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My guess Microsoft is facing the same issue every other PC manufacturer faces: Drivers. Some of the Windows code base is so old that writing drivers gets tricky. Microsoft really needs to pull an Apple and say we are no longer supportting devices more than "X" years old for new versions of the OS.
 
I'm not surprised. Microsoft's consoles have been steadily getting worse and worse build quality every generation. The first xbox was a tank. The 360 had the RROD issue and wasn't solved until the Xbox 360S was released. The Xbox One has power supply issues.

I wouldn't touch a Microsoft product anymore then I would consider buying an imitation purse on the streets of Italy while visiting.
 
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I wonder how much Apple paid for this?


(For those who are comically challenged, this was a joke.)

Who are you calling comically challenged? I'll go toe to toe with ANYONE comically.

I'll lose, but I never said that I was smart.
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Wouldn't a competent salesman take new information and adjust his recommendation accordingly? I guess he's spineless if he does and stupid if he doesn't.

Sort of depends on what he was saying before the notice came across. If he was describing features and relating performance characteristics, and he was giving accurate information, then I have no problem with him changing gears on news that was just released.
 
I had to return the surface pro 4 (purchased November 2015) two times. Just gave up on it when it first launch.

If I'm paying $1299 plus $130 for a keyboard (the 256gb SSD/8gb) version. I expect better. (Got it for $1169 plus $120 with student discount)

It's a great looking device. Fast. But it shut down on me and I couldn't reboot. Had to google how to get it booted up again and reformat etc. wasted like 6 hours of my time.

When the new surface laptop (2017) came out. I was excited. But in the end just passed on it. I got the Lenovo 720 13.3 laptop with the intel core i5 256/8gb ram for only $635 at Best Buy (with the sale plus the stackable $125 student discount). It runs great. A little fan noise but that really the only complaint.

Cause I rather live with a $635 laptop that pretty good than pay $1300 for surface laptop that isn't perfect.

My mid 2013 MacBook Air with 256ssd/8gb ram I got for $1400 in June 2013 still runs very well. So that laptop still has legs after 4 years.

The surface laptops may not last 3 years.
 
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Microsoft is slowly but surely declining. I told users on MacRumors a long time ago to let go of the brand and start transitioning and that was met with intense resistance. I warned them to not buy Windows Mobile or the Surface ARM tablets as they would be abandoned. They laughed and shortly after Microsoft threw in the towel.

Fast forward a few years and Microsoft is back at it again using an established brand name like Surface to build experimental products that won't be around too long. SurfaceBook is a gimmick that will not survive another 3 years. Why? Apps mostly and the detachable screen is something rarely used. Surface Studio starting at $3000? Forget about it. The software is a weak link as well. Windows 10 is nothing more than a refined hot mess! It is nothing more than a orgy of convoluted interfaces where you have settings and control panels. The list can go on and on.

Microsoft needs to focus on what they do best which is software. Build a new OS from the ground up and get folks transitioning to it. Until then, nothing but rehashed garbage year in and year out.

Discuss.
 
Microsoft is slowly but surely declining. I told users on MacRumors a long time ago to let go of the brand and start transitioning and that was met with intense resistance. I warned them to not buy Windows Mobile or the Surface ARM tablets as they would be abandoned. They laughed and shortly after Microsoft threw in the towel.

Fast forward a few years and Microsoft is back at it again using an established brand name like Surface to build experimental products that won't be around too long. SurfaceBook is a gimmick that will not survive another 3 years. Why? Apps mostly and the detachable screen is something rarely used. Surface Studio starting at $3000? Forget about it. The software is a weak link as well. Windows 10 is nothing more than a refined hot mess! It is nothing more than a orgy of convoluted interfaces where you have settings and control panels. The list can go on and on.

Microsoft needs to focus on what they do best which is software. Build a new OS from the ground up and get folks transitioning to it. Until then, nothing but rehashed garbage year in and year out.

Discuss.


This was more or less what I was about to write, I thought Microsoft would transition to Linux after Windows 7, they didn't.
If you argue with people who use Windows they say Windows 10 is soooo much better but I just have to remind them a few things and they shut up.

