best in most places? Most surveys say yes. They are faster, with more features. Do the drop more calls? Yes, a fraction of a percent difference than Verizon and i think that data is old at this point. Did a tidal wave of customers leave AT&T for Verizon and Sprint? No. They all could have left (if they have personal phones), but most have not. That speaks volumes for AT&T. Much louder than a few Verizon employees and some whiners on this board who just complain when AT&T has a headline here.
 
Shill alert! Look over all the posts this guy has made over the last 2 years about ATT... he has been defending ATT against EVERY possible thing that people have complained about on here since July 2010... No one is THAT in love with ATT!

Wow. I'm a 'shill' because I recommend reading and understanding a contract before signing it. Hmm. I guess that would make pretty much every lawyer in the world a 'shill', too. :rolleyes:

Oh - and since your advice is to read the contract... let me give you some advice as well... STUDY SCC and US CONTRACT LAW before you assume others have not read the contract. Just because it's in a contract, doesn't mean you can't challenge - and win - in court, if you know the relevant laws.

For example, Class Action Waivers are often found in arbitration agreements. Companies often require that people settle their issues through arbitration. Some states, such as California, have determined that the use of arbitration is unfair and the courts there will not enforce these provisions.

From ATT contract: 9.3.2 Governing Law
The law of the state of your billing address shall govern this Agreement except to the extent that such law is preempted by or inconsistent with applicable federal law. In the event of a dispute between us, the law of the state of your billing address at the time the dispute is commenced, whether in litigation or arbitration, shall govern except to the extent that such law is preempted by or inconsistent with applicable federal law.

Yeah, the contract recognizes the fact that you think you're pointing out here. The thing is, the clause the article referrs to isn't anything special so far as contract language goes. It's very likely to be boilerplate which has been tried, found valid, and refined against any of the situations where it was not. In fact, that's part of what section 9.3.2 (which you quoted above) does. The contract acknowledges the realities of the situation, and is written as such.
 
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The problem with these forms of ToS is that these companies draft them to basically inform the customer that they are buying into something that they agree to pay for for a term and that the customer is locked into paying it, but at any time they can alter that contract to fit their own needs.
If I walked into AT&T and handed them a contract that said, "I agree to pay you as a customer of AT&T but at any time given my own financial burden, I can reduce my payment for your services"
Do you think that would be agreeable?
Why is it always that the customer is contractually obligated to agree to pay for something but the provider can at any time change what the customer originally agreed to pay for?
They should not get to make that change without compensating the customer.
YES, they have the right to reduce the customer's service, but the customer equally has the right to demand compensation for that reduction to their service because the provider is no longer providing them with the same service level they agreed to pay for.

You are correct. You can offer them your contract and they have the right to turn it down, as you have the same right with their contract( tos). You do not have the right to make someone else sell you a product or service on your terms only. If you do not like the price or terms, do not buy it. Lol
 
all you are doing is being a sheep in ATT's herd because you obviously haven't read the contract yourself. If you had you'd see that there is nothing in ATT's contract that explicitly states that using more than 3 GB of data in a month is abusing the network. WAKE UP

Sorry, no. I *always* read contracts before I sign them. That's part of being an adult and taking responsibility for your actions and decisions. (Yep, I read the 60-some pages of my mortgage contract before I signed it, just like I read my cell phone contract before I signed it.)

If you sign a contract, you are acknowledging that you understand it and agree to its terms. If you sign it without having read it, but were given the opportunity to do so (which you were, by the way, when you were handed it to sign), you are bound by those terms regardless.

The contract doesn't have to explicitly list every possible scenario under which it can activate a clause. If it did, the simplest contract would be upwards of 1000 pages long. Instead, it lists categories which can trigger those clauses. Those categories are still fairly explicit.

If you *really* think the terms are unconscionable, or that AT&T is violating the terms of the contract, then go ahead and file suit. Otherwise, the adults here will just assume you're just whining because you weren't grown up enough to inform yourself, and your entitlement complex has left you feeling put upon. If you don't want to deal with the expense of lawyers, go file in small claims.
 
What an absolutely foolish viewpoint from Dan Frommer. What he says is not how any broadband Internet bandwidth is charged for or used. I have never heard his name before, but he clearly has no idea what he is talking about.

