Court Rules Apple Can Be Sued for Monopolizing iPhone App Market

[kdarling]

And Apple didn't teach me anything about choices. Its crystal clear they started a closed ecosystem back when this all started and folks CHOSE to buy into that knowing that. Now they want to complain and sue because they "think" it shouldn't be that way.

This isn't new.

People complained from the very start about Apple's single iOS store system (and their greed).

Some major companies withheld their apps for a long time, and some still do because of the way Apple also collects a percentage for in-app purchases. The latter should be the next fight, or might not even apply if this trial is done right.

As for "thinking it shouldn't be that way"... Steve Jobs himself railed against the single walled garden stores at cellular carriers... yet then turned right around and made one of his own.

Actually its not a bad analogy, its just one you don't like. McDonalds is closer to my home but sometimes I want a Whopper.

It's an analogy that doesn't apply here.

Nobody is asking McDonalds to sell Whoppers. Nobody's asking Apple to sell non-iOS apps.

 

[ReneR]

I listened to your opinion and I think it's wrong. You want to force a private enterprise to conform to your particular desires because they are not doing things the way you want.

What we have here is a mind closed to the IP driven economics of what went into the iPhone and its ecosystem, closed to the idea that maybe millions find value in Apple's curation of the App Store, and closed to the possibility that the world is full of trade offs, this being one of them.

I think I am immeasurably better off with the current setup and I find nothing of value in the argument that I'm paying more for software than I should.

Private enterprise? Is Apple not a publicly traded one? Also I purchase devices for premium money? Why am I not allowed to do with them as I please? And do not come again with a jailbreaking opportunity. Jailbreak is not always immediately available and requires hundred of hours of hacking for each iOS version to find a security hole.

Do you work for Apple PR or where does your argument come from? Even if third party apps would be allowed a little bit more easy you personally still would not loose anything. Nobody forces you to enable additional download sources.

With your chain of argument you only take away freedom of others.
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Help me understand, if developer Joey creates a Weather app. How does having it on the app store available to millions of users verses on BillyBobs app store any different? Maybe BillyBob wont charge the $.29 cent fee and only charge the developer $.19 (20% not 30%). But how many potential sells with BillyBobs store have verses Apples? And how will that make it any better for you, the end user? If you get the app, whether you got it from Apples store or BillyBobs store how does that matter in the least to the end user? And if getting it from BillyBob store you have to jump through hoops to install it verses pressing an icon right on your device, how would that be better? Talk about "defending the undefendable".......

So developer Bill developed a much better music purchase and streaming app. Apple refuses to sell it because it competes with iOS core functionally. See?

Firefox developed a more snappy and power efficient web browser, Apple refuses to list it because it violates the Just-in-Time code generation clause of the iTunes terms and conditions, although the Firefox JIT may be more secure because they have the latest and greatest and of course patented all mightly sandbox technology. Yet Apple will never allow it in the App Store although it would be more secure than their own Safari.

Notice a pattern?

 

[JHankwitz]

America is nuts..

As is every other continent and country in the world!

 

[TooMuchToKeepUp]

Private enterprise? Is Apple not a publicly traded one? Also I purchase devices for premium money? Why am I not allowed to do with them as I please? And do not come again with a jailbreaking opportunity. Jailbreak is not always immediately available and requires hundred of hours of hacking for each iOS version to find a security hole.

Do you work for Apple PR or where does your argument come from? Even if third party apps would be allowed a little bit more easy you personally still would not loose anything. Nobody forces you to enable additional download sources.

With your chain of argument you only take away freedom of others.

if an app breaks the phone, who would be liabled to fix it while it is still under warranty? Would it be apple or you? This would be a nightmare for a company like apple to manage.

 

[ReneR]

Honestly, if you don't believe in Apple's whole user experience and think it's like "being in jail" .

Believe? is Apple a religion, bible, with god and all this?

The fact is, some people here seem to be comparing smartphones to desktop or notebook computers. Of course Mac OS X allows anyone to code for it and you aren't limited to ONLY buying from its App Store! It's a *computer*, which means people have always had that expectation of it since the first personal computer existed. A phone is more of a device.
...
For everything else, I use a computer!