Things like:

Windows Update, it's been a mess since forever, I just can't believe I am looking at Windows Update and the progress bar and % are stuck to zero while I have my eye on how much data is downloaded, no data has been downloaded in the time it started yet it jumps to lets say 15%, makes me mad each and every time.

Trackpad driver sucks.

Change of the start menu, it's a total mess now.

Settings and control panels, WTF.

Windows registry, hahahhahha.

And so on.....
 
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Maybe I'm just an outlier but I feel like I've had bad experiences with Apple stuff (is this higher than normal?):
  • New 2017 5K iMac at work has been having trouble with the bluetooth going haywire and will repeatedly type things, pop up special characters, take 10-15 seconds to type something, disconnect from one of my AirPods (battery is fine), and stop the mouse from moving randomly on a fresh install.
  • iPad Pro 10.5" just came back from being repaired the other week because the Lightning port went bad and it wouldn't charge
  • AirPods sometimes have issues disconnecting sporadically while I'm running
  • iPhone 7 has been great
  • Wife's iPhone SE has been great
  • Apple TV 4 has been great
  • iPhone 6s had the overheating home button and random rebooting issue and was replaced
  • Apple Watch was flawless but has a hairline crack down the side from nicking it on my refrigerator door handle
  • iPad Air 2 was great
  • iPhone 6 Plus had issues crashing all the time and was quite unstable
  • iPad Mini 2 was good
  • Late 2012 iMac at work had display image retention issues that were never resolved (it wasn't too bad but apparent since I do design)
  • Apple TV 3 was good
  • iPhone 5 was replaced because the sleep/wake button stopped working
  • Wife's iPhone 5 had the battery replaced for free because it crapped out
  • Mid-2012 retina MBP at home had it's display replaced because it was exhibiting even worse image retention.
  • iPhone 4s was fine.
  • iPad 2 was fine.
  • iPhone 4 had some reception issues due to the antenna bands but I got a free bumper that helped, lol.
  • iPad was good
  • iPhone 3GS was good
  • Early 2008 MBP was good for a long time, then had the nVidia bug and was repaired (my grandpa owned it then)
  • iPhone 3g was good
  • iPhone had little bubbles under the display all over and was replaced
 
Microsoft is slowly but surely declining. I told users on MacRumors a long time ago to let go of the brand and start transitioning and that was met with intense resistance. I warned them to not buy Windows Mobile or the Surface ARM tablets as they would be abandoned. They laughed and shortly after Microsoft threw in the towel.

Fast forward a few years and Microsoft is back at it again using an established brand name like Surface to build experimental products that won't be around too long. SurfaceBook is a gimmick that will not survive another 3 years. Why? Apps mostly and the detachable screen is something rarely used. Surface Studio starting at $3000? Forget about it. The software is a weak link as well. Windows 10 is nothing more than a refined hot mess! It is nothing more than a orgy of convoluted interfaces where you have settings and control panels. The list can go on and on.

Microsoft needs to focus on what they do best which is software. Build a new OS from the ground up and get folks transitioning to it. Until then, nothing but rehashed garbage year in and year out.

Discuss.

I wish I could drop Windows. But like a bad rash it won't go away. While I can program for android, Mac and iOS on the Mac I can't program AMX and Crestron on Mac and that is my money maker. I do a lot of module development for AMX with Duet and Crestron using SIMPL# (Visual Studio 2008 C# with a Crestron plugin). Technically Duet is Eclipse with a plugin but I can't separate the plugin and install it on a macOS version of Eclipse.
 
