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Mark my words - Apple will be cutting the exclusivity ties in 9 months if this model bombs...
To what end?

Every major carrier in the US uses the same upgrade rules.

So if Apple lets Verizon sell the iPhone, and everyone goes over to Verizon next year, then the following year, those people will be in the exact same boat they are now with AT&T -- unable to get a subsidized upgrade because they haven't been in their contract long enough.

The only alternative Apple has is to sell the iPhone directly for full price (like they did with the original one -- totally bypass the carriers and their stupid, confusing subsidies). But the full price of the iPhone 3Gs is $599, and isn't the whole point behind this thread that people don't want to pay $599?
 
Changing the carrier won't do anything - chances are most carriers would take advantage of the phone's popularity as an excuse to gouge. Either way, Apple would still make its buck.
 
To what end?

Every major carrier in the US uses the same upgrade rules.

So if Apple lets Verizon sell the iPhone, and everyone goes over to Verizon next year, then the following year, those people will be in the exact same boat they are now with AT&T -- unable to get a subsidized upgrade because they haven't been in their contract long enough.

The only alternative Apple has is to sell the iPhone directly for full price (like they did with the original one -- totally bypass the carriers and their stupid, confusing subsidies). But the full price of the iPhone 3Gs is $599, and isn't the whole point behind this thread that people don't want to pay $599?

We have already seen the kind of pull the iPhone has had for AT&T. If Apple wishes to remain exclusive with a single carrier and wants to focus on sales, they could easily negotiate a 1 year contract only for the terms of having the iPhone exclusive on that carrier. This would increase the sales for Apple or at least keep them constant and it would still bring over a lot of new customers to whatever network they wish to be with. Not saying this will happen, but it is something Apple could do in their own best interest of selling as many units as possible for every update to the iPhone.
 
[Question] Primary line isn't eligible, other lines are.

Here's a question for anyone in the know. This seems perfectly simple and fair to me:

1. I have 5 iPhones on my family plan.
2. Two of the iPhones are 3G - purchased a launch last year, and not eligible for upgrade until July and sometime in 2010 (?)
3. The other three are gen 1 iPhones and ALL eligible for an upgrade. NONE of these lines are going to be upgraded.

Can't I just purchase the phones from Apple on the eligible lines and activate them on the lines where I WANT to use them?? ATT gets their contract, I get my phones, life is good.

If the answer is NO, then this is one messed up process.
 
Out of curiosity (since you can upgrade your primary line only one year after your last upgrade), does the monthly service for your primary line cost $100+?

Yes it does. I have a higher minute plan than the standard. That is the only thing I can base it on is that the primary line is over $100 and the other line isn't. Still a dumb way to calculate upgrade time but I guess they have felt that they had made enough money on that one line allowing the upgrade....still silly though.
 
I think that o2 have done a very stupid thing be not cutting the price of the 3g iphone and making the 3Gs more expensive than in the states. I know 5 or 6 people who were waiting for the price to come down before they bought one. If the iphone 3g was £50-60 more people would get one and o2 would be the winner. There market share would increase. So why not?:eek:
 
Here's a question for anyone in the know. This seems perfectly simple and fair to me:

1. I have 5 iPhones on my family plan.
2. Two of the iPhones are 3G - purchased a launch last year, and not eligible for upgrade until July and sometime in 2010 (?)
3. The other three are gen 1 iPhones and ALL eligible for an upgrade. NONE of these lines are going to be upgraded.

Can't I just purchase the phones from Apple on the eligible lines and activate them on the lines where I WANT to use them?? ATT gets their contract, I get my phones, life is good.

If the answer is NO, then this is one messed up process.

This is exactly what I was hoping to do. I have 4 phones on my account. 1 first gen iphone that qualifies for upgrade...which will get upgraded..1 3g that says I can upgrade in december.. and 2 other phones that will not get upgraded because they belong to a couple of 80 year olds.

Cant I just activate under another number and switch??
 
This is exactly what I was hoping to do. I have 4 phones on my account. 1 first gen iphone that qualifies for upgrade...which will get upgraded..1 3g that says I can upgrade in december.. and 2 other phones that will not get upgraded because they belong to a couple of 80 year olds.

