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willdenow

macrumors member
Aug 7, 2002
67
0
Please keep in mind

There is no doubt that both the core i5 and core i7 represent significant values. However, these are SYNTHETIC benchmarks that treat hyperthreading cores the same as the physical cores in the core i7 cpu. Thus, the 35% boost over the core i5 is not surprising. One should be aware, however, that in most real life situations, the additional computing power provided by hyperthreading is often only marginal, at best 5-7% beyond what can be achieved by the four physical cores, and this requires programs that operate in a highly parallel fashion, such as video encoding. For many applications, there is simply no difference and for some, there is actually degradation because the instructions provided by the application cannot be executed in parallel and result in the stalling of the physical cores. This is not a problem in PCs because hyperthreading can be turned off in the BIOS if one finds this effect or if the hyperthreading is causing the chip to overheat, which does happen. From what I have read so far, it would appear that there may not be any way to accomplish this in the iMac. Thus, one should consider carefully the type of software to be run before deciding. Bigger is not always better.

Also, do not be confused by Intel's naming protocols. The 2.8 GHZ core i7 on offer is NOT a Nehelem chip, but rather uses the same Lynnfield architecture of the 2.6 core i5 chip. Both use dual channel memory controllers (as opposed to the faster tri-channel memory for Nehelem chips), are capable of only half the video bandwidth of the Nehelem chip and also utilizes a higher latency, slower interconnect bus than the Nehelem core i7's. On the plus side, the energy efficiency of these Lynnfield chips is much better than the first generation Nehelem chips. They use much less electricity both on idle and at load than the Nehelem chips, which is probably why Apple waited for them to be released. Nevertheless, the 2.8 core i7 chip with hyperthreading will run significantly hotter and draw mopre power than the core i5. So if heat and/or power consumption are a concern, stick with the i5.

If you plan on purchasing the 27 inch iMac, avoid the entry level 3 GHZ core 2 duo model if your budget permits. Even though the clockspeed is as much as 20% greater than the i5, the core 2 duo chips are in fact much slower overall, both due to the fact that they have only two cpu 2 cores, and to the fact that the core i5/i7 architecture has been significantly optimized in its re-engineering. The real world difference is probably greater than the Geekbench bar graph would indicate. The extra $300 needed to move up to the core i5 can truly worth it in terms of both performance and energy efficiency.

Finally, there are numerous sites across the web that have benchmarked the two quad core chips currently on offer in the 27 inch iMac using real world software and parametrics. None of the ten or so reviews that I've seen shows any program or group of programs benefiting from a 35% increase in speed when using the 2.8 GHZ i7 Lynnfield versus the 2.6 GHZ i5 Lynnfield. In fact, the most I have seen runs 7 to 10%, with most programs showing only a negligible increase. It is likely that you will derive more oomph from your system by adding more RAM, particularly if you run Windows or Linux in a virtual machine or if you run many programs at once. Given current prices for RAM, you should be able to easily double the amount of RAM in your system to 8 GB for less than $100. The remaining $100 or so would go along way toward the purchase of Apple Care (not a bad idea given that this is a brand new machine design), a Time capsule, a 1.5 TB external hard drive or perhaps the purchase of an iPod or Apple TV.
 

greg400

macrumors 6502
Aug 13, 2009
332
0
You never know, it is Apple were talking about. More and More circuitry is being replaced by a chip. As shown by the 9400M.
The day Apple makes a substantially thinner iMac with the current parts that are in it is the day Apple's engineering team starts practicing magic.
 

greg400

macrumors 6502
Aug 13, 2009
332
0
Not necessarily. Look at Mini-ITX boards. Look at the MACBOOK AIR!!!!
It's clear that Apple is starting to make the iMac more "pro" than "consumer" as evident with their latest update. Apple had a missing hole in their line up that used to be filled only by the failed G4 Cube. Maybe if Apple was to split the iMac line into the iMac Air and the iMac Pro, I could see it happening but that's incredibly questionable because in all actuality why would you EVER want a less powerful desktop computer as a trade off for thinner desktop computer?