Maybe I'm just an outlier but I feel like I've had bad experiences with Apple stuff (is this higher than normal?):
  • New 2017 5K iMac at work has been having trouble with the bluetooth going haywire and will repeatedly type things, pop up special characters, take 10-15 seconds to type something, disconnect from one of my AirPods (battery is fine), and stop the mouse from moving randomly on a fresh install.
  • iPad Pro 10.5" just came back from being repaired the other week because the Lightning port went bad and it wouldn't charge
  • AirPods sometimes have issues disconnecting sporadically while I'm running
  • iPhone 7 has been great
  • Wife's iPhone SE has been great
  • Apple TV 4 has been great
  • iPhone 6s had the overheating home button and random rebooting issue and was replaced
  • Apple Watch was flawless but has a hairline crack down the side from nicking it on my refrigerator door handle
  • iPad Air 2 was great
  • iPhone 6 Plus had issues crashing all the time and was quite unstable
  • iPad Mini 2 was good
  • Late 2012 iMac at work had display image retention issues that were never resolved (it wasn't too bad but apparent since I do design)
  • Apple TV 3 was good
  • iPhone 5 was replaced because the sleep/wake button stopped working
  • Wife's iPhone 5 had the battery replaced for free because it crapped out
  • Mid-2012 retina MBP at home had it's display replaced because it was exhibiting even worse image retention.
  • iPhone 4s was fine.
  • iPad 2 was fine.
  • iPhone 4 had some reception issues due to the antenna bands but I got a free bumper that helped, lol.
  • iPad was good
  • iPhone 3GS was good
  • Early 2008 MBP was good for a long time, then had the nVidia bug and was repaired (my grandpa owned it then)
  • iPhone 3g was good
  • iPhone had little bubbles under the display all over and was replaced

Humans are imperfect, and anything we build is going to be imperfect, especially if we want things to be affordable to the common person. It's really just a question of overall reliability over time. There's always going to be one person with issues.

Heck, the intern who sits in the cubicle next to me said her Toyota Corolla is a lemon car that had tons of issues, even though overall the Corolla is probably one of the most reliable cars on the planet.

MS' problem is that there is a statistically significant number of people with issues. CR wouldn't remove their recommendation over a few lemon units.
 
Humans are imperfect, and anything we build is going to be imperfect, especially if we want things to be affordable to the common person. It's really just a question of overall reliability over time. There's always going to be one person with issues.

Heck, the intern who sits in the cubicle next to me said her Toyota Corolla is a lemon car that had tons of issues, even though overall the Corolla is probably one of the most reliable cars on the planet.

MS' problem is that there is a statistically significant number of people with issues. CR wouldn't remove their recommendation over a few lemon units.
Yeah, I understand, it just seems like I somehow get the shaft more than average and since I'm a technically minded person I can't imagine what some of these other people must be going through trying to debug things in terminal or clearing hidden bluetooth profiles or the hoops I've had to jump through with AppleCare trying different things or whatever other nonsense that someone like my grandma would have given up on and bought something else.
 
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Isn't it likely these were warranty replacements?
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Sounds like cr is bias.

Just curious--how old are you? I see this particular illiteracy all over the internet, and I was wondering if people outgrow it by the time they graduate high school.
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Consumer Reports is better than most, but after they rushed out that hit piece they did on MBPro TB battery life, I lost of ton of respect for them.

Was it false?
 
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Isn't it likely these were warranty replacements?
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Just curious--how old are you? I see this particular illiteracy all over the internet, and I was wondering if people outgrow it by the time they graduate high school.
[doublepost=1502410689][/doublepost]

Was it false?
old enough.
 
Anymore I don't know who to trust as far as recommendations for computers/phones/notepads go. Consumer Reports hasn't ever been that someone. The (apparent) independent reviewers of the 80's, 90's and early 2000's are either gone, retired or ignored. Perhaps this is with good reason, maybe they were always just over-rated and I didn't know better. And it seems that the new crop of tech reporters want to make sure they get paid for favorable tweets, website and Facebook reviews. I have long had a problem with Consumer Reports in that frequently price is an over-riding factor. They'll recommend an ok cheap product rather than a more expensive, better built and more functional one. To me, value is more than the dollar output you have to put out when you initially buy that product. If I can really use and update it for years rather than needing (instead of just wanting) to buy a new one then I don't consider it too expensive.

I will admit that the rumored price of the next full iPhone (not the 7s variant) has me wondering if they've pushed the price too far for me. Especially when some tech mags are saying that with the 2019 model the price probably will come back down as OLED technology becomes cheaper. I guess I'll find out next month.
 
