Craig Federighi Demos New iPad Pro and Magic Keyboard

[chucker23n1]

No, they “lock” the chip design nearly 3 years before release.

Deciding which chip makes it into a product has nothing to do with chip design.

I’ve had conversations directly with people at Apple responsible for this part of their business.

The people at Apple responsible for chip design don't make the decision on whether the iPad Pro gets an A13X or an A12Z. They make the decision on which features the A16 gets or doesn't get, not which devices end up with it.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Deciding which chip makes it into a product has nothing to do with chip design.



The people at Apple responsible for chip design don't make the decision on whether the iPad Pro gets an A13X or an A12Z. They make the decision on which features the A16 gets or doesn't get, not which devices end up with it.

You really have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m not trying to be rude. I interact with these people as part of my job. It’s all linked together.

 

[Jury]

What kind of smartphone ships with a 7000 mAh battery? And what 7000 mAh battery is "very light"?

Clearly, you don't know much about the types of battery.

 

[Jury]

No, it is not “very light,” so stop just making stuff up.


First, you said 7000mAH. That’s more than twice the size of an iPhone battery. A battery of that capacity, by itself, weighs around 100g (or 0.22 lbs). An iPad 11 weighs around 470g.

Once you put a battery in, you also need to provide it with structural protection to prevent it from being damaged and causing fires, and you also have to add a chip to regulate charging/discharging, and given that iPad Pros can use chargers up to 18W, you need to provide some beefy internal wires and circuitry. You’re looking at at least 150g or more to implement your scheme (there’s a reason 7000mAH battery packs are not light, and those don’t have to handle fast charging, usually).

The existing Smart Keyboard folio for an 11” ipad weighs 297 grams. Not sure what the Magic Keyboard for iPad weighs, but I’m sure most of us are not interested in tacking on the weight of an extra half a folio to our devices when we can easily bring along an external battery pack when we need it.

Stop with your BS excuse, you don't know anything about how the lithium-ion battery works and comes up with nonsense negativity of extra weight.

 

[chucker23n1]

Clearly, you don't know much about the types of battery.

Stop with your BS excuse, you don't know anything about how the lithium-ion battery works and comes up with nonsense negativity of extra weight.

He's a processor engineer who worked at Motorola and AMD. He probably knows more about this stuff than you and I combined. (I am but a mere software engineer.)

Please feel free to find a suitable 7000 mAh (that's the spec you cited) battery that is significantly below his cited 150 grams. You'll get rich quick!

 

[Jury]

He's a processor engineer who worked at Motorola and AMD. He probably knows more about this stuff than you and I combined. (I am but a mere software engineer.)

Please feel free to find a suitable 7000 mAh (that's the spec you cited) battery that is significantly below his cited 150 grams. You'll get rich quick!

The typical lithium-ion battery weight for smartphone is around 30 grams and you are a mistaken to think it can add significant bulkiness to the overall keyboard.

 

[chucker23n1]

The typical lithium-ion battery weight for smartphone is around 30 grams

The typical LiIo battery for smartphones is nowhere near 7000 mAh, so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

and you are a mistaken to think it can add significant bulkiness to the overall keyboard.

I didn't even say anything about bulk, but yes, much of the volume of an iPad is in fact filled with the battery.

 

[cmaier]

He's a processor engineer who worked at Motorola and AMD. He probably knows more about this stuff than you and I combined. (I am but a mere software engineer.)

Please feel free to find a suitable 7000 mAh (that's the spec you cited) battery that is significantly below his cited 150 grams. You'll get rich quick!

Not Motorola My PowerPC work was at Exponential Technology (obscure now, but known well in the Apple community back in the day.)

I am no battery expert, but the specs of lithium batteries are easily available on the internet.

and since people will want to support the 18W charger in the case, with pass through to the iPad and to charge the hypothetical battery in the keyboard, that circuitry indefinitelt understand and it’s not massless and volume less, either

 

[chucker23n1]

Not Motorola My PowerPC work was at Exponential Technology (obscure now, but known well in the Apple community back in the day.)

Yeah, I know of Exponential. (Fun fact: their quasi-successor company, Intrinsity, ended up getting bought by Apple, and is one of the companies among PA Semi that presumably ended up forming today's Apple Ax design division.)

I knew I was going out on a limb on that one. Sorry for the mixup!

I am no battery expert, but the specs of lithium batteries are easily available on the internet.

I honestly have no idea how Jury came up with the oddly specific number of 7000 mAh, or why they think that won't be particularly heavy.