Edit (since you edited your post): The Macbook Air is portable, therefore you want it to be lighter and thinner. The iMac is not something you lug around. It sits on your desk and never moves.
 

gctwnl

macrumors regular
Jan 4, 2005
219
139
The Netherlands
Apple. please, put this in a small desktop form factor!

Wouldn't it be great if Apple also sold mid-range systems without a screen? I already own two 1600x1200 screens and I would love to buy this iMac without the screen in a desktop form factor. New Cube? Come on, Steve!

Maybe not, though. The difference with the MacPro would become mainly a matter of expandability and maybe that form factor is mainly interesting for people who not just want their own screen selection, but also want the rest of the expandability. The lack of that was a nail in the coffin of the original G4 Cube.
 

tenks

macrumors member
Feb 27, 2008
46
0
Also, do not be confused by Intel's naming protocols. The 2.8 GHZ core i7 on offer is NOT a Nehelem chip, but rather uses the same Lynnfield architecture of the 2.6 core i5 chip. Both use dual channel memory controllers (as opposed to the faster tri-channel memory for Nehelem chips), are capable of only half the video bandwidth..

Haha where are you getting this nonsense? Lynnfield is Nehalem. Just like Bloomfield is nehalem. And just like Beckton and Gainstown are Nehalem. Nehalem is an architecture, not a specific CPU. The bloomfield chips are the high-end socket 1366 chips with 3 memory channels. Lynnfield only has two memory channels but tests have show there is no significant decrease in performance as you rarely saturate 3 channels of memory bandwith, so its a moot point. Also I have no idea where you are getting this "video bandwidth" figure from..nor do I even know what exactly video bandwidth is or how its CPU related. Also Lynnfield integrates the PCIexpress controller so there is A LOT lower latency to your videocards/gpus..not higher. Lynnfields are a 1 chip solution because of this and dont have a northbridge and there is no need for the same Quickpath bus as on Bloomfields. Its unnecessary and a moot point as you will never have a 2 socket lynnfield system and the high speed bus, quickpath is unneeded. Also Lynnfields officially support ddr3-1333 as opposed to ddr-1066 on the higher end bloomfields, so lynnfield actually has more memory bandwidth ( this is official support tho because you can easily run higher memory on both). Also hyper-threading does not cause the cpu to overheat and does it rarely cause worse performance. Get your facts strait before you post man. ;)

The Core 2 Duos in the 21.5" iMacs are desktop processors. The E7600 and E8600 are 65W Wolfdale class.

Was just going to say the same thing.:)
 

gctwnl

macrumors regular
Jan 4, 2005
219
139
The Netherlands
There is no doubt that both the core i5 and core i7 represent significant values. However, these are SYNTHETIC benchmarks that treat hyperthreading cores the same as the physical cores in the core i7 cpu. Thus, the 35% boost over the core i5 is not surprising. One should be aware, however, that in most real life situations, the additional computing power provided by hyperthreading is often only marginal, at best 5-7% beyond what can be achieved by the four physical cores, and this requires programs that operate in a highly parallel fashion, such as video encoding. For many applications, there is simply no difference and for some, there is actually degradation because the instructions provided by the application cannot be executed in parallel and result in the stalling of the physical cores. This is not a problem in PCs because hyperthreading can be turned off in the BIOS if one finds this effect or if the hyperthreading is causing the chip to overheat, which does happen. From what I have read so far, it would appear that there may not be any way to accomplish this in the iMac. Thus, one should consider carefully the type of software to be run before deciding. Bigger is not always better.

Also, do not be confused by Intel's naming protocols. The 2.8 GHZ core i7 on offer is NOT a Nehelem chip, but rather uses the same Lynnfield architecture of the 2.6 core i5 chip. Both use dual channel memory controllers (as opposed to the faster tri-channel memory for Nehelem chips), are capable of only half the video bandwidth of the Nehelem chip and also utilizes a higher latency, slower interconnect bus than the Nehelem core i7's. On the plus side, the energy efficiency of these Lynnfield chips is much better than the first generation Nehelem chips. They use much less electricity both on idle and at load than the Nehelem chips, which is probably why Apple waited for them to be released. Nevertheless, the 2.8 core i7 chip with hyperthreading will run significantly hotter and draw mopre power than the core i5. So if heat and/or power consumption are a concern, stick with the i5.

