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Resolved Cracked Fan -> Quicksilver Chainsaw Massacre (of my ear drums)
- Thread starter tevion5
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I would say yes, cooling is not something that you would want to skimp on for these computers.
You could see what kind of temperatures you are running at, but I don't know what the correct temperature for a quicksilver is.
It's hard to gauge them well, since the only built-in temperature sensors are the SMART sensors in the hard drive.
I even a Quicksilver running with an upgrade card that has dual 7447As. These are the same processor used in later Powerbooks, and have thermal diode in the processor die. I've been unable to find a program that can read these sensors.
But you could get a better fan or just as good fan for less. Here you pay a premium just because it is the original for the Powermac.
Actually, looking on ebay, other 85cfm fans seem to be more expensive (and there aren't many, or I'm not searching right) so that fan may actually be a good price.
But for a few bucks more you can get a higher cfm Delta fan.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...1.m570.l1313&_nkw=120mm+high+cfm+fan&_sacat=0
I have exactly the same issue with my Quicksilver. This thread has been very helpful. I've had it for over a decade and I bought it used in the early 2000s then. I've added so many things to it, that it won't boot OS 9 anymore:
Flashed and modified AGP8x GPU
SATA PCI card
USB 2.0 PCI card
Dual CPU module from an 800Mhz 2001 Quicksilver.
I was just using it as a backup server and to run some older PPC software that won't run with emulation but I'm glad it's possible to fix it.
It sounds absolutely deafeningly loud!
Flashed and modified AGP8x GPU
SATA PCI card
USB 2.0 PCI card
Dual CPU module from an 800Mhz 2001 Quicksilver.
I was just using it as a backup server and to run some older PPC software that won't run with emulation but I'm glad it's possible to fix it.
It sounds absolutely deafeningly loud!
Replace the fans!
I have replaced the PSU fan, the case fan and the smaller intake fan. Additionally, I have added another 120mm fan to the bottom (as indicated above, cutting a hole in the bottom of the case), my hard drives have drive coolers attached (two fans each) and added one additional 80mm fan temporarily.
My Quicksilver does not sound loud. It may (I don't know, my wife hasn't said anything about it) sound louder than people are accustomed to, but to me it generally sounds like an air conditioner fan on low. I never really notice it, but then I am accustomed to hearing fans since I work and live with computers.
Replace the fans!
I have replaced the PSU fan, the case fan and the smaller intake fan. Additionally, I have added another 120mm fan to the bottom (as indicated above, cutting a hole in the bottom of the case), my hard drives have drive coolers attached (two fans each) and added one additional 80mm fan temporarily.
My Quicksilver does not sound loud. It may (I don't know, my wife hasn't said anything about it) sound louder than people are accustomed to, but to me it generally sounds like an air conditioner fan on low. I never really notice it, but then I am accustomed to hearing fans since I work and live with computers.
So your new fans were much quieter than the stock fans? What were the stock fans? Were they ball bearing?
No idea. I did not and do not now really pay any attention to that. My assumption was that the stock fans were designed for a conservative load out on the Mac circa 2001 and that any higher quality fans purchased in 2013-2014 were highly likely to be better performing and higher in CFM. For the various sizes I needed I purchased the highest CFM I could find that was on the store shelves at the time I was buying.
I did not replace the stock fans because they were noisy, I replaced them because I had a need to remove a much larger amount of heat due to the fact that I had a larger processor, multiple PCI cards and multiple hard drives (both IDE and SATA). When you load the space down and close the Mac up there's very little room in there for ventilation. It's a very poor thermal design by Apple.
But then I don't think Apple anticipated I'd be running a CPU upgrade, three display cards a SATA card, SATA drives and a FW400/USB 2.0 combo card.
The noise of all the fans combined is perhaps somewhat louder than stock, but I don't have any issues with it. The Mac is quiet to me. I hear the same level of noise I hear from the two G4's sitting next to my left ear at work. And my Quicksilver is also partially under my desk so that probably masks it too a bit. However, I didn't buy any of the fans for silent operation. I chose CFM over decibels.
I'm pretty sure that the blower pointed out the ZIP slot on my Quicksilver is still the most obnoxious I've run across, although it moved a LOT of air out of the case-enough that the case bottom was essentially at ambient and the hard drives stayed around 75ºF.
I need to tinker with the voltages on it to find one where it still moves a decent amount of air but is not obnoxious. Since this is a centrifugal fan, it needs to spin at certain speed to actually move any appreciable amount of air. At 7V, it turns slowly enough that it might as well not be running.