Cant I just activate under another number and switch??
I honestly don't see why not....You will be paying the same bill
 
I'm getting more upset by all of this as we get closer to launch day. I would like to get AT&T and Apple's attention. So, please read this blog post http://bit.ly/cLPFk and share it on your social networks if you feel the same.
 
I honestly don't see why not....You will be paying the same bill

I guess I just don't want to pay for a 3rd iPhone plan if I only have 2 phones? Not sure if that would even matter. Guess I should just drive over to AT&T and find out...
 
but since Apple has decided to keep AT&T as the sole carrier for their most precious and innovative product, I have a big problem with this.

not entirely true. ATT has a limited exclusive contract on the phones. unlike say the Sidekick which has been and will probably always be a T-Mobile device.

I truly believe Apple chose AT&T as their initial career because they were a guinea pig. Everyone knows Verizon is #1 when it comes to coverage and service in the U.S.

It is no secret that Verizon wanted control over the design if they were the carrier for the phone, did not at the time support or want to support GSM which is more world wide standard which would have forced the creation of two model lines of the phone which Apple did not want to do, particularly for a product they couldn't guarantee success on.

The point is they have an obligation to be BETTER than other carriers, because they carry the best phone in the world.

I disagree with that 100%. They merely shouldn't be any worse. and they are not. that said, I do agree with the notion that they might want to do some heavy thinking now, either by improving coverage, lowering rates, etc if they want to keep all of the new customers they have gotten thanks to the phone or they may find a fair number switching when it is legally and technologically possible

it certainly is not worth the ass-raping that AT&T will give you if you decide to be a spoiled brat and upgrade immediately

unfair. ATT is using the same rules as all other phones. I up my contract and get a free LG and then in 6 months want a better LG they aren't going to give me that one for free too cause I haven't paid them back for the first one. so why should iphone people be treated better than me and get a subsidized phone every freaking year even though we are both on a 2 year contract.

What about unlocked iPhones 3G S from AT&T? Is that possible? How much could it cost?

no such thing. there's a no contract phone but it is still tied to ATT if it is bought in the US. and unlocking it still voids all warranties etc
 
To expand on that:

If you have a corporate discount on your personal line of service (i.e. the bill is in your name), you can upgrade at the Apple Store. (This wasn't the case when the iPhone 3G launched last year, but Apple and AT&T fixed that later that summer).

If you have a corporate discount and the bill is in the name of your company, then you'll have to go to AT&T.

Yes. Thanks for clarifying. :) They will indeed let you do this if your corp discount is in your own name, not your company's.
 
Yes it does. I have a higher minute plan than the standard. That is the only thing I can base it on is that the primary line is over $100 and the other line isn't. Still a dumb way to calculate upgrade time but I guess they have felt that they had made enough money on that one line allowing the upgrade....still silly though.

I think it's sorta silly also, but look at it like this:

If they took your total bill and divided it between all phones on the plan, would you still generate 100+ dollars in revenue per line? If not, you wouldn't be able to update ANY of your lines after a year of service. It isn't enough of a revenue generator (by AT&T's determination, of course) to allow for an early upgrade on a line that doesn't generate more than 100 dollars in revenue each month.

Yanno... you may well be able to upgrade one line, then switch the other to primary, and upgrade it. If you're interested, I mean. Might need to be primary line for some period of time to get upgrade (like a billing cycle?) or might not.
 
I guess I just don't want to pay for a 3rd iPhone plan if I only have 2 phones? Not sure if that would even matter. Guess I should just drive over to AT&T and find out...

You just upgrade to the iPhone with the line that can be upgraded, then you switch that phone over to the line where you want to use it. Add the original phone back to the line you upgraded, and remove the data plan.

They do that sorta thing all the time, because really? They just want your money, like all other companies. And they'll get a 2-year contract out of you... they don't care what phone you're using.
 
You shouldn't confuse the material costs with the costs of software and the R&D of bringing the hardware and software together.