Are you kidding me? Apple themselves advertises the iPad as post PC personal computer thing. And also the iPhone is more powerfull than NetBooks or even entry level PCs from just a few years ago.

Face it: this is the post PC future, and we want to run the Apps we want to run. Not what Apple's censors pre filter based on their current business mood for us.

 

[uH WhAt]

It's an analogy that doesn't apply here.

Nobody is asking McDonalds to sell Whoppers. Nobody's asking Apple to sell non-iOS apps.

Then whats the reasoning behind creating a marketplace that does not have to go thru Apples Certification process, unless its to create inferior products not up to apples standard. Otherwise do what they all the other developers do. No you just want a marketplace outside of Apples reach to peddle your wares and guess what, you have it. You can buy, HTC, Samsung...

Doing what you want will lead to illegitimate, virus laden apps that will confuse and weaken this platform and all so those 20 members of your family can log into some media server app that you created... Nope, I don't buy it. Jailbreak your phone or buy something else, nobody is forcing you to buy an iphone.

 

[ReneR]

if an app breaks the phone, who would be liabled to fix it while it is still under warranty? Would it be apple or you? This would be a nightmare for a company like apple to manage.

Seriously, when was the last time that user-space (read: regular application) caused a hardware defect?

After all there is a real protected mode OS and drivers delegating and protecting hardware access.
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if an app breaks the phone, who would be liabled to fix it while it is still under warranty? Would it be apple or you? This would be a nightmare for a company like apple to manage.

How many apps broke Macs and PCs so far?

The only things that broke my iPhone so far where Apple's crappy batteries, and bend gate, and dust in the home button and such.

Do you want to tell me that an App will bend my phone or push a sand crumb into the home button assembly?

 

[paul4339]

Isn't the commission for Google Play also 30%?

The original case brought forward was that Apple was taking advantage of it's position of sole distributor in iOS and the customer suffers by paying higher prices. (Anti-trust is to protect the customer).

 

[ReneR]

Also, the bottleneck devs. complain about is with humans reviewing the apps. Its still pretty quick (about a week) and much better now than it used to be. The reaction time to offending apps has also been considerably shortened.

For updates it came down from 10-14 days on average to 1-3 days. For us. Usually.

And I know what they review. They usually do not notice private API access. I know, because we did that. Apple never noticed.

 

[TooMuchToKeepUp]

Seriously, when was the last time that user-space (read: regular application) caused a hardware defect?

After all there is a real protected mode OS and drivers delegating and protecting hardware access.
[doublepost=1484341636][/doublepost]

How many apps broke Macs and PCs so far?

The only things that broke my iPhone so far where Apple's crappy batteries, and bend gate, and dust in the home button and such.

Do you want to tell me that an App will bend my phone or push a sand crumb into the home button assembly?

Lots of viruses have caused extensive damages to PCs and other machines. For you to say they haven't , it shows the level of your knowledge in this area.

 

[Tinmania]

So banning competition on one's own platform is fair? So you will tell those who sued Microsoft decades ago for bundling IE as the only choice with Windows to switch to Mac rather than allow alternate browsers which actually happened?

Google has the right view on this.They allow alternate app stores on Android but ask the user to accept responsibility for any damage done to their device

And there are cases where there is an Android app available that can't be obtained at any app store. But you can download and install it right from the developer (or, more likely, from the manufacturer of the product you purchased that has a companion app available).

Here is an example. I was able to download and install the Amazon Video app on my Sheild TV (running Android TV). The Amazon Prime Video App is not available on the Google Play store yet I was still able to install it on my own which let me watch Amazon Video.

Apple TV's app store also does not have the Amazon Prime Video app. But unlike Android TV there is no way to side load it.



Mike
[doublepost=1484342122][/doublepost]

There is a LOT of willful ignorance in this thread . . .

Sadly, not much of it is willful.


Mike

 

[ReneR]

There is no 100% security with any apps on any OS however there are ways to make systems more secure and one of those ways is through vetting applications and using a closed system. How can they continue to do this (proficiently) with multiple other app stores that are available from anywhere on the internet?