Actually, and this surprised me when I found out, your broadband wireless contract does have a usage limitation -- at least the ones I have had in recent years, (Comcast cable, AT&T DSL). The limit is really high, my current Comcast has a 25GB stipulation, but it is in there.
 
What I enjoy is the people who pretend to read the contracts and lambast others for allegedly playing stupid and allegedly not reading the contracts.

Why don't you tell me what you think the contract says, because it isn't obvious it says what you seem to think it does. The contract doesn't say that AT&T can do anything it wants to stop congestion. It says:



(ii) is non-applicable, and the question of prohibited use isn't our topic here. Denying service and/or terminating it isn't our concern either. That leaves limiting throughput for people whose usage AT&T believes is "adversely impact[ing] the wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network".

This is a legal contract, and the clauses have to be conscionable to be upheld. AT&T has to justify its beliefs, and it has to be able to justify that its conduct of limiting throughput is reasonable, like for instance, doing this during, and only during, congested period. Read my earlier post, it'll explain in more detail why the throttling behavior isn't a clear cut case.

Hmm. I'm confused as to what point you think you're making. You quote the applicable section and even dive down into it and eliminate the parts which don't apply here. That leaves you with the parts that *do* apply.

AT&T reserves the right to (i) limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny Service and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network and (ii) protect its wireless network from harm, which may impact legitimate data flows

Does highlighting the applicable sections in bold so they can be read as a contiguous unit help? The contract says, if they believe your usage of their network adversely impacts the service levels of said network, or hinders access to said network, they can limit throughput or the amount of data transferred. They'd be within their rights (as agreed to when you signed the contract) to cut you off after reaching the threshold they've determined starts to cause problems for the network. Instead, they're taking the lesser option and slowing you down.

Also, note that I italicized the word 'believes' in the contract quote. They don't need to prove it (in a court of law, or otherwise) to act on it. They simply need to believe that it is the case. Yes, that's a low bar, but (again), you agreed to it when you signed the contract.

AT&T doesn't have some nefarious plot to screw its customers over. They're doing what they can to provide reliable (and *available*) service to all of their customers, given the physical, and political (as in NIMBY) constraints on their network. ALL of the carriers take these same sorts of actions to preserve their respective networks. Verizon does the exact same thing. Sprint deals with it by providing uniformly slow access to it's significantly smaller subscriber base.
 
ATT Sucks, but better than Verizon

I don't have much of an issue with ATT, they at least have never screwed up my Bill, which Verizon (to the tune of hundreds of dollars) did Every month that I had their service. Add insult to injury when I had Verizon their service dropped almost every time I made a call - and I make very few calls.

Anyway, ATT f'ed me out of my unlimited plan when I tested the iPhone Hotspot feature. The reps promised me and noted my account that if I didn't like the hostspot feature they would put me back on the Unlimited plan. They lied and refused to honor their deal. Luckily, I rarely use more than 1.5 gigs a month, but it's the principal of the matter.

All US Cell Phone companies are garbage, I wish the FTC would do something, but they won't.
 
#4. If you think that AT&T is treating their customers bad because the are protecting the network speed and availability for the 99% by controlling the 1% who abuse their offering, the go back to business school.

Bottom line, get facts before you post.

Care to defend your alleged facts regarding your post? Define network abuse for us please. Also, as many have pointed out, the automatic throttling at > 3gb of use, on unlimited plans exclusively, doesn't seem to be about relieving network congestion, contrary to what AT&T is claiming, for reasons many of us has pointed out and that you neglect to address.

The fact is AT&T's practices don't seem to line up with the rhetoric they are throwing around.
 
I admit to not reading the other posts in this thread. Something I, personally, find annoying - but today I'm a hypocrite.

I am not personally affected by the limits/throttling - especially with the newest quota put forth by ATT. But I do find the phrasing in this interesting

"AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network."

Bold is mine. I think the heart of the issue here is that there are no actual proof/data points to this statement.

They sent me a text last month at 1.5 gb of data saying I was in the top 5% and that I could get throttled. I'm in NYC. I find that just about impossible.

If they aren't going to publish monthly reports (or provide usage summaries of their entire network by geo) on their website - than there's really no way to confirm or deny whether or not a) you are in the top 5% and b) if you are adversely affecting their network.

So in short - it really is just at their whim. And this I'm not fond of.
 
Hmm. I'm confused as to what point you think you're making. You quote the applicable section and even dive down into it and eliminate the parts which don't apply here. That leaves you with the parts that *do* apply.