Also, I can't count how many software updates my phone has received. I have the 1st gen. iPhone that I originally purchased for $599. Within a week of my purchase Apple dropped the price to $399. I was able to get my $200 refunded but I would still be just as happy with my purchase had it stayed at $599.

Things are only too expensive if people do not make the purchase. People are making the purchase so the market is bearing it out.

And Apple did just fine with the iPhone before the subsidies. The subsidies just allow people a lower entry level price. They end up paying more over time but overall people seem okay with it. Just like their credit cards. Actually, I bet most people put their iPhone purchase on their credit cards. Double whammy!

I completely disagree with you. Are you telling me that Apple spends far more on research for the iPhone than their Mac products? Because the Mac products have nowhere near the product margins of the iPhone. This is not only with the iPhone, but across all the mobile industry.

Since the iPhone was introduced, the Mac notebook line has seen more innovation than the iPhone has. There is no way you can honestly tell me that R&D costs 2.5x as much as all subsidized iPhones sold.

As for software updates, you are making a much bigger deal than it actually is. On the Mac side you only pay for a major release not bug fixes which have been a majority of the updates on the iPhone. There have been approximately 3 big updates since the iPhone was originally launched that brought significant features. If you want to count minor updates to Google Maps, then be my guest. The mobile industry as a whole never updated their phones and still charged incredibly high unsubsidized amounts well before the iPhone hit the scene.

Just because many people are willing to pay for something, it does not mean it is of good value. Especially when this is the way the whole market works. It wreaks more of collusion than worth. Because people are willing to pay $20/month for unlimited SMS, does that mean it's worth the price? You're willing to pay AT&T $30/month for 3g data. AT&T has stopped any app that streams video over the 3g. Their network is lousy in NYC where I live. Because you're willing to pay, is it worth the price?

Contrary to what you think, Apple would not have done well with the original unsubsidized price of the iPhone for $600. That is why they signed a deal with AT&T for a subsidized price. There would have not been a lot of people who would have paid $600. Apple was seeing a slowdown in sales. That is why they came out with a $99 iPhone. They were attached to one carrier in a certain price range and the amount of new customers they would have brought in would have been significantly lower.
 
Just because many people are willing to pay for something, it does not mean it is of good value. Especially when this is the way the whole market works. It wreaks more of collusion than worth. Because people are willing to pay $20/month for unlimited SMS, does that mean it's worth the price? You're willing to pay AT&T $30/month for 3g data. AT&T has stopped any app that streams video over the 3g. Their network is lousy in NYC where I live. Because you're willing to pay, is it worth the price?

Contrary to what you think, Apple would not have done well with the original unsubsidized price of the iPhone for $600. That is why they signed a deal with AT&T for a subsidized price. There would have not been a lot of people who would have paid $600. Apple was seeing a slowdown in sales. That is why they came out with a $99 iPhone. They were attached to one carrier in a certain price range and the amount of new customers they would have brought in would have been significantly lower.

Actually that is exactly why something is worth what it is worth. I have worked in retail for many years and just because one person or group of people do not see the value in something does not mean that something is not worth the price. Those people just don't see the value and that is fine. But it does not mean it is necessarily overpriced.

And I think it is unknown how Apple would have done if it had stayed with the upfront payment method on the iPhone, especially now that the App. Store is in full swing.

And I actually think they came out with the iPhone to get people hooked into the App. Store ecosystem. People will get the $99 iPhone(the shuffle of the line) and buy apps. Realize they love them and buy a bunch. No money for Apple in the apps. but after that people will probably buy at least one, if not more, future iPhones.

And back to value...I personally don't feel the 3G services are of good value for me right now. That is why I still have the 1st generation iPhone. My needs will likely be changing next year as I switch careers but I am happy with Edge and WiFi for the time being. But obviously plenty of other people see the value in that type of data plan.

And ultimately you have no idea what Apple really makes after everything is said and done. They make squat on the App. Store, they give a ton of software updates and there is a ton of work that goes into the software/hardware development. You don't like what Apple charges then don't buy the d@mn thing. It's not like this is new. All of Apple's products are at a premium. They also tend to last quite a bit longer so Apple doesn't get as frequent repeat business. All these people b!tch!ng about the price of the 3GS and my 1st gen. still is humming right along.

