Concert Observations

[HDFan]

I once read a review of a Lang Lang concert which I attended. Although Lang was in a tux the reviewer was shocked to see the physical gyrations which he made while he was playing. He seemed to feel that a concert player should be stiff and formal at all times.

It would be amusing to see him review a Cameron Carpenter, the punk organist, concert. (Cameron commissioned a $1.4 million traveling organ which can imitate the sound of many of the great organs so he doesn't have to learn how to play a specific instrument since they are all different). The reviewer seemed to oblivious to the fact that a concert is entertainment. It is not just the music - the visuals, costumes (or formal dress) the movements of the artist are all important, although maybe less so than the music.

Off topic here is an interesting video of Cameron playing 2 pianos at the same time:

Cameron Carpenter

For the extraordinary organist Cameron Carpenter a long-anticipated dream came true in 2014: the completion of his own instrument. ... ✓ Jetzt mehr erfahren!

www.sonyclassical.com

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I once read a review of a Lang Lang concert which I attended. Although Lang was in a tux the reviewer was shocked to see the physical gyrations which he made while he was playing. He seemed to feel that a concert player should be stiff and formal at all times.

If the "physical gyrations" detract - and distract - the audience from their enjoyment of the music, - which is why most people attended the concert in the first place, then, to my mind, they are out of place.

You attend the concert for the music, not for the attention seeking behaviour or conduct of a performer.

I'm not arguing that a concert player should, necessarily, be "stiff and formal", but I am arguing that a performer should not take away from the enjoyment of the music or seek to centre himself (for, I cannot imagine that such conduct would be deemed acceptable from a woman pianist) at the expense of enjoyment of the music.

...... The reviewer seemed to oblivious to the fact that a concert is entertainment. It is not just the music - the visuals, costumes (or formal dress) the movements of the artist are all important, although maybe less so than the music.

Here, (and I write as someone who attends classical concerts reasonably regularly), I must beg to differ.

The music is the point, which is why everything else should be (completely) subordinate to the music. I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't exist, but ist function is to serve the music, and most emphatically, not detract from it, or serve as a distraction from one's possible enjoyment of the music.

Yes, a concert is entertainment, but not at the cost of, or expense of, the music, which is the point of the whole thing.

 

[B S Magnet]

If the "physical gyrations" detract - and distract - the audience from their enjoyment of the music, - which is why most people attended the concert in the first place, then, to my mind, they are out of place.

I can’t speak for the reviewer or the audience present, but my sense is a paying audience — ostensibly, fans, aficionados, and the like — were already aware of who the performer was and what they might expect during a concert performance.

Which brings up “concert” and “performance”: is the former a subset of the latter, or would you hold these to be discrete fundamentally?

You attend the concert for the music, not for the attention seeking behaviour or conduct of a performer.

I attend a concert for the experience of the whole performance, come what may. Most of the time, there aren’t many surprises (which can either be “ok” or altogether “boring”, as reflected by the paucity of audience energy in that intangible, but very real performer-audience interplay).

Oftentimes, though, there are surprises — most of them memorable, positive, and/or amusing (and at least one I’ve witnessed, truly negative). Sometimes they come from the performer, from a technical glitch, or even from a gregarious audience member.

Whether that’s Ryuichi Sakamoto playing (R.I.P.) on two synced baby grand pianos facing each other; Pansy Division playing in a sweaty dive; Kirsty MacColl (also R.I.P.) singing in a breezy cantina; or Prefab Sprout at a town hall, I can anticipate a certain energy, vibe, and musical repertoire to arise from any of them. For any concert, I come to expect the unexpected flourishes which make witnessing that performance a memorable one.

If I want a rigid event with few to no surprises, I can invest in and set up a home listening room to mimic, spatially and digitally, the acoustics of my favourite concert hall and to listen to so many remarkable recordings of live performances (of the same) to have already been conducted and already been played. Whether that’s Stan Getz, João Gilberto, and Astrud Gilberto inside a NYC lounge in 1964, or a full-bore symphony orchestra at the Budokan, I can get most of the experience of having been present at the time of the recording by listening to the recording in a space set up for it.

But that’s most, not all. All means being there and expecting the unexpected — sometimes the truly unexpected.