100% security comes from actually good, bug free code. Maybe companies like Apple should spend more on their security research and implementation - for example a real and verified microkernel than security by App review. The later will usually not even catch many issues. If I were a malware coder, do you think I would code that App so that Apple notices while reviewing it?

Also this is not MacOS before OS X where apps where running without protection in the same address space. This is a memory protected Unix kernel where address space and filesystems access are separated, even thru an additional sandbox now. And you think Apps need review in order to protect your data?

Do they not advertise it as more secure than Windows? Basically everyone demanding App review vetting is not believing Apple's Unix security advertising.

 

[kdarling]

Doing what you want will lead to illegitimate, virus laden apps that will confuse and weaken this platform ...

Okay, this seems to be the core of your opposition, and that of many others.

You are worried that letting other people access other sources will include sources full of virus laden apps.

Except of course, that wouldn't apply to you, since you wouldn't stray outside of Apple's store. So where's the problem?

--

Btw, do you own a personal computer of any kind? Perhaps a Mac? Have you only ever gotten apps from Apple? Or are you like most people, and have gotten apps from plenty of other places.

 

[ReneR]

Lots of viruses have caused extensive damages to PCs and other machines. For you to say they haven't , it shows the level of your knowledge in this area.

Unless you can provide some quote, hyperlink, please, it did not happen.
This kind of excessive la la land is exactly what caused all this hysteria.

 

[Tinmania]

I just had to reply to this one.

If a Porsche (or any automobile) is still under manufacturer's warranty, while you can service it at an independent mechanic, you cannot "tinker [with] it" nor can you install custom engine performance profiles on it (other than those available at and installed by an authorized dealer, if any) without potentially voiding the manufacturer's warranty. If an issue arises that could potentially have been caused by these unauthorized tweaks, manufacturer may at its discretion declare the warranty null and void or, at a minimum, deny the dealer's claim for any related repair (which means the dealer won't perform the repair).

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act forbids declaring an entire warranty "null and void" as you asserted. In addition the burden is on the manufacture to prove that the third-party repair or enhancement directly caused the warranty claim on the part(s) that have failed. Even if that is proven it doesn't void the remainder of the warranty relating to any other issues that may or may not arise.


Mike
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And btw. I am pretty sure in most sane states you can for sure tinker some things on your car (like screwing on a spoiler) and still get warranty if your engine blows up in the warranty period under normal usage conditions.

Every state. It is federal law.


Mike

 

[uH WhAt]

Unless you can provide some quote, hyperlink, please, it did not happen.
This kind of excessive la la land is exactly what caused all this hysteria.

https://www.wired.com/2015/01/german-steel-mill-hack-destruction/
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...rt-cars-vulnerable-wireless-hacking/23094215/

Just off the top of my head

 

[kdarling]

Unless you can provide some quote, hyperlink, please, it did not happen.

They're right, there have been really damaging PC viruses, like the one that encrypts your entire hard drive.

But that kind of thing isn't possible with iOS, with its sandboxed apps.

I think some objectors are actually thinking of jailbroken devices, not one that's still set up normally.

 

[ReneR]

They're right, there have been really damaging PC viruses, like the one that encrypts your entire hard drive.

But that kind of thing isn't possible with iOS, with its sandboxed apps.

I think some objectors are actually thinking of jailbroken devices, not one that's still set up normally.

I thought they meant hardware damage as there also were usually references to warrantee and such.
Software for me is anyway only reinstalling the last backup.

 

[Stella]

Its a warning to the user. I'm not quite understand why you bought up the legally binding part.. Of course its not, and doesn't have to be.

Warnings are not legally binding in the vast majority of cases you can think of.
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100%

 

[ReneR]

https://www.wired.com/2015/01/german-steel-mill-hack-destruction/
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...rt-cars-vulnerable-wireless-hacking/23094215/

Just off the top of my head

And you do realize neither has something to do with person computer security?

There also were iOS wireless baseband security issues in the past, and the AppStore protects you not at all for kernel level wireless attacks.