Exactly, and context and interpretation will help clarify what those clauses mean; context and interpretation will help set the limitations that apply to those clauses. And as I'm sure you know, in a court of law, the judge will typically side with the interpretations given by the parties who did not draft the contract but are bound by it, especially if the people who draft the contract typically have far more influence in setting the terms and conditions of the contract, as AT&T clearly does. So, as long as the interpretations given by the users can be shown to be reasonable and fair, it'll be privileged in the courts.

Does highlighting the applicable sections in bold so they can be read as a contiguous unit help?

No, it just identifies the sections we already agreed to discuss. Your fancy bolding and italicizing doesn't add anything to the discussion.

The contract says, if they believe your usage of their network adversely impacts the service levels of said network, or hinders access to said network, they can limit throughput or the amount of data transferred.

Agreed, but within reason and subject to certain restrictions.

They'd be within their rights (as agreed to when you signed the contract) to cut you off after reaching the threshold they've determined starts to cause problems for the network. Instead, they're taking the lesser option and slowing you down.

No, that is not what people agreed to when signing the contract. The response has to be proportional and moderate. If AT&T can prevent denying you service through other means, like throttling, it has an obligation to take the lesser action to minimally impact your service. They can only deny you service if it is necessary for preserving the network's smooth functioning. That is what the contract says when suitably interpreted. In a court, they would have to demonstrate that denying you service was the only reasonable measure to take. The same applies to throttling. If they can maintain the integrity of the network by setting up throttling during peak hours, that is preferred to hard caps and month long throttles. Again, AT&T has to make a reasonable attempt to minimally impact your service. That is what is implied in the contract terms.

Also, note that I italicized the word 'believes' in the contract quote. They don't need to prove it (in a court of law, or otherwise) to act on it. They simply need to believe that it is the case. Yes, that's a low bar, but (again), you agreed to it when you signed the contract.

Again you are wrong. This is a legal contract and all terms within the contract has legal meaning. "Believes" doesn't mean they can just conjecture up any opinion, based on discrimination, superstition, etc. It has to be moderate and based on demonstrable facts. When I sign a contract, I am acting in good faith and expect that AT&T will only proportion it's beliefs based on evidence, not bias, greed, etc.

AT&T doesn't have some nefarious plot to screw its customers over. They're doing what they can to provide reliable (and *available*) service to all of their customers, given the physical, and political (as in NIMBY) constraints on their network. ALL of the carriers take these same sorts of actions to preserve their respective networks. Verizon does the exact same thing. Sprint deals with it by providing uniformly slow access to it's significantly smaller subscriber base.

I agree there is nothing nefarious. I think there is just blatant incompetence and greed. They are trying to push the limits. Verizon, and every ISP in Canada and most of the rest of the world, only throttles in proportion to network congestion. What I mean by this is that they turn off throttling when congestion is relieved. It isn't unreasonable to expect the same of AT&T, and as I have just shown you again, that's what the contract, when fairly interpreted, says.
 
I detest these writers who opine and stand with big corporations like ATT. I don't hate corporations and their unending greed - it's animalistic, darwinian capitalism at its best, and hell, they have a right to it. It does not mean they should do it. And it does not mean we should "get over our emotional battle and join 'them' in reality."

The reality is as follows: iPhones and current smartphones were not made to work on tethered plans. They were made to work with an unending stream of data. If the market were working in the right direction, we would be getting unlimited still today for $20 or even $10 a month. All carriers offering unlimited for a cheaper price to entice costumers. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. With all of them in a MONOPOLY ending unlimited contracts and charging the exact same price - giving costumers no choice or say in the matter. How do I know this? Because I come from a country where unlimited data is as reasonable as the AIR you breathe. The idea that you have to pay for GBs of data only suit people and fall as expected and acceptable in America. Believe me, if you do not know differently, this is not the way things should work. This is absurd.

ATT made 4 BILLION dollars in profit in 2011. Is this is a business that is suffering? Or whose networks are on the verge of collapsing due to overuse? I don't think so. Go ahead and get over your emotional battle about being abused if you want to believe the author of this article. Stay quiet and let every last cent be ripped out of you. Or rise up and sue ATT for the right to terminate your contract. This is my last year with ATT and probably with the iPhone. No upgrades for me.
 
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