All of that said, I'm pretty sure that the loudest Mac I have is my Xserve. I counted 10 fans in it that I could easily find, and there might be a few hiding that I can't see. Due to space constraints, the fans are about 20mm in diameter. There's an array of 6 fans right in front of the processor cars that draw air into two ducts placed between the hard drive bays. There are a few other fans behind the processors to cool key spots, such as the PSU, northbridge, and PCI cage. It loud-although not obnoxiously so, at idle. What's really fun is to run it in open firmware or target disk mode for an extended period of time. None of the fan controllers are active, so it just kicks everything on full blast. I can't stand to be in the same room with it.
And, speaking of rackmounts, I also have to put in a plug for the 3U IBMs that I have. These have 10 hot-swappable fans, each 40mm and stacked two deep across the width of the system about mid-way back(between the hard drives up front and the CPUs toward the back. I think there are also a few others hiding in it-I'd guess at least one in each of the PSUs(these have two PSUs each). When powered up, everything runs at full blast for a couple of seconds. Even when idling, they're a fair bit louder than the Xserve.
Of course, server equipment isn't really a fair comparison-most is designed to run essentially unattended without people around, so noise isn't so much a concern but keeping everything cool to minimize downtime and extend MTBF is paramount.
I need to tinker with the voltages on it to find one where it still moves a decent amount of air but is not obnoxious. Since this is a centrifugal fan, it needs to spin at certain speed to actually move any appreciable amount of air. At 7V, it turns slowly enough that it might as well not be running.
All of that said, I'm pretty sure that the loudest Mac I have is my Xserve. I counted 10 fans in it that I could easily find, and there might be a few hiding that I can't see. Due to space constraints, the fans are about 20mm in diameter. There's an array of 6 fans right in front of the processor cars that draw air into two ducts placed between the hard drive bays. There are a few other fans behind the processors to cool key spots, such as the PSU, northbridge, and PCI cage. It loud-although not obnoxiously so, at idle. What's really fun is to run it in open firmware or target disk mode for an extended period of time. None of the fan controllers are active, so it just kicks everything on full blast. I can't stand to be in the same room with it.
And, speaking of rackmounts, I also have to put in a plug for the 3U IBMs that I have. These have 10 hot-swappable fans, each 40mm and stacked two deep across the width of the system about mid-way back(between the hard drives up front and the CPUs toward the back. I think there are also a few others hiding in it-I'd guess at least one in each of the PSUs(these have two PSUs each). When powered up, everything runs at full blast for a couple of seconds. Even when idling, they're a fair bit louder than the Xserve.
Of course, server equipment isn't really a fair comparison-most is designed to run essentially unattended without people around, so noise isn't so much a concern but keeping everything cool to minimize downtime and extend MTBF is paramount.
That vacuum cleaner of yours... I think the 3 fans i have are the same as yours. Is your fan an NMB-MAT? Is it 2.65 A?
If it is and if it does have 4 wires, then the speed is controlled by the 4th wire, not by changing the voltage. 4-wire fans use some fancy integrated circuits (like "smart" fans) and changing the voltage is not the correct way to change the speed. It may not function properly. The speed is controlled with pulse width modulation (PWM) and you need a special PWM controller to control these 4-wire PWM fans. Here is a mini PWM fan controller which is perfect for fans like these.
Update:
Hearing how some of you guys have reservations as to the CFM of the cheap fan I ordered, I thought I would give repairing the original fan a go. I used some powerful plastic glue that has fixed fiddly bits of my iMac G3 and PowerBook 140 very well. Namely, the little clips that keep the access bay doors closed on both machines. Now they are better than ever.
So last night I sealed the gaps between the fan blade with this glue and let it set. Today I assembled it back into the Quicksilver and, so far, everything seems to be perfect. I will see how long this lasts. But if I can get through a day without any robot audio erotica blasting out of the case, then I'll be confident enough about leaving it be.
The other fan I ordered I'll keep as a general backup, for any of my systems.
Hearing how some of you guys have reservations as to the CFM of the cheap fan I ordered, I thought I would give repairing the original fan a go. I used some powerful plastic glue that has fixed fiddly bits of my iMac G3 and PowerBook 140 very well. Namely, the little clips that keep the access bay doors closed on both machines. Now they are better than ever.