Just underlines my point: there is some much real security work to be done that Apple should rather employ more security researchers and developers and do their kernel and wireless drivers right than silly business driven pseudo app review.

 

[uH WhAt]

Okay, this seems to be the core of your opposition, and that of many others.

You are worried that letting other people access other sources will include sources full of virus laden apps.

Except of course, that wouldn't apply to you, since you wouldn't stray outside of Apple's store. So where's the problem?

--

Btw, do you own a personal computer of any kind? Perhaps a Mac? Have you only ever gotten apps from Apple? Or are you like most people, and have gotten apps from plenty of other places.

No I like the idea of a closed system. You prefer an open system, GUESS WHAT it exits at google and nothing is stopping you from going there. The problem is that you want Googles system in place in a mac environment for no other reason that it satisfies your need for open environment and that includes all the problem it has with fake apps.

Look I own PC, I own a Macbook Pro, iMac, G4 Cube, Alienware, HP and they each fulfill their function for various things and i like the fact that things just work on an apple product without all the fidgeting and working you have to do just to get things to run. You like shareware and other misc programs, great, fantastic, Google has all those app that eat up battery life, have security issues and steal your info while Apple has a better track record.

It thought this was Macrumors not GameFaqs...

 

[ReneR]

[doublepost=1484343009][/doublepost]
Every state. It is federal law.

Mike

Sorry, when I say state I actually think country. As I'm currently not living int the US.

 

[uH WhAt]

And you do realize neither has something to do with person computer security?

There also were iOS wireless baseband security issues in the past, and the AppStore protects you not at all for kernel level wireless attacks.

Your right, with all the home automation apps out there now some nefarious D-bag on Uncle Joeys cheap app site could create an app that get into those programs an causes significant damage to my house.

 

[ReneR]

No I like the idea of a closed system. You prefer an open system, GUESS WHAT it exits at google and nothing is stopping you from going there. The problem is that you want Googles system in place in a mac environment for no other reason that it satisfies your need for open environment and that includes all the problem it has with fake apps.

Look I own PC, I own a Macbook Pro, iMac, G4 Cube, Alienware, HP and they each fulfill their function for various things and i like the fact that things just work on an apple product without all the fidgeting and working you have to do just to get things to run. You like shareware and other misc programs, great, fantastic, Google has all those app that eat up battery life, have security issues and steal your info while Apple has a better track record.

It thought this was Macrumors not GameFaqs...

Do you not realize what small detail you spend so much energy about? Open closed system philosophy lecture?

The iPhone is already "open", wen can install apps on it. We only argue an ask for more reasonable permanent install options also for end users.

This would not at all influence your dream of your wonderful closed system (so closed you can install apps form the App Store).

The only reasonable small thing we discuss is a proper "install app from developer xyz" yes / no option.

And which end user would not love to have such an option every now and then?
You never have to press it and your so very much closed systems is not comprised in any way.
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Then whats the reasoning behind creating a marketplace that does not have to go thru Apples Certification process, unless its to create inferior products not up to apples standard. Otherwise do what they all the other developers do.

Inferiour like more awesome music marketplace, or better snappier web browser engine all of which Apple does not allow?

Or the nightshift color mode that first was approved, then rejected, and later re-implemtned by apple as core iOS functionally?

Or an AirPod locator application?

And so on and so forth?

Yeah, totally inferiors.

 

[uH WhAt]

Do you not realize what small detail you spend so much energy about? Open closed system philosophy lecture?

The iPhone is already "open", wen can install apps on it. We only argue an ask for more reasonable permanent install options also for end users.

This would not at all influence your dream of your wonderful closed system (so closed you can install apps form the App Store).

The only reasonable small thing we discuss is a proper "install app from developer xyz" yes / no option.

And which end user would not love to have such an option every now and then?
You never have to press it and your so very much closed systems is not comprised in any way.

And you can go to Google for that. I use 10 aps on my phone. They may not be the best/fastest, but they do what i want when i want it. And the reality is that there's no app you can make that's gonna be revolutionary that already isn't out there. Oh another candy crush/clash of clans clone. Pushing high level psych discussion at this point is a joke