Apple can charge what it thinks the market will yield. Just because you don't see the value in it doesn't mean it isn't appropriately priced.
 
The adding second line trick

It seems there are quite a few people who are 12 months away from an upgrade so they're adding a second line to get the iPhone at the discounted price and then swapping the phones (easy enough to do with the SIM). Then it is being said that the second line is being cancelled on the 31st day or thereabouts.

A long long time ago I was with another carrier and then switched providers (coincidentally it was LA Cellular to Verizon) and I suffered the ETF. I paid the ETF but then received a bill for $400 for the phone as I was given a phone at a contract price and broke that contract so they wanted the phone or the funds.

Is that not what could potentially happen to these people adding a second line?
 
Slightly off topic, sorry, but this just occured to me....

I paid £260 for my first gen 1 phone with no subsidy...
On the apple website an 8gb iPhone3G costs £343 on PAYG
On the O2 website a 32gb iPhone3GS costs £538 on PAYG

This phone is getting very expensive!!!
The 3G was £93 more expensive than the original Edge phone with no more storage, and the 3GS is £185 more expensive than the 3G, ok a lot more storage but even so surely the NAND prices would have come down over the years...?

To put it another way...

A 8gb iPod Touch is £165.
This means the original 8gb iphone was £100 more expensive than the Touch equivilent. Fair enough.

A 32gb iPod Touch is £283
This means the current 32gb iphone is £255 more expensive than it's Touch equivilent!!!!

Conclusion: We are paying an extra £155 for a compass (about £2.50 in any hardware store), an extra 1MP on your camera and a slightly faster processor....!!

Remember this is just the price of the handset without subsidy!
I love the iPhone, and i am happy to pay a little extra as new hardware functionality is added, but this is getting silly... it's getting VERY expensive!

AND you're still buying a phone that will always be locked to one carrier even when your contract expires!!!

:(
 
It seems there are quite a few people who are 12 months away from an upgrade so they're adding a second line to get the iPhone at the discounted price and then swapping the phones (easy enough to do with the SIM). Then it is being said that the second line is being cancelled on the 31st day or thereabouts.

A long long time ago I was with another carrier and then switched providers (coincidentally it was LA Cellular to Verizon) and I suffered the ETF. I paid the ETF but then received a bill for $400 for the phone as I was given a phone at a contract price and broke that contract so they wanted the phone or the funds.

Is that not what could potentially happen to these people adding a second line?
Thats usually if you cancel in 30 days, then they bill you for the hardware. But given its an iPhone, I can VERY well see that happening now.
 
Actually that is exactly why something is worth what it is worth. I have worked in retail for many years and just because one person or group of people do not see the value in something does not mean that something is not worth the price. Those people just don't see the value and that is fine. But it does not mean it is necessarily overpriced.

And I think it is unknown how Apple would have done if it had stayed with the upfront payment method on the iPhone, especially now that the App. Store is in full swing.

And I actually think they came out with the iPhone to get people hooked into the App. Store ecosystem. People will get the $99 iPhone(the shuffle of the line) and buy apps. Realize they love them and buy a bunch. No money for Apple in the apps. but after that people will probably buy at least one, if not more, future iPhones.

And back to value...I personally don't feel the 3G services are of good value for me right now. That is why I still have the 1st generation iPhone. My needs will likely be changing next year as I switch careers but I am happy with Edge and WiFi for the time being. But obviously plenty of other people see the value in that type of data plan.

And ultimately you have no idea what Apple really makes after everything is said and done. They make squat on the App. Store, they give a ton of software updates and there is a ton of work that goes into the software/hardware development. You don't like what Apple charges then don't buy the d@mn thing. It's not like this is new. All of Apple's products are at a premium. They also tend to last quite a bit longer so Apple doesn't get as frequent repeat business. All these people b!tch!ng about the price of the 3GS and my 1st gen. still is humming right along.

Apple can charge what it thinks the market will yield. Just because you don't see the value in it doesn't mean it isn't appropriately priced.