I do think a good case can be made that the Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro should include a battery. But the original implication was that Apple only didn't include one as a cost-saving measure; that's clearly not so. Either the added weight would be significant, or the added battery capacity would be useless.

and since people will want to support the 18W charger in the case, with pass through to the iPad and to charge the hypothetical battery in the keyboard, that circuitry indefinitelt understand and it’s not massless and volume less, either

Well, the pass-through is already there. (A bit of a confusing design choice, honestly. You get a USB-C port, but it can only be used for charging.)

I searched the other day and found this power bank. It's exactly 7000 mAh and weighs 159 grams. Let's say Apple is a bit more efficient than that; they can save some of the case, after all. Your 150 grams would still be right on the money. It's not gonna be below 100.

 

[cmaier]

Stop with your BS excuse, you don't know anything about how the lithium-ion battery works and comes up with nonsense negativity of extra weight.

I bring numbers. What do you bring other than personal insults and ad hominen attacks?

The specific energy of lithium ion batteries is in the range of 100–265 W·h/kg.

You wanted a 7000mAh battery (i.e. a 7 Ah battery). The battery produces around 3.7V in apple products. So, 3.7 V x 7 Ah = 25.9 Wh.

Let’s round it to 26Wh.

At specific energy of 100 Wh/kg, that would weigh 260g.
At specific energy of 265 Wh/kg, that would weigh 98g.

So the weight of just the cells is between 98 and 260g, depending on the specific battery chemistry. Given that it’s unlikely Apple is using the highest specific energy batteries, you can bet that my estimate of 150g was pretty close.

And of course none of this includes the weight of charging circuitry, wiring, power controller to shunt current to the battery or ipad as required, physical protection for the cells, etc.

Instead of name-calling and personal insults, bring some math to the table if you have some, and explain why adding a battery doesn’t add significant weight.
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Yeah, I know of Exponential. (Fun fact: their quasi-successor company, Intrinsity, ended up getting bought by Apple, and is one of the companies among PA Semi that presumably ended up forming today's Apple Ax design division.)

I knew I was going out on a limb on that one. Sorry for the mixup!



I honestly have no idea how Jury came up with the oddly specific number of 7000 mAh, or why they think that won't be particularly heavy.

I do think a good case can be made that the Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro should include a battery. But the original implication was that Apple only didn't include one as a cost-saving measure; that's clearly not so. Either the added weight would be significant, or the added battery capacity would be useless.



Well, the pass-through is already there. (A bit of a confusing design choice, honestly. You get a USB-C port, but it can only be used for charging.)

I searched the other day and found this power bank. It's exactly 7000 mAh and weighs 159 grams. Let's say Apple is a bit more efficient than that; they can save some of the case, after all. Your 150 grams would still be right on the money. It's not gonna be below 100.

Pass through is very different when you have to have circuitry that can charge the battery in the case, charge the battery in the ipad, and choose between them.

 

[Jury]

I bring numbers. What do you bring other than personal insults and ad hominen attacks?

The specific energy of lithium ion batteries is in the range of 100–265 W·h/kg.

You wanted a 7000mAh battery (i.e. a 7 Ah battery). The battery produces around 3.7V in apple products. So, 3.7 V x 7 Ah = 25.9 Wh.

Let’s round it to 26Wh.

At specific energy of 100 Wh/kg, that would weigh 260g.
At specific energy of 265 Wh/kg, that would weigh 98g.

So the weight of just the cells is between 98 and 260g, depending on the specific battery chemistry. Given that it’s unlikely Apple is using the highest specific energy batteries, you can bet that my estimate of 150g was pretty close.

And of course none of this includes the weight of charging circuitry, wiring, power controller to shunt current to the battery or ipad as required, physical protection for the cells, etc.

Instead of name-calling and personal insults, bring some math to the table if you have some, and explain why adding a battery doesn’t add significant weight.
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It is quite ridiculous to think lithium-ion battery for the electronics device is heavy. It is less of a concern that outright outweighs the disadvantage.

 

[cmaier]

It is quite ridiculous to think lithium-ion battery for the electronics device is heavy. It is less of a concern that outright outweighs the disadvantage.

You have been given lots of proof of the exact minimum weight for the battery you are asking for, from multiple sources, based both on calculations deriving from physics, and on actual examples currently available for sale. You cannot possibly dispute the weight at this point.

You have also been provided with the current weight of these devices, so that you can compare the added weight to the existing weight and see what percentage difference it makes. So you cannot possibly dispute that.

So instead you just say “it’s ridiculous.” What kind of response is that? What evidence do you have that any of us are incorrect?

And what does your second sentence mean? It’s incomprehensible. The weight is less of a concern that outright outweighs the disadvantage (of the added weight?)? What?

You claim the battery would weigh only 30g. That would give you only about 1000-1500mAh, or approximately 1/10th the size of the iPad Pro battery. What would be the point of that?