If you plan on purchasing the 27 inch iMac, avoid the entry level 3 GHZ core 2 duo model if your budget permits. Even though the clockspeed is as much as 20% greater than the i5, the core 2 duo chips are in fact much slower overall, both due to the fact that they have only two cpu 2 cores, and to the fact that the core i5/i7 architecture has been significantly optimized in its re-engineering. The real world difference is probably greater than the Geekbench bar graph would indicate. The extra $300 needed to move up to the core i5 can truly worth it in terms of both performance and energy efficiency.

Finally, there are numerous sites across the web that have benchmarked the two quad core chips currently on offer in the 27 inch iMac using real world software and parametrics. None of the ten or so reviews that I've seen shows any program or group of programs benefiting from a 35% increase in speed when using the 2.8 GHZ i7 Lynnfield versus the 2.6 GHZ i5 Lynnfield. In fact, the most I have seen runs 7 to 10%, with most programs showing only a negligible increase. It is likely that you will derive more oomph from your system by adding more RAM, particularly if you run Windows or Linux in a virtual machine or if you run many programs at once. Given current prices for RAM, you should be able to easily double the amount of RAM in your system to 8 GB for less than $100. The remaining $100 or so would go along way toward the purchase of Apple Care (not a bad idea given that this is a brand new machine design), a Time capsule, a 1.5 TB external hard drive or perhaps the purchase of an iPod or Apple TV.
Thanks for this insightful quote. Interestingly, the Apple Store (NL at least) says the i7 iMac has a 'Nehalem' processor. Mistake on Apple's part?
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
... and for some, there is actually degradation because the instructions provided by the application cannot be executed in parallel and result in the stalling of the physical cores.

Instead of stating that as a fact, explain it. I am really curious how that is supposed to work.
 

neiltc13

macrumors 68040
May 27, 2006
3,126
19
The new iMacs represent very good value IMHO.

Nonsense! I just built a computer for a friend for £600. It has a Core i5 2.6GHz, 1GB ATi 5770 graphics card, 4GB RAM and a 500GB hard drive. Let's assume a decent monitor is another £200 on top (he had one already).

For the same level of performance from Apple, it costs me £1600. You end up paying double the price and get no better performance, an inability to upgrade, a significantly worse graphics card and in my opinion a worse operating system.

Remind me again why these systems are "very good value"?
 

jayducharme

macrumors 601
Jun 22, 2006
4,531
5,977
The thick of it
The better the new iMac's are, from a computer/processing perspective -- the more frustrating it is for those of us who cannot buy one because it lacks a matte screen.

This initially was a big concern of mine, until I actually started using one. My work machine is a glossy iMac that faces a window, and I've had no problems viewing the screen. It surprised me. I had expected to hate it.

Now I just have to get over the loss of the numeric keypad. Over the holidays I'm ordering a 27" iMac. I played with one at my local Apple store. Impressive machine. And the new Magic Mouse is much smaller than I expected.
 

BornAgainMac

macrumors 604
Feb 4, 2004
7,282
5,268
Florida Resident
Apple can make the monitor very thin if they use a updated design of the iMac G4 with the bulking components at the bottom or hidden in a way only Apple can do. It would be nice to have easy access to the GPU slots (SLI), Hard Drive, Blu-Ray drive, Memory with a door like the old Powermac G3/G3s. Perhaps even have the monitor upgradable later but still have the integration of a all-in-one of the iMac when you see it. iMac Pro or just do a Mac Mini Pro since that is easier to do.
 

Chupa Chupa

macrumors G5
Jul 16, 2002
14,835
7,396
the bench marks are fantastic! and so much cheeper then a mac pro!

We'll it's less expensive, but only proportionally so. The low end QC MP is approx 40% faster and 20% more expensive, so bang for the buck is still w/ the MP. Of course that doesn't include a monitor, and the avg. consumer doesn't need a MP or want its bulkiness. iMacs and MP really don't compete for the same dollar.

Nonsense! I just built a computer for a friend for £600. It has a Core i5 2.6GHz, 1GB ATi 5770 graphics card, 4GB RAM and a 500GB hard drive. Let's assume a decent monitor is another £200 on top (he had one already).