I'm not arguing that a concert player should, necessarily, be "stiff and formal", but I am arguing that a performer should not take away from the enjoyment of the music or seek to centre himself (for, I cannot imagine that such conduct would be deemed acceptable from a woman pianist) at the expense of enjoyment of the music.

Again, by the sound of it, the reviewer was unprepared and came in with a set of routine expectations — some no doubt borne from rigid tradition — which were not met. I doubt the audience came away with the same disappointment, because for the audience and fans, there wasn’t an unexpected element in his performance’s gyrations (which, if he was worth his salt, wouldn’t negatively impact the music coming from it). If the music sounds no less good with eyes closed (or eyes unable to see), then the “detraction” would have been trivial to all but the unprepared.

Here, (and I write as someone who attends classical concerts reasonably regularly), I must beg to differ.

Please do. I am enjoying this sidebar!

The music is the point, which is why everything else should be (completely) subordinate to the music.

You and I know this isn’t entirely true.

We attend concerts to hear music within a particular space (re-)performed by a particular set of musicians and/or conductor (if there is one). We pay because Yo-Yo Ma is conducting, or maybe Philip Glass is conducting a retrospective of his collective works.

We pay for the engrossing experience of a hall’s acoustics, knowing there will be the occasional cough from an audience member somewhere, the odour of people wearing superfluous fragrances (both the fascinating and the off-putting), and also to see how other audience members present themselves. Sometimes, as with the sweaty bar, the audience engagement with the musicians is the point.
(Have we any They Might Be Giants fans in the house?)

We pay for lighting, which often helps to set a mood. We pay for the experience of the hall’s warning tones to return to one’s seat at end of intermission (assuming it’s not a general admission show where most are standing). We also once paid for a physical ticket, whose torn half we kept could be saved as a memento along with, if available, a programme guide and/or merchandise being sold.

We attend concerts not solely to hear music, but to witness a whole performance and everything surrounding it. We even pay for the preparation of attending ourselves and the travel to and from, including (possibly) a late supper. Please do correct me if I’m wrong!

I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't exist, but ist function is to serve the music, and most emphatically, not detract from it, or serve as a distraction from one's possible enjoyment of the music.

Again, close your eyes. If the music at a live performance feels no less mesmerizing, no less engrossing, no less visceral and emotional, then there is no detraction from an ancillary visual (which, not to belabour this further, is what the fans and devoted audience comes to expect from a particular performer or group).

 

[HDFan]

The music is the point,

So you just close your eyes to avoid the visual distractions? If so then you might as well just listen at home where a good system may give you equivalent, or sometimes even better, sound.

We attend concerts not solely to hear music, but to witness a whole performance and everything surrounding it.

Yes. The concert Hall itself which can bring great visual pleasure. Recently attended a Joshua Bell concert in a great rectangular concert hall seating thousands where you would need binoculars to actually see him even sitting in the lodge section. Certainly great sound but visually boring.

Compare that experience to one in a concert hall seating hundreds where you are never more than 75 feet from the performer and is visually stunning. For a Philip Philips concert I was seated no more than 5 feet away from him and we were on exactly the same level. At the end he gave everyone in my row fist bumps. I listen to his music all the time but that personal contact I will never forget.

I've seen Joshua bell in both locations. Assuming the audio experience is the same, there is no question about which performance I prefer.

 

[rm5]

Dunno how I got roped into this thread (it randomly appeared in my notifications)... but in any event, this is interesting.

Why should a reviewer be shocked at "physical gyrations?" There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and in fact, it's a way to feel the music in a deeper way. Consider how mundane (and unnatural) it would be if a performer was stiff and still. I physically couldn't do that.

Here's the problem: some people think that because it's a classical concert, that means that everything should be serious and formal, which is true to an extent, but that shouldn't be at the expense of the performer's ability or them feeling the music in a certain way. Same with singing while playing... what's wrong with that? I do that all the time!

Many non-musicians make these judgements based on what they think is the "right" way to perform, but they might not have the experience of performing.

EDIT: Sometimes, a performance is entertainment or background music, but this clearly wasn't one of those times.

 

[KaliYoni]

listen at home where a good system may give you equivalent, or sometimes even better, sound.

For shows with amplified sound, I agree. But for non-amplified concerts, I don't think the home experience is able to match the combination of non-electric instruments, the acoustic characteristics of the venue, the give-and-take between performers and audience, and the ability to focus on whatever I want, not what a producer or engineer wants to emphasize.