Apple had a clear idea of how many phones they could sell which is why they offered a subsidized version. You act as if there is an unknown. You could always buy the unsubsidized version. Look at this forum and guess which one a vast majority of the people bought. Not only that but they are complaining about the price of a unsubsidized iPhone. If Apple felt that they would never have to worry about sales, they would never have offered a $99 iPhone. When you are speaking of the $99 iPhone you are glossing over the fact that it is price that makes it attractive to customers.

I may not know what Apple has spent in R&D but anyone can see that it is not anything close to the sales it has made on the iPhone. This is not some rare internal architecture. Most of the parts are "off the shelf" where they order it from manufacturers that put in the R&D to make those parts. Not only that, but from sheer volume alone, the manufacturing costs of the iPhone must be lower than it initially cost to make two years ago.

As to the 3g services, you are missing the point. Anybody buying an iPhone today will have to pay for a 3g plan whether or not they think it is worth it. And with those 3g pricies, you are essentially not allowed to watch streaming video on the service. Most iPhone owners don't think the AT&T service is worth but they pay it. There is nobody who thinks that SMS's in the mobile industry are worth it but they will still buy it to use it. There is nobody who thinks tethering prices are fair when you are essentially paying again for data that you already purchased. They will still purchase it anyway. Just because a person buys something does not mean they think it is worth the price. Those are two different ideas which are not mutually exclusive. Again, look at this thread of Apple loyalists and see if they think the unsubsidized iPhone price is worth it. I have an iPhone 3g. I may love the product but I don't think it is worth the unsubsidized price.

Of course Apple can do whatever they want. That is not the point. There is a problems with the prices in this industry as a whole.
 
I really had hoped that Apple would release a PAYGO plan b

Rates plans are NOT Apple. Apple didn't want to be a cellular service company any more than it wanted to be a full service ISP or a credit company. that's why there's no Apple Credit Card like you find at Gap etc, that's why there's no Apple ISP.

so if you are going to gripe, at least do it about the right companies -- ATT, T-Mobile, Rogers, O2 etc

Yep. Same here.

I dunno why so many people are freaking out. So you don't get a new phone on launch day. Big deal.

what is funny is how many times do I see wise ones on this forum saying "don't buy when it's brand new cause there's always something messed up, wait a month or two for the problem to be found and fixed" and yet are screaming about how they have to get the phone on launch day

This is illegal, the contract extension isn't binding unless you knew and assented,

Apple and ATT ain't hiding the fact that you are signing a new two year agreement. They even make you sign to that effect when you buy the phone.

If you buy a phone at "SIM-free" price, not subsidised, they have no grounds on which to extend your contract.
and if you are buying at the $499-699 range they don't. because that is the full retail price of the phone. it is still locked to ATT but it is contract free

I've worked for both service providers and phone retailers in the UK so I think I'm on fairly solid ground here.

sorry but that last bit is laughable. You are actually quoting the laws of another country. Sorry but the US stopped following UK laws around 1776. go work for some providers or a contract law office in the US and then tell us what can and can't be done

I live in upstate New York and 3G service in my area is only available in the big cities.

unfortunately it is in the terms and conditions that 3g service is not guaranteed in all areas. that said, go look up the state attorney general or whatever office doesn't consumer protection and see if there's anyway to file a complaint. see if the AG feels different than ATT about the issue and wants to argue that you should get a cut rate plan since it is ATT at fault. it might work
 
It seems there are quite a few people who are 12 months away from an upgrade so they're adding a second line to get the iPhone at the discounted price and then swapping the phones (easy enough to do with the SIM). Then it is being said that the second line is being cancelled on the 31st day or thereabouts.

A long long time ago I was with another carrier and then switched providers (coincidentally it was LA Cellular to Verizon) and I suffered the ETF. I paid the ETF but then received a bill for $400 for the phone as I was given a phone at a contract price and broke that contract so they wanted the phone or the funds.

Is that not what could potentially happen to these people adding a second line?

yes. i think it's far more likely that will happen.

the bing cashback + ETF for a price under 400 for the 32gb is a far better option IMO
 
They will more than likely also offer a Verizon version.
.

if you mean a CDMA, no they won't. Apple has been very clear on this issue. they picked GSM to avoid making multiple models.

