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Digitally duplicating an mp3 is a synch. Putting it on a CD is already done and it's called the black market and it is illegal as it should be.

Can you buy a single movie in iTunes and make it show that you own more than several copies in iTunes? No you can't, you'll actually have to purchase the same movie twice. The same goes for selling it, once it's sold, you won't find it in your iTunes library.

It's a shame how some of us defend a lousy court and congress as they limit our liberties.
 
You can't prove any of that with physical media either. If I sell you a CD, you can't prove that I haven't ripped it first to my computer. The same was true of tapes - you couldn't prove I didn't use my boombox for tapes

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You missed the point completely.
Selling the ORIGINAL CD is allowed under first sale doctrine.
Nothing illegal about that and it's very easy to prove.

You ripping a copy and then selling the original CD is illegal under current copyright law and it's easy to prove.
The copyright holder can demand you produce the original CD or they can sue you for infringement.
 
How would you resell music anyways? What's stopping you from selling file copies? I think I don't understand..

Artists creating paintings or music albums do not sell rights for the buyer to make copies and profit from sales of the copies. That's what copyrights are all about.
 
It will be interesting to see how this position is maintained when taking the judgment of the European Court of Justice into account, which ruled last year that software downloaded from the Internet is to be covered by the 'first-sale rule'. Word has it the judgment may be extended to other types of digital content including music. With such a large jurisdiction, this must have some effect on the market for digital media, and makes the US look rather outdated.
 
This sucks. Soon, one can no longer (legally) resell a CD if the record company dislikes it. Physical media or not, the content is still digital.

It better be an April Fool's joke.

You are being completely irrational. First Sale doctrine for CDs is based on laws that are decades old - and these laws quite clearly don't cover music or any copyrighted works that you download. And clearly a court cannot just introduce new laws as they see fit.

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If it were legal to sell songs downloaded from iTunes, people could resell the same file over and over again, making a huge profit.

Or am I just confused?

That wouldn't be "selling". That would be making copies (illegal) and selling them. "Selling" means that after the sale, you don't have it anymore. If you sell a CD that you own, any copies of the music that happened to be on your computer, on your backup disk, on your iPod or iPhone etc. are suddenly all illegal copies and must be destroyed.

_If_ it were legal to sell downloaded songs, you could sell each downloaded song only once.


...as to the topic at hand, the licensing model is pretty clear, but I'd love to see some clarification on inheritance. I have a loooooot of iTMS purchases that I want to make sure can pass through to my wife and then children. Yes obviously I'll give them the login info, but that's a stopgap measure. Transferability is going to become necessary down the road.

One could argue that since you can't sell the music, it is still yours forever after you die. And that people who were allowed to play your music are still allowed to play it forever. So in fifty years time, your grandson or granddaughter will have your music, your wife's music, and their parents music on their computers; it isn't your grandson's and will never be, but they can play it forever.

Another interesting question: If you are in debt, some bailliff could come and take your iPod and sell it at an auction to make money. Clearly they are not allowed to destroy your property. So what if your iPod contains the only copy of your music? They wouldn't be allowed to sell the iPod together with the music, and they wouldn't be allowed to destroy the music.
 
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You ripping a copy and then selling the original CD is illegal under current copyright law and it's easy to prove.
The copyright holder can demand you produce the original CD or they can sue you for infringement.

This is exactly what happened to an acquaintance of mine in 2003. He was fined about $15,000 for not having all the originals to what was on his laptop and external hard-drive. He was just a for hire DJ, doing weddings, parties, etc... and he peeved off somebody in ARIA by continuously complaining about the sham music charts that they have based on music shipped and not sold, so they came gunning for him.
 
Well, iTunes has no DRM, but it has your apple ID encoded in it. So, there's your first sale. You can copy it, but it will always have the e-mail address of the first buyer.

That's just a convenience so that iTunes can recognize music that you purchased and show it under "purchased music". I got quite a few ebooks from a non-Apple store and used the same email address as my AppleID, and these ebooks also turn up as "purchased from Apple", even though they are not. Nobody stops you from putting your email address into music that you ripped from your own CDs; iTunes will incorrectly believe you purchased the music from iTunes, but that's not your problem.

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My understanding was that this was clear via the license agreement we have to OK before making iTunes purchases. :confused:

The difference is that for a physical CD, such a license agreement would be invalid and unenforcable. There are specific laws that say the copyright holder cannot stop you from reselling copyrighted works that were produced and purchased legally.
 
Cd's are digital....

It is a physical storage of a digital item.

The only difference between that and itunes music is that itunes music is stored "online" in an apple server. You should have the option to permanently download the music file so that you can sell it and not be able to download it again.