Same with singing while playing... what's wrong with that? I do that all the time!

As a keyboard player, you should check out some Glenn Gould, then.

You attend the concert for the music, not for the attention seeking behaviour or conduct of a performer.

I'm not arguing that a concert player should, necessarily, be "stiff and formal", but I am arguing that a performer should not take away from the enjoyment of the music or seek to centre himself (for, I cannot imagine that such conduct would be deemed acceptable from a woman pianist) at the expense of enjoyment of the music.

Does that also apply to conductors?

 

[eyoungren]

I went to a concert with my wife once. We saw Dead Can Dance (Lisa Gerrard and Brendan Perry) in Los Angeles. This was before the big 'breakup' back in 1997 I believe, but possible events BEFORE this concert did not help.

If you're going to see bands that play this style of music, or bands such as Clannad, Loreena McKennitt, etc, part of the 'show' is the costuming. The music is the centerpiece of course but the performers dress the part. Lisa Gerrard for instance generally always dresses as if she is part of some great ethereal choir.

Anyway, at this concert Lisa was on time. Brendan and some of the others were not. The concert got started about 30 minutes late when Brendan and the rest of the band rolled in dressed as if they had just come from a party on the beach - shorts, tank tops and flip flops.

The music was great, but except for Lisa, the attire was mood killing. It wasn't long after this concert that DCD broke up.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'm delighted to see that this topic has been turned into its own thread.

Now, I need to think about what it is I wish to say (write?), and how I wish to phrase it before posting a further reply.

 

[Silencio]

I don't think I have much to add after B S Magnet touched on so many aspects of the topic so eloquently.

It is interesting to see some of the extremes in performance and presentation. For example, you can have a band like the Flaming Lips, where their concerts feel like a maximalist, overstuffed circus, and you get just as caught up in the specacle as you might in the music. At the other extreme, an Autechre concert were Messrs. Booth and Brown perform in mostly total darkness, with zero light show and zero visuals, affording the audience no alternative but to lose themselves in the soundscapes washing over them.

I get that it's a bit trickier in the more staid and traditional classical world. I think the audience does bear some responsibility to know who they're seeing and what they should expect.

 

[B S Magnet]

As a keyboard player, you should check out some Glenn Gould, then.

Here to share the Glenn Gould love, in nothing less than glorious, analogue Kodachrome.

 

[KaliYoni]

you can have a band like the Flaming Lips, where their concerts feel like a maximalist, overstuffed circus

This also points to the importance of how promoters put shows together. Just one example: I saw Flaming Lips as an opener (!) for a minimalistic, desert-punk band, Thin White Rope (yes, this was back in the late 80s). Even in a club, Flaming Lips had a wild, psychedelic, prop-filled show. So Thin White Rope's performance was, to put it mildly, a bit of an anti-climax...

 

[HDFan]

I'm delighted to see that this topic has been turned into its own thread.

This was extracted from the "Words or phrases that annoy you" thread. The way to move off-topic items to a new thread is to report it to the moderators and request the cut/move.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

If the "physical gyrations" detract - and distract - the audience from their enjoyment of the music, - which is why most people attended the concert in the first place, then, to my mind, they are out of place.

You attend the concert for the music, not for the attention seeking behaviour or conduct of a performer.

I'm not arguing that a concert player should, necessarily, be "stiff and formal", but I am arguing that a performer should not take away from the enjoyment of the music or seek to centre himself (for, I cannot imagine that such conduct would be deemed acceptable from a woman pianist) at the expense of enjoyment of the music.

Eh???

If you just want to listen to music, then put a CD on at home. Or something. Concerts are a spectacle, a performance that isn't just about the sound, it's also about the setting (hence many concerts played in acoustically sub-optimal yet historically/culturally important venues), the orchestra, the performers. If someone is that caught up in their performance that they move about a bit then so what? If their behaviour helps enhance their individual brand, then good luck to them. Who is anyone to police their 'gyrations' or whatever? I mean honestly...

I'm off to listen to Handel at the Barbican tomoz night. I do hope there are some gyrations...