Now what they will likely do at some point is unlock the phone so that any company that supports the correct technology can be used. so in the US at this point that is ATT and T-Mobile. As the tech updates and moves into whatever will be 4g, if Verizon and Sprint choose to go that way (and apparently Verizon is researching the issue even now) then you are go to go.

The downside to the unlock/any carrier issue is that you might only be able to buy the handset at Apple for full retail which will be in the range of $499-699 likely. Upside to that is that it seems a lot if not most states have a law that if you provide the phone and the carrier just the service, they can't make you sign a termed contract or charge you an ETF cause they claim those two items are to recover device costs they paid. and since US law says you own your number til you give it up, you could then bounce providers to the best offer whenever you want

If you have to wait until January anyway, then that actually is the perfect month since there might be something new at Macworld. Unless that doesn't exist any more.

Apple stopped doing MacWorld after January. They are going to do all their own announcements. so any thing about the phone will likely be at the June WWDC just like this year and last.

Apple sold the original iPhone direct, and people freaked out over the price (because it wasn't subsidized by the carriers).

they freaked cause of required contract when usually gets a subsidy. and then you might recall a rebate to all early buyers and a price drop to match that new price.

so the carrier(s) prices still apply when you buy from Apple.

and the carrier rules. Apple can't override eligibility, deposits etc.

you are slightly wrong about one thing though. as of about two months ago in the US you could go into apple an buy the phone outright. no contract, no onsite activation. for full retail. still locked to ATT

Im in America in September could i no get a cheeper pay as you go there and pop my sim card in that when i get hame???

your plan is no good.
1. no pay as you go plans
2. activation requires a US tax id/social security number which you likely don't have
3. non activation requires payment of the full retail price ($499-699 depending on the model you get), but is still locked to ATT which may not be a valid provider where "home" is


they know it isn't the same, which is why they still lock you into a 2 year contract even if you do not accept a subsidy on the phone (i.e.. pay full price for it).

have you actually bought a full price phone.

for at&t no contract no commitment plan. lets say if i happen to buy a 3g s for $499. would it still be locked for at&t?

yes.


Actually, I bet most people put their iPhone purchase on their credit cards. Double whammy!

more like smart move. many CC companies now do like AmEx and offer a replacement protection on electronics bought on the card. which is good for when you water damage the phone and you can't get it service replaced. the protection only covers the original price paid but hey if they will pony up some of the cost, it hurts less.


oh please. Apple and ATT care about as much about this sort of thing as the networks do when they cancel a tv show. which is to say that they don't.

. If Apple wishes to remain exclusive with a single carrier

do you really think they want to be forever on ATT. probably not. But it is very likely that ATT fronted some R&D funds and this exclusive contract paying it off, like of like how your two year contract pays off device subsidies.

Can't I just purchase the phones from Apple on the eligible lines and activate them on the lines where I WANT to use them?? ATT gets their contract, I get my phones, life is good.

by letter of the law, no. eligibility is by line.

that said, go to an ATT store (NOT apple cause they have no control over the issue) and bitch and moan a lot and threaten to not only not buy the new phones but to take your business to Sprint and buy Pres and the people there will likely bend over backwards to work something out.

I completely disagree with you. Are you telling me that Apple spends far more on research for the iPhone than their Mac products?

at this point, yes they probably have. remember that the Mac products come from a long line of research dating back a couple of decades. and there is a lot of similar art they can refer to

the phone was a fresh new product unlike any other and the research is only perhaps 5 years old at the most.

so within the last 5 years they have probably spent more time and money on the phone than the Macs. because they needed to.

Apple was seeing a slowdown in sales. That is why they came out with a $99 iPhone.

so what is your job at Apple. you must work there if you know why they came out with the $99 8gb

perhaps the answer is simply that they marked down an existing model that they likely had a ton of stock on cause folks were so certain there would be a new phone that they stopped buying the current models. knocking down the price was a way to try to get rid of the phones into the market instead of eating the cost and profit by scrapping them.
 
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