Face it, this is the way the industry is going. Microsoft and Sony are both making their next consoles play downloadable games only so that third party retailers like gamestop can't resell games taking away from developer profits.
 
Can you buy a single movie in iTunes and make it show that you own more than several copies in iTunes? No you can't, you'll actually have to purchase the same movie twice. The same goes for selling it, once it's sold, you won't find it in your iTunes library.

Not true. I can open the directory where the movie is stored, and copy it as I please. Even more convenient if you don't buy from iTunes (does anyone still do that? So much more $$$).

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You should have the option to permanently download the music file so that you can sell it and not be able to download it again.

Huh? What if you want to actually buy it again?
 
To right... I fully agree with this. Its a business... how would you feel if someone did the same to you.

True, why should you need to cater for someone else you just can't afford it.... Either you get it, or you don't.

Besides, if you sold the item, they'd probably sell it at a discount..

How many people even realise when you "buy" something on iTunes, you never own it ...?
 
How would you resell music anyways? What's stopping you from selling file copies? I think I don't understand..

I think it would be about selling the license in say iTunes or whatever you use. It would leave some questions to be answered like do we put DRM back into the picture to prevent you from using he media you just sold. Still it doesn't look like we will figure it out because it's not going to be legal.
 
Nope. First sales applies to physical goods, where ownership is without a doubt.

With digital, there's no way to determine whether you are only selling a copy.

Actually, there is a way to tell if you're selling a copy. See my response to the next guy.

It forever eludes me why courts have such a hard time grasping technological things. For every technological thing there is a physical equal, and the court should simply interpret based on the precedent that has been set forth. Digital music should be treated no different than CDs, tapes, cassetes, betamax, vinyl, whatever.

While I also think that those that enforce the law should have a better grasp of technology, the irony here is that they understand technology enough to apply the same law to it that they apply to CDs/tape/etc. When you move a digital file from one location to another, you ARE making a copy. You can't NOT make a copy. Even if you "delete" the original, you are still selling a copy. The law is quite clear that you can't reproduce a work of art and resell it without authorization from the party that owns the work of art. In effect, they ARE enforcing the law against digital works the same way they enforce the physical medium.

Sometimes artists sell the rights to their work of art with the physical medium. Other times they retain the rights to reproduce the art and do not grant them to you. This is especially true in Photography, where you might purchase the use of an image, but are limited in what you can do with it (no commercial use, for example).

This. If I purchase music, then I should truly OWN the music and do with it as I please.

This is not a common thing. You usually own the rights to poses a work of art, but rarely do you own the rights to do with it as you please. A common misconception, but if you think about it for a second I hope you'll realize that to poses something does not give you the "right" to do with it as you please.



Agreed but increasingly in the digital world, everything is turning into "you own the license to view the content, not own it". Technology is allowing the owners to control the content completely and we're letting them get away with it.

You have it backwards. Technology is allowing them to enforce laws that have always existed but were difficult to enforce. Perhaps in the digital age those laws need to change, but not because of reasons I've seen stated here. Copying a work of art and redistributing it for a profit has been illegal for most works of art since the dawn of copy-right. The digital age has just made it stupidly easy to do something that has always been illegal.

How about this one: I went to a pretty small college, and the Student body would put on a movie in one of the central buildings once a week. They did that, until they found out that when you "own" a movie, you have the right to show it to 10 (not sure on the number) people but no more than that. You need an additional license to put a movie on and have more than X number of people watch it. This is regardless of whether you charge money for the viewing or not (we weren't).

Now, is this law readily enforceable? No. And unless you leave a paper trail (like fliers all over campus inviting the entire student body) no court is likely to care. But it is illegal none the less. If they come out with a technology tomorrow that allows them to enforce this law it will be a huge change to the way we watch movies, BUT it won't be a change in law, or technology somehow twisting the law.

The concept of copyright has always been rooted in the idea that you do not own the content/music/movie. You own one licensed copy fixed in a tangible format.

Exactly.
 
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If it makes anyone feel better, I met one of the lawyers for ReDigi at my law school last year, and he had no idea what he was talking about when it came to technical stuff. He knew the law (no comment about his legal research/arguing skills, maybe he is brilliant, I don't know) but he was clueless when it came to technology.

Someone in the room asked what he thought about the most common way to bypass iTunes DRM on music (before they got rid of it) by burning a CD and re-ripping it (not an ideal workaround, but whatever, the point was its easy and possible and therefore DRM protection is illusory). He looked like he had no idea what any of that meant.
 
This sucks. Soon, one can no longer (legally) resell a CD if the record company dislikes it. Physical media or not, the content is still digital.

It better be an April Fool's joke.