 

[Scepticalscribe]

This was extracted from the "Words or phrases that annoy you" thread. The way to move off-topic items to a new thread is to report it to the moderators and request the cut/move.

Thank you.

Actually, I have been following both discussions, and it is good to see that this (perhaps niche?) topic has been given its own thread.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Eh???

You know, it is possible - or, it ought to be possible - to allow for differing opinions.

It is one thing - and this is not confined to this thread - for someone to say that "I like this" or "I prefer something", but it is quite another to take issue with the fact that someone disagrees with you.

I'm off to listen to Handel at the Barbican tomoz night.

Enjoy the concert at the Barbican; I love Handel.

I do hope there are some gyrations...

No gyrations for me, thanks.

Not at a classical concert.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

To those who have argued "why not listen to CDs or music at home if it is all about - or, only about - the music" instead of attending live concerts, I attend live concerts to listen to the music, and to listen to how the actual live performance of that music - an individual, and entirely subjective performance (on the part of the performer and indeed, on the part of an audience member listening to this performance) may differ from what is on my CD or iTunes.

Yes, I get that a performance is entertainment, and that the idea of a "performance" includes more than music.

However, what is "more" than the music should not be at the expense of the music (although I understand that this may also be something of a subjective judgment).

However, personally, I don't much care for the sort of performance where the theatrics detract from the music, just as I don't much care for plays where the set and costumes and special effects detract from, - and distract from - the dialogue, narrative and actual acting performances.

Now, re music, I have noticed that some American artists, or performers, (and I have seen Mavis Staples, Marcus Miller, and Pink Martini, play live, among others), - and this is entirely to their credit - seem to believe in "giving a performance" and in engaging with their audience, giving value for money, and "delivering" a powerful performance, when they perform, in a way that some European artists could do well to learn from. (Yes, Michael Nyman, and Yann Tiersen, I'm thinking of you).

However, each to their own.

 

[rm5]

I went to see this singer Fatoumata Diawara the other day (which was an awesome show overall), but there were two glaring things about it that I found incredibly distracting:

1. The lighting, which kept sweeping across the venue - it made me feel dizzy, that part was really unenjoyable
   1. This isn't limited to this particular show - it happens ALL THE TIME, this distracting lighting
2. The canned backing vocals - yes, they used loops of pre-recorded backing vocals. How about just not using any canned loops and have it all be live?!
3. That poor keyboardist, he never got a chance to solo on any of the songs!

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

You know, it is possible - or, it ought to be possible - to allow for differing opinions.

It is one thing - and this is not confined to this thread - for someone to say that "I like this" or "I prefer something", but it is quite another to take issue with the fact that someone disagrees with you.

I have no problem with you having a different opinion, I just find your views bewildering thats all. I mean, having an issue with how someone chooses to play an instrument?? Does it really matter? As long as the music sounds great, then I don't care how people gyrate or otherwise. In fact I want to see more gyration. There's not enough gyration if you ask me. In society in general, not just classical music.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I have no problem with you having a different opinion, I just find your views bewildering thats all. I mean, having an issue with how someone chooses to play an instrument?? Does it really matter? As long as the music sounds great, then I don't care how people gyrate or otherwise. In fact I want to see more gyration. There's not enough gyration if you ask me. In society in general, not just classical music.

I think that context matters.

At a rock concert, of course I expect to see gyrations, and a wholly different atmosphere to that of a classical concert.

Now, nevertheless, I will readily concede and grant that classical music (especially in western Europe - Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have a different tradition, where going to classical concerts, ballet and opera is as normal as attending a football match, and all ages - from three to ninety and all social classes used to - or, at least, were enabled to - regularly attend, encouraged (and subsidised) by the state, as tickets were affordable) - has become far too middle class and reverential, and needs to try to become more accessible (and affordable) for those who do not hail from a middle class background.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I went to see this singer Fatoumata Diawara the other day (which was an awesome show overall), but there were two glaring things about it that I found incredibly distracting:

1. The lighting, which kept sweeping across the venue - it made me feel dizzy, that part was really unenjoyable
   1. This isn't limited to this particular show - it happens ALL THE TIME, this distracting lighting

Ouch.

There is a difference between atmospheric and intelligent lighting - which can enhance (and influence) the mood of a performance and disturbing and distracting lighting, which is wholly unnecessary.