For the same level of performance from Apple, it costs me £1600. You end up paying double the price and get no better performance, an inability to upgrade, a significantly worse graphics card and in my opinion a worse operating system.

Remind me again why these systems are "very good value"?

Well at least you admit you are a troll. But remind me again, why are you wasting your time reading and posting here?
 

Helmigurt

macrumors member
Jul 15, 2009
96
15
Austria
So is the core i5 even for games better than the 3,33 Ghz core 2 duo? Because pricing is roughly the same! Would love to see an expert answering this question. For my general computing tasks my current iMac (see sig) is enough so I will buy the new 27" iMac just for the huge screen and the gaming performance!
 

AAPLaday

Guest
Aug 6, 2008
2,411
2
Manchester UK
Nonsense! I just built a computer for a friend for £600. It has a Core i5 2.6GHz, 1GB ATi 5770 graphics card, 4GB RAM and a 500GB hard drive. Let's assume a decent monitor is another £200 on top (he had one already).

For the same level of performance from Apple, it costs me £1600. You end up paying double the price and get no better performance, an inability to upgrade, a significantly worse graphics card and in my opinion a worse operating system.

Remind me again why these systems are "very good value"?

the 27" iMac monitor is worth well over £200
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Nonsense! I just built a computer for a friend for £600. It has a Core i5 2.6GHz, 1GB ATi 5770 graphics card, 4GB RAM and a 500GB hard drive. Let's assume a decent monitor is another £200 on top (he had one already).

For the same level of performance from Apple, it costs me £1600. You end up paying double the price and get no better performance, an inability to upgrade, a significantly worse graphics card and in my opinion a worse operating system.

Remind me again why these systems are "very good value"?

Who cares?

1) It's not a Mac
2) It doesn't run OS X.

Congrats on building a computer, but if it's not part and parcel of the Apple ecosystem, why would we care about it? You've shoved some parts in a box and installed Windows on it. OMG WOW!!

There are plenty of reasons consumers see Macs as a better value. If you can't see that or don't want to, WHY ARE YOU HERE?

For your enjoyment and edification:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10019711-37.html

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2...tisfaction-up-despite-struggling-industry.ars

http://digg.com/apple/Apple_leads_2009_customer_satisfaction_survey

http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/08/16/apple.no..1.on.csi/

http://theappleblog.com/2009/05/06/apple-customer-satisfaction-its-the-experience/

http://blackfriarsinc.com/blog/2007/04/behind-scenes-why-apples-customerbase

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ByteOfTheApple/blog/archives/2008/08/mac_customer_sa.html

http://www.cultofmac.com/apple-posts-highest-score-ever-on-customer-satisfaction-index/2553

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/22467/

http://bindapple.com/apple-satisfaction-2009-report/

http://www.macnn.com/news/25971

https://www.macrumors.com/2009/08/14/iphone-3gs-trumps-palm-pre-in-satisfaction-survey/

http://www.ipodobserver.com/ipo/article/iPhone_Satisfaction_Off_The_Charts/

http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/08/14/iphone-3gs-99-pure-satisfaction/

http://www.mactivist.com/2009/06/iphone-macs-ipod-sweep-2008-customer-satisfaction-rankings-in-japan

http://www.9to5mac.com/jobs-satisfation-rate-high

http://www.jdpower.com/Business/ratings/smartphone-ratings

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2248040/apple-keeps-top-billing

http://www.eweek.com/prestitial.php...ustomer-Satisfaction-Study-Finds-453807/&ref=

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2352796,00.asp

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2006/08/5002.ars

http://www.osnews.com/story/15553

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1689554/posts

https://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-224872.html


I won't bother posting reviews of the new iMacs. They're all over the net, readily available, and quite unanimous in their wholehearted approval.
 

greg400

macrumors 6502
Aug 13, 2009
332
0
So is the core i5 even for games better than the 3,33 Ghz core 2 duo? Because pricing is roughly the same! Would love to see an expert answering this question. For my general computing tasks my current iMac (see sig) is enough so I will buy the new 27" iMac just for the huge screen and the gaming performance!
The processor doesn't play as big of a part on gaming as the GPU does. Though, you are definitely going to want to go with the i5 over the 3.33GHz dual core simply because more and more games are taking advantage of quad core processors for better performance.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
You are calling the i7 crap because an eight core Mac is twice as fast as one with four cores?