So last night I sealed the gaps between the fan blade with this glue and let it set. Today I assembled it back into the Quicksilver and, so far, everything seems to be perfect. I will see how long this lasts. But if I can get through a day without any robot audio erotica blasting out of the case, then I'll be confident enough about leaving it be.
The other fan I ordered I'll keep as a general backup, for any of my systems.
I'd still replace it with the new fan, or at least try it out. Put it in, check the temperatures, and if it runs to hot, put the old one back in.
I might try the new one if I feel like going through the teardown process again. It'll go quicker I suppose the second time. I'm sure it would run quieter.
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Ran the systems for nearly 5 hours today. I ran geekbench stress tests and some high quality video to heat the system up as much as I could.
SMART sensor reported a peak of around 43*C. While I have nothing to compare that to, that sounds quite acceptable, especially considering this it's a volcano-based-processor/PowerPC.
SMART sensor reported a peak of around 43*C. While I have nothing to compare that to, that sounds quite acceptable, especially considering this it's a volcano-based-processor/PowerPC.
Sounds about right. Typically my highest point is 108º with my main hard drive. Right now it's 111º but I've been pushing the Mac a little bit at the moment.
The dual 1ghz like you have is probably on the threshold of the QS's thermal design. You'll notice that on the MDD-where the dual 1ghz was mid-range processor option in the first generation-the case was completely redesigned so that the big 120mm main case fan blows directly across the heatsink and out the back of the computer.
Yes, I meant Fahrenheit. Tevion lives in Ireland so I expected Celsius from him because he understands it.
But I live in the USA so I posted back in Fahrenheit.
FWIW, the the main HDD in my dual 1ghz Quicksilver is currently reporting 93ºF. This is not the one with the cracked fan that I repaired. All three fans(PSU, CPU, and main case fan) are original.
I've kept both CPUs pegged at 100% for about the past 10 minutes, and have been watching the temperature of the lower(main) HDD. It seems to have stabilized at 93ºF. This particular drive is a 500gb WD Blue 7200rpm IDE.
And, for general information, I have the following:
Stock dual 1ghz
Radeon 9600XT, driving an ADC high-res Cinema Display and a second 1280x1024 display
Factory SCSI card, currently not doing anything(it's not recognized under Leopard, although I use it in Tiger to run a scanner)
Combo USB 2.0/FW400 card
Airport Extreme compatible Motorola Wi-Fi card.
There's also a second 7200rpm, 160gb IDE HDD sitting on top of the main HDD.
The heatsink is uncomfortably hot to the touch.
I've kept both CPUs pegged at 100% for about the past 10 minutes, and have been watching the temperature of the lower(main) HDD. It seems to have stabilized at 93ºF. This particular drive is a 500gb WD Blue 7200rpm IDE.
And, for general information, I have the following:
Stock dual 1ghz
Radeon 9600XT, driving an ADC high-res Cinema Display and a second 1280x1024 display
Factory SCSI card, currently not doing anything(it's not recognized under Leopard, although I use it in Tiger to run a scanner)
Combo USB 2.0/FW400 card
Airport Extreme compatible Motorola Wi-Fi card.
There's also a second 7200rpm, 160gb IDE HDD sitting on top of the main HDD.
The heatsink is uncomfortably hot to the touch.
Right guys, the new fan arrived today and I just finished fitting it into the system, leaving the glued up original on the shelf for now. I'll run some stress tests and heat the system up for a few hours and report back with temperature to compare it to the old fan. It does run a little quiter now. However, I think the design of the case itself resonates sound very well, and as a musician I suspect that it is indeed the case that is a major contributer to the famous noisiness of some G4's.
My gaming PC for example has more fans, mostly dirt cheap ones. Yet it makes much less noise in operations. Those low frequency sounds resonate well over distance.
My gaming PC for example has more fans, mostly dirt cheap ones. Yet it makes much less noise in operations. Those low frequency sounds resonate well over distance.
haha yeah they're like a guitar or drum hehe.
Maybe using rubber things to hold the fans in place instead of hard screws would be better.Like these in the image attached below.
They would insulate the vibrations of the fan from the case so the vibrations don't travel into the case and use it as an amplifier.
Attachments
Alright great news people! This new fan is working well. It is slightly quiter than the stock fan, and after hours of cinebench (the poor darling was up against quad core Xeons...), I can report that the temperature has not gone above 41*C. That's 2 degrees cooler than the stock fan! Looks like I'll be keeping this configuration for the conceivable future so.
Thanks for all the help and feedback!
Thanks for all the help and feedback!
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