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My wife's Surface Pro 4 SSD died a few days out of warranty. It cost $450 to "repair" (swap out entire device for refurb). I was not too happy, as it was VERY buggy for the first 4 months. Constant hard reboots until they finally fixed the firmware (SP4 had notoriously buggy firmware at launch). Months of hard reboots couldn't have been kind to the SSD, though I know there's no moving parts like traditional drives.

That being said, we still love the form factor and devices. We've had 4 with the 1 failure.

Now, I've also had my share of problems with iPhones over the years. Batteries shutting down at random times, broken home button, broken power button, loose Lightning port. And I've also had friends with all of these same problems.

I'd still say Apple is more reliable, as the devices didn't fully break.
 
Totally agree with this, I'm on my third Surface in 5 months.

You know what they say about making the same choice and expecting a different result...
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This has nothing to do with software - nor should a PC break because you didn't update. This is hardware related.

I've had 6 different surface devices in the past 5 years, have experienced countless problems with them and have never been happy with a single one.

And yet you keep buying them? Why?
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Maybe I'm just an outlier but I feel like I've had bad experiences with Apple stuff (is this higher than normal?):
  • New 2017 5K iMac at work has been having trouble with the bluetooth going haywire and will repeatedly type things, pop up special characters, take 10-15 seconds to type something, disconnect from one of my AirPods (battery is fine), and stop the mouse from moving randomly on a fresh install.
  • iPad Pro 10.5" just came back from being repaired the other week because the Lightning port went bad and it wouldn't charge
  • AirPods sometimes have issues disconnecting sporadically while I'm running
  • iPhone 7 has been great
  • Wife's iPhone SE has been great
  • Apple TV 4 has been great
  • iPhone 6s had the overheating home button and random rebooting issue and was replaced
  • Apple Watch was flawless but has a hairline crack down the side from nicking it on my refrigerator door handle
  • iPad Air 2 was great
  • iPhone 6 Plus had issues crashing all the time and was quite unstable
  • iPad Mini 2 was good
  • Late 2012 iMac at work had display image retention issues that were never resolved (it wasn't too bad but apparent since I do design)
  • Apple TV 3 was good
  • iPhone 5 was replaced because the sleep/wake button stopped working
  • Wife's iPhone 5 had the battery replaced for free because it crapped out
  • Mid-2012 retina MBP at home had it's display replaced because it was exhibiting even worse image retention.
  • iPhone 4s was fine.
  • iPad 2 was fine.
  • iPhone 4 had some reception issues due to the antenna bands but I got a free bumper that helped, lol.
  • iPad was good
  • iPhone 3GS was good
  • Early 2008 MBP was good for a long time, then had the nVidia bug and was repaired (my grandpa owned it then)
  • iPhone 3g was good
  • iPhone had little bubbles under the display all over and was replaced

There are going to be manufacturing problems. Not every device can be made identically to every other one. Based on the number of devices you've owned, you seem to have a pretty good track record for positive experiences.

As for the Bluetooth issue, could it be signal interference? People sometimes forget that wireless devices use an invisible technology... and many devices in close proximity, or lots of devices sharing the neighbouring frequency, may affect each other.
 
My guess Microsoft is facing the same issue every other PC manufacturer faces: Drivers. Some of the Windows code base is so old that writing drivers gets tricky. Microsoft really needs to pull an Apple and say we are no longer supportting devices more than "X" years old for new versions of the OS.

This is key. Even a $299 laptop at Costco comes with 4 GB RAM these days so you need a 64-bit OS. Why are they STILL releasing/supporting 32? I'm not saying that 64 is faster, better, or less likely to have problems but I am saying that offering both encourages developers to either go for the lowest common denominator (32) or to require two versions of key components like drivers which literally takes twice as long to QA test (hours per tester) or shortens the amount of testing in order to meet release commitments. Windows XP had a 64-bit version. Why are they STILL trying to be compatible with 10+ -year old software that can't really benefit from computers 10-50 times faster? They're spending a lot of time and resources on bloating their system to support antiquated designs.
 