Anyway, you must have a very unusual MacPro, because this is completely contradicted by the published Geekbench results.

Following the link in the article, an eight core MacPro 2008 at 3.2 GHz on the 32 bit benchmark actually scores lower than the i7 iMac on the 64 bit benchmark. I'd be curious to see how that happens, but that's what geekbench says.
 

KingMone

macrumors newbie
Nov 10, 2009
29
0
Nice work yeah , well now it's time to ship to the people who ordered in October. Thanks Steve. ;)
 

Eidorian

macrumors Penryn
Mar 23, 2005
29,190
386
Indianapolis
It took Apple long enough to release another decent desktop power iMac. Living off of mobile components was just a drag to performance.
 

spxy

macrumors newbie
Jul 11, 2004
22
0
Nonsense! I just built a computer for a friend for £600. It has a Core i5 2.6GHz, 1GB ATi 5770 graphics card, 4GB RAM and a 500GB hard drive. Let's assume a decent monitor is another £200 on top (he had one already).

For the same level of performance from Apple, it costs me £1600. You end up paying double the price and get no better performance, an inability to upgrade, a significantly worse graphics card and in my opinion a worse operating system.

Remind me again why these systems are "very good value"?

Er you forgot to add them time spent building the system+VAT also the time sourcing the parts, plus any warrenty for a faulty build, the operation system, also visual design of the whole set up etc etc...
 

zaphoyd

macrumors regular
Jun 25, 2002
121
32
Wisconsin/Illinois
Thanks for this insightful quote. Interestingly, the Apple Store (NL at least) says the i7 iMac has a 'Nehalem' processor. Mistake on Apple's part?

The above poster is mistaken. Lynnfield chips use the Nehalem architecture. That said these benchmarks are certainly a bit misleading. Hyperthreading will not provide a real world 35% improvement.

Instead of stating that as a fact, explain it. I am really curious how that is supposed to work.

Physical cores have multiple parts. Each instruction passes through each part as needed. For simplicities sake lets say there are two parts: load data from memory and process instruction (in reality there are 5-20 ish based on the architecture).

Say three instructions are scheduled to run on one core, one after the other. The first one hits the load data phase, the data is in the L2/L3 cache and comes back quickly and moves right on to the process stage. While it is processing instruction two moves into the load stage but gets a cache miss (has to load the data from memory/disk - the processor knows this will be slow) while the chip is waiting the ALU/processing stage is idle.

On a non-hyperthreaded system it is just stuck, stays idle. On a hyperthreaded system the core is logically split in half. Ie it can hold two threads at a time, even though it only has the processing resources of one core. If one of its threads becomes blocked like above, instead of idling the processing stages it switches to the other thread until the cache miss is resolved.

In workloads where the core will be running a pair of threads that will have a lot of these bubbles (cache misses, branch misprediction, data dependencies) and another thread already ready to go hyperthreading will perform well. Video encoding and geekbench are two examples :p However it only makes certain types of workflows more efficient, it doesn't actually make the processor "go faster"; the i7 iMac's higher clock speed does though. Given the recent push by Apple into better multithreaded code I would expect software will be able to better use this in the coming years.
 

barefeats

macrumors 65816
Jul 6, 2000
1,058
19
Geekbench results are interesting, but....

... it will also be interesting to see how the 4-core i5 and i7 iMac compare to the 8-core Mac Pro when running a real world app like Compressor. More cores are not always faster. When testing the Nehalem Mac Pro in March, we found that Compressor rendered fastest when we specified 4 or 6 instances (cores) in the virtual cluster (QMaster) than it did with 8 or 12 or 16 instances.

We received our i7 iMac yesterday. This weekend we'll be running a series of real world tests comparing it to the Nehalem Mac Pro (4 core and 8 core). Then early next week we'll add the i5 iMac to the mix.

It's clear even from the early benchmarks that the new iMacs represent a closing of the gap between the iMacs and Mac Pros. There's no longer a crying need for a "mini tower" version of the Mac Pro.
 
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