The courts appear to becoming completely corrupt now just like the rest of the government. They are bought and paid for by Corporate America and this case makes that plainly obvious. Digital and Analog content differ only in how they are stored. Next they will tell you your friend can't come over to play "X" game at your house. He MUST buy his own copy first and be licensed to use it at all times monitored over the Internet by the digital copy police. There will no longer be try anything before you buy (like on iOS) and reselling ANYTHING will become a crime. I mean why should you be able to resell your iPhone either? Apple will simply license or lease you the thing and you will have to destroy it (very green) when you're done with it. Why? Because there's more money in selling a new one to you and Apple makes no money when you sell a used one. Or perhaps they'll just create a specail re-sale TAX instead on used sales (yeah they had such a tax on digital BLANKS as if they were all 100% going to be used to make illegal copies!) to compensate the corporations for their losses when you sell your future product rather than the buyer getting a new one (whatever) from the company. Yeah, it would be a total CROCK and the represent the total destruction of your freedoms as an American, but let's face it. THAT is EXACTLY what the corporations WANT.

What will you or I do about it? NOTHING. We just all bend over it and take every loss of freedom and privacy and act like it doesn't matter. The Founding Fathers would be rolling in their graves if they knew how our country was being turned away from freedom and towards a totalitarian system run by private industry. We don't need to pay you in money! Here, you'll take this corporate currency instead that is only good at our corporate stores (they actually did this in the mining industry in days gone by; look it up. It was designed to keep the workers in perpetual debt).
 
The courts appear to becoming completely corrupt now just like the rest of the government.

First of all, are you 12? The courts action today was to do and change nothing. They enforced the law as it is currently written, which FYI is their job. They didn't change a law or doing anything unprecedented. If there was any "corruption" or "paying off" it was done tens of years ago when the law was written, which means it is far more likely to be a case of imperfect foresight than corruption.

Second, go read the post a few posts above yours for some insight.

The old laws might need to change, but you can do something about that by writing to your government representative. If you do not know the name of your government representative, then kindly **** about how the rest of us are just "bending over" and doing nothing. Have a nice day :)
 
If anything, the courts should be upholding the First Sale doctrine, and thereby encouraging distributors (such as Amazon or Apple) to devise systems making it easy for users to transfer their digital purchases to other account-holders.

I read through the District Court's decision and I think there's a bit of confusion. The court is not invalidating the applicability of first sale doctrine in all transfers of digital content. From the judge's conclusion:

However, here, the Court cannot of its own accord condone the wholesale application of the first sale defense to the digital sphere, particularly when Congress itself has declined to take that step.

Congress made the law. The court's interpreting the existing law, and correctly determining that ReDigi's methodology infringes directly, contributorily and vicariously because they are creating a phonorecord by definition. Had Capitol Records sought damages against two individuals where the hard drives containing the licensed music were transferred for consideration exchanged between individuals with no intermediary, the outcome might be vastly different.

Here I honestly think that either the OP did not fully read or understand the court's decision, or they simply slapped "Can't Resell Songs Bought on iTunes" as a sensationalist tactic to get pageviews.

The First Sale Doctrine was never designed to permit a third party to act as a duplication service, which effectively infringes on the role and the right that a copyright owner has... a right that is theirs to license or not license as they see fit. ReDigi never approached Capitol Records, and this reminds me of a case in which a guy I knew was reproducing a John Deere parts catalog simply by copying the pages of their parts catalog, slapping a new binder on it, and charging a fee for it without ever consulting John Deere. I told him, flatly, that it was an open and shut case... and it was.

People like that bother me deeply because they don't care about the potential impact that case law against their favor has on the individual consumer, you, and like we found when Napster handed over their user lists, they're quick to sell their customers up the river when the jig is up.... just to get the heat off themselves after charging you money for a completely pointless transaction that needed no middleman. i.e. creating a bogus business model out of thin air (which is not even remotely comparable to what record labels do when they finance the recording, marketing, promotion and distribution of artists... we can argue the merits/flaws in the compensation model separately).

I don't see anything in this case that makes it applicable to a bona-fide "first sale" transaction in which the physical material that was initially licensed for your use (the download to your computer) is physically transferred to another person for personal use.

When the judge writes "the court cannot... condone the wholesale application of the first sale defense" he's saying that "first sale" cannot be applied to every type of digital transaction... not that it is wholly inapplicable to transactions involving digital media the fixed copies of which are transferred physically and the possession of the original is in some bona-fide way relinquished to the new owner.

ReDigi was being moronic for their own commercial gain, period. I've never heard of a case falling under the jurisprudence of the 1992 Audio Home Recording Act's parameters *ever* going to a record label's favor. Neither 17 USC 5 nor 17 USC 12 (DMCA) supersedes that act.
 