It's revealing that this story didn't make the front page of MacRumors - - every positive story regarding the Surface does, but somehow this negative one didn't.

It will soon be time to change the name of this site to MacTrolls.
 
Although Apple Mac is not perfect, it is simply the best user friendly and secured computer in the world like iPhone. Unless I have to use Windows for my personal use, I would never touch and recommend any Microsoft computer devices. I agree with the article and the Computer Review.

Not going to disagree that Macs are great, but my problem with Apple is they are too constraining. You have way more options for devices on the other side. There is nothing comparable to a Surface Pro from Apple. You have to buy two devices and split your work between them plus carry two devices for what with Microsoft you can do with one.

I haven't consider CR a source for making buying decisions since the '90's, so I wouldn't normally consider something like this pulling of a recommendation as being meaningful. But it's also not surprising to see this, as I believe MS has had issues with their in-house Surface products, iteration to iteration. And I'm not just talking about 2 years into ownership.

I agree. I joined CR about 6 months back because we had to make some purchases of things they tend to be expert on... cars, matresses, etc. I found their information to be largely high level and superficial, and in some cases just not accurate. They have been left behind as most consumers now will turn to something like Amazon's feedback (which is an order of magnitude better than anything CR will provide) or other similar direct user feedback mechanisms. I have canceled CR and largely think they are useless.

That said, I do believe that Microsoft has had some reliability issues when they release new models. But, that is different from how good the products are. If you recall, JD Power and Associates, who I have a lot more confidence in, ranked the Surface Pro above the iPad. There was a flurry of rants here about that a few months back. CR is saying the products are unreliable where JD is saying customers love them. You can process that however you want. I love my Surface Pro way more than any Mac I've owned.

Microsoft is slowly but surely declining. I told users on MacRumors a long time ago to let go of the brand and start transitioning and that was met with intense resistance. I warned them to not buy Windows Mobile or the Surface ARM tablets as they would be abandoned. They laughed and shortly after Microsoft threw in the towel.

Fast forward a few years and Microsoft is back at it again using an established brand name like Surface to build experimental products that won't be around too long. SurfaceBook is a gimmick that will not survive another 3 years. Why? Apps mostly and the detachable screen is something rarely used. Surface Studio starting at $3000? Forget about it. The software is a weak link as well. Windows 10 is nothing more than a refined hot mess! It is nothing more than a orgy of convoluted interfaces where you have settings and control panels. The list can go on and on.

Microsoft needs to focus on what they do best which is software. Build a new OS from the ground up and get folks transitioning to it. Until then, nothing but rehashed garbage year in and year out.

Discuss.

I'm not sure what Microsoft you've been watching, but to me Microsoft since their current CEO came in has been making some major strides and showing real innovation. In contrast, supply chain Tim has done a great job of continuing to plod along on the success of Jobs. I'm moving from Apple back to Microsoft and I couldn't be more delighted with the experience.

No it won't.

Because the MPB is actually a product people are passionate about, hence it gained media storm hype.

The Surface is just another Meh Too product. It will be a media drizzle with light showers. No storm.

Just exactly hos is the Surface Pro a "me too" product. Apple has nothing that compares. The other products from Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, Acer, etc. that are comparable all came out after Microsoft released the reference design. You can't be called "me too" if you defined the category the other offerings are in. The MBP hasn't changed much for years other than the goofy touch bar that no one seems to like. I think Apple still has a lot of very passionate customers, but much of that passion is based on Apple from the past, and not Apple of today.

Once you try Mac, you do not want Windows, even for free.

You are wrong in at least one case... my own. And I doubt I'm the only one. I've seen many folks on here post their frustration with Mac's lack of progress and innovation. You've got products that go many years without update. You've got a refusal by Apple to embrace technologies like touch and pen on the Mac line. So I would say maybe once you go Mac, you might blindly follow Apple and lose all perspective on reality.
 
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How cute :) interesting how so many here discrediting CR over the MacBook battery issues , suddenly have change thier tune :)

Only owned a surface for a short while and my MacBook definitely was a better built device. Reliability is based on usage patterns though , interesting was the next offering from Microsoft will be
 
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