If you want to say “I would be happy to deal with significant extra weight in exchange for a battery” that’s a defensible position. But nonsensically repeatedly claiming that there wouldn’t be extra weight and we’re all idiots for thinking that it would is indefensible.

 

[greenmeanie]

If the IPAD had more RAM they might of got me to buy one.

 

[cmaier]

If the IPAD had more RAM they might of got me to buy one.

No, you wouldn’t buy one anyway.

 

[Jury]

You have been given lots of proof of the exact minimum weight for the battery you are asking for, from multiple sources, based both on calculations deriving from physics, and on actual examples currently available for sale. You cannot possibly dispute the weight at this point.

You have also been provided with the current weight of these devices, so that you can compare the added weight to the existing weight and see what percentage difference it makes. So you cannot possibly dispute that.

So instead you just say “it’s ridiculous.” What kind of response is that? What evidence do you have that any of us are incorrect?

And what does your second sentence mean? It’s incomprehensible. The weight is less of a concern that outright outweighs the disadvantage (of the added weight?)? What?

You claim the battery would weigh only 30g. That would give you only about 1000-1500mAh, or approximately 1/10th the size of the iPad Pro battery. What would be the point of that?

If you want to say “I would be happy to deal with significant extra weight in exchange for a battery” that’s a defensible position. But nonsensically repeatedly claiming that there wouldn’t be extra weight and we’re all idiots for thinking that it would is indefensible.

You are overly concerned about the extra weight and guess what? It is still going to be less heavy than the MBA.

 

[Brammy]

You are overly concerned about the extra weight and guess what? It is still going to be less heavy than the MBA.

The 12.9" iPad is 1.42 pounds.The 11" is 1.04. The new MacBook Air is 2.08lbs. Apple has been avoiding the "how heavy is it" question. Jason Snell mentioned in his review they didn't answer the direct question, and instead marketing-speaker their way around it. I am guessing the weight of the keyboard pushes it over the weight of the Air, and maybe jus slightly.

 

[chucker23n1]

The new MacBook Air is 2.08lbs.

2.8, it seems. So that's still quite a bit more than an iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard plus magic lightweight but spacious battery.

 

[Brammy]

2.8, it seems. So that's still quite a bit more than an iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard plus magic lightweight but spacious battery.

Darn typos!

I still think keyboard weights over a pound. Even without the battery they need some weight in the base. That floating design won't solve all of the weight issues. I think it will be close to the Air in weight.

Edit: which by the way is fine for a device you can use -- or not use -- the keyboard at will.

 

[chucker23n1]

Darn typos!

I still think keyboard weights over a pound. Even without the battery they need some weight in the base. That floating design won't solve all of the weight issues. I think it will be close to the Air in weight.

Edit: which by the way is fine for a device you can use -- or not use -- the keyboard at will.

Yeah, I can't find any numbers for the Magic Keyboard. I thought someone say it was around 300 grams, though.

 

[Smearbrick]

Look at that! A portable computer with an attached keyboard. What will they think of next?

 

[cmaier]

Look at that! A portable computer with an attached keyboard. What will they think of next?

It’s attachABLE, not attached.

 

[Smearbrick]

It’s attachABLE, not attached.

Ah, yes. Quite the distinction.

And everyone said that touchscreen laptops were a joke. Until Apple did it, of course.

 

[cmaier]

Ah, yes. Quite the distinction.

And everyone said that touchscreen laptops were a joke. Until Apple did it, of course.

Where is apple’s touch screen laptop?

 

[kognos]

It is meant to be able to adjust to any angle. This is from the Apple page for the new keyboard:

View attachment 900089

Link: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/produ...ad-pro-11-inch-2nd-generation-british-english

We'll see just how magical that really is. Apple is notorious about deciding what they think is the perfect thing on our behalf.

 

[Abazigal]

Ah, yes. Quite the distinction.

And everyone said that touchscreen laptops were a joke. Until Apple did it, of course.

Because they were. Windows wasn't optimised for touch, and windows tablet apps were non-existent. The bulk of touchscreen laptops continued to be used as conventional laptops. As seems to be the trend for Microsoft, they kickstarted a great idea but completely fumbled the execution.

What Apple has done is add improved cursor support to the iPad for the people who need them. Many people are still going to be using it as a touchscreen tablet for consumption and some light productivity. But if you have a use case that happens to benefit from mouse support, such as typing or video editing, the added functionality is there.

And as expected from Apple, they have optimized iPadOS such that UI elements respond to having a cursor hover over and select them. They actually went the distance to design something new rather than simply copy the cursor design from macOS, which is more than what can be said for Microsoft.

People who think that Apple has simply copied the surface pro overlook (or flat out refuse to admit) the software innovations that complement the hardware here. What we have here is not a touchscreen laptop, but a tablet with an OS optimised for touch and direct input, with optional cursor support built in.