• The canned backing vocals - yes, they used loops of pre-recorded backing vocals. How about just not using any canned loops and have it all be live?!

Are you serious?

Canned - canned?? - backing vocals at a live concert?

I agree completely with your reservations (and disbelief).

• That poor keyboardist, he never got a chance to solo on any of the songs!

I sympathise; a good keyboard player is brilliant, and one should have an opportunity to hear them play and allow them to display their mastery and virtuosity during the concert.

 

[eyoungren]

I think possibly one of the reasons people attend concerts or performances is because of the energy. This is a particular reason that I go anyway. CDs, even those recorded at live concerts, are great but I prefer to see how the sausage is made. And a concert, based on it's energy, is always doing to diverge in some way from a studio recording.

And then too, for me, there is a sort of underlying sadness when listening to CDs of a live performance or watching videos of recorded concerts. That's simply because I wasn't there to experience what I am hearing/seeing.

 

[eyoungren]

Are you serious?

Canned - canned?? - backing vocals at a live concert?

I agree completely with your reservations (and disbelief).

LOL.

Milli Vanilli.

 

[Richard8655]

Does that also apply to conductors?

This is a good point. I've seen incredible theatrics from some conductors. Gianandrea Noseda is a prime example, as he often clearly breaks out in an intense sweat as he gesticulates and gyrates at the podium with a series of extreme facial expressions.

I much prefer a calmer and balanced conducting style that doesn't distract or detract from the performance. Herbert Blomstedt is an example of that for me.

In my mind, a classical music concert is different from a rock concert where often theatrics IS the major component of the performance for entertainment value. To me classical music is, by its nature, more complex and complicated, requiring more from the audience's mental side and less from the visual side.

I think one of the reasons for Lang Lang's (and other's) theatrics is to draw in people who normally would be bored to death with classical music. Unfortunately with visual entertainment so pervasive in movies, animation, computer games, etc., it may be a valid attempt to encourage and expand interest in classical music.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

This is a good point. I've seen incredible theatrics from some conductors. Gianandrea Noseda is a prime example, as he often clearly breaks out in an intense sweat as he gesticulates and gyrates at the podium with a series of extreme facial expressions.

I much prefer a calmer and balanced conducting style that doesn't distract or detract from the performance. Herbert Blomstedt is an example of that for me.

Agreed.

In my mind, a classical music concert is different from a rock concert where often theatrics IS the major component of the performance for entertainment value. To me classical music is, by its nature, more complex and complicated, requiring more from the audience's mental side and less from the visual side.

Exactly.

Context is key, and one can expect different things form a classical concert (or, for that matter, from a jazz concert, and jazz's roots grew out of underground and café music, played, performed and composed by people who were - by their very definition in law, culture and society - very much outsiders) than from a rock, or pop, concert.

This is not to argue for ossification of classical music, but it is to say that I will expect different forms of behaviour from the musicians, conductor, (and indeed, audience) when I attend a classical concert, to when I attend more popular forms of music.

Trad music - for instance - traditionally, (all puns intneded) welcomes a more enthusiastic and engaged response from an audience than would be found from the audience attending a classical music concert; then again, a lunch time classical concert will be a more relaxed - and informal - event than would an evening classical concert.

And there are some concerts that I would choose never to attend.

However, some of the more interesting interpretations can come from forms of music which are hybrids - and this can show - sometimes wonderfully, sometimes uncomfortably - when they give live performances.

 

[Abdichoudxyz]

I think that context matters.

At a rock concert, of course I expect to see gyrations, and a wholly different atmosphere to that of a classical concert.

Isn't that more about engendered socialisation than anything else? Audiences at early European classival music concertns would have been genteel upper class types, so 'correct' behaviour was incredibly important to them. I like to think society has thankfully moved on. I attended last night's Handel concert in jeans and trainers. There were whistles and cheers from the audience at the end. How very unseemly...

Personally I found it dissapointing. I felty the tempo too 'rushed', and the horns were very off; duff notes, too harsh and strident a sound, overpowered the rest of the orchestra.

On a more positive note, the contra-bassoon was one of very few remaining Baroque instruments still in use. Such a rich, warm sound.

The toilets were a joke though. Massive queue for the womens, only two out of eight wash basins in use in the mens. Very poor. Expected better at such a prestigious venue tbh.