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My understanding was that this was clear via the license agreement we have to OK before making iTunes purchases. :confused:

Contracts are not immune to legal misconceptions.

It's pretty viable allowing someone to sell digital media while preventing piracy, principally if the medium is DRMed. With non-DRMed files the control is a bit more difficult, but there are mechanisms like creating a central database (like CDDB) which would index media files and owners, preventing them from selling media twice or keeping the file he sold. OS updates would do the job silently (except Linux maybe).
 
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Contracts are not immune to legal misconceptions.

It's pretty viable allowing someone to sell digital media while preventing piracy, principally if the medium is DRMed. If not, the control is a bit more difficult, but there are mechanisms like a central database (like CDDB) which would index media files and owners preventing them from selling media twice or keeping the medium he sold.

This case has absolutely nothing to do with the EULA. ReDigi is the defendant, not the licensed iTunes users. The summary by the OP who published this article is misleading when you read the particulars of the court's actual decision.
 
Digital downloads are often more expensive than the CD versions, you can't resell them and they're mostly of inferior quality. They also cut costs for labels as there is no physical media to press, distribute and have to eat the costs of if it doesn't sell.

In other words, the consumer gets the shaft several ways on this deal. So yeah, tell me more about how you don't think corporations are greedy.

Not always, I gotten iTunes WAY cheaper on some stuff. Now what they do is make special editions too. The Target CD will some extra songs, Wal-Mart will have other extras, and so will iTunes. It's funny because I buy iTunes for the fact I don't want to let people use my CD, scratch them, cause arguments, and so on. There are so many works around anyways with iTunes.

The last CD I got was at the stores for $12.99, iTunes has it for $8.99. To each it's own, I personally like iTunes for music.
 
Contracts are not immune to legal misconceptions.

It's pretty viable allowing someone to sell digital media while preventing piracy, principally if the medium is DRMed. If not, the control is a bit more difficult, but there are mechanisms like a central database (like CDDB) which would index media files and owners preventing them from selling media twice or keeping the medium he sold.

At the same time, it's not beyond the copyright holders legal right to sell a single non-transferable license. Restricted use licenses are very common, and predate digital medium.

What digital medium has done for these license is two fold:
1) They are becoming more enforceable in many aspects
2) They are becoming easier to violate, making the violation a greater financial hit.

Maybe we'd like business practice to change, or laws to be rewritten. We're seeing paradigm shifts which we may or may not like, but that doesn't make the copyright holder a violator of ethics, or those that enforce old laws corrupt.
 
Am I missing something here? It really looks like they're working to maintain a situation where pirated media even more valuable than so called legitimate media. Is this their intention?
 
It forever eludes me why courts have such a hard time grasping technological things. For every technological thing there is a physical equal, and the court should simply interpret based on the precedent that has been set forth. Digital music should be treated no different than CDs, tapes, cassetes, betamax, vinyl, whatever. Its really like using a GPS tracker for law enforcement to track a car should be no different than having an officer tail the car from a warrant point of view.

We need some judges and lawyers that have a strong technology background to get promoted to the bench and start making sense of the situation.

What makes you so sure we don't have technically astute attorneys and judges? Just because they render verdicts you don't like isn't an argument that they aren't.
 
Anyone else smell the hypocrisy in this phrase?

"...particularly when Congress itself has declined to take that step."

The courts won't listen to the people, but it will listen to the most corrupt group of politicians. Sadly, this no longer ironic.

The politicians are the ones who have to listen to the people. The courts have to listen to the law.

They can't just invent new laws (effectively, by setting precedent unsupported by law) or choose to not enforce some parts of it depending on public opinion. That's not their job.

It's very important to democracy that they don't do this; otherwise they become essentially part of the government.

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It forever eludes me why courts have such a hard time grasping technological things. For every technological thing there is a physical equal, and the court should simply interpret based on the precedent that has been set forth. Digital music should be treated no different than CDs, tapes, cassetes, betamax, vinyl, whatever. Its really like using a GPS tracker for law enforcement to track a car should be no different than having an officer tail the car from a warrant point of view.

We need some judges and lawyers that have a strong technology background to get promoted to the bench and start making sense of the situation.

Digital products are different to physical products, though. For one thing they don't deteriorate or show signs of use: there's no downside to buying a "used" MP3 that distinguishes it from buying an original copy. That has no physical analog. I don't think that should disqualify it, but its an example of how digital products can raise new questions that are difficult to broadly established principles to.

The courts, for all their technical aptitude, have to follow the law. If you're not happy with the law, direct your accusations towards the politicians unwilling to answer questions such as what consumer rights you have for digital content.
 
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