Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I wonder......

......If Apple released a new Boot Camp option for the M series iPads.............

able to run ..........

Windows on ARM

or

MacOS

or

iPad OS................

as they already have plenty of horsepower and would run any of them smoothly and without issue...................... It would be ideal from a usability/flexibility/portability perspective and very attractive for a huge number of users.........

BUT

One single reason that it will never happen...... M series iPad sales would probably skyrocket and MacBook Air sales would likely tank..........
Overall Apple would lose sales, those wanting MacOS probably already have a M iPad already and those buying would would do instead of buying/upgrading a Mac. Overall a net loss, especially from those that would stop using both devices and go iPad only. It makes no sense for Apple.
For some of us, absolutely, you buy an iPad and can install MacOS if you want.

By the way the "disadvantages of merging MacOS and iPadOS" arguments have not stopped yet... I am starting to think that some here do it in bad faith, not because they don't understand. Since they have no arguments to oppose to the possibility to virtualize MacOS (which has zero impact on iPad users who don't care about MacOS), they keep on talking of the disavantages of merging the 2 OSs, something hardly anyone wants.
 
Overall Apple would lose sales, those wanting MacOS probably already have a M iPad already and those buying would would do instead of buying/upgrading a Mac. Overall a net loss, especially from those that would stop using both devices and go iPad only. It makes no sense for Apple.
For some of us, absolutely, you buy an iPad and can install MacOS if you want.

By the way the "disadvantages of merging MacOS and iPadOS" arguments have not stopped yet... I am starting to think that some here do it in bad faith, not because they don't understand. Since they have no arguments to oppose to the possibility to virtualize MacOS (which has zero impact on iPad users who don't care about MacOS), they keep on talking of the disavantages of merging the 2 OSs, something hardly anyone wants.
It's not bad faith. If you put it in iPad OS, even with a virtualization wrapper, you have to support all of the features iPad OS has baked in, including and especially touch. Which means you have to test and make accommodations for it. What are you going to do, only support a trackpad and mouse with it?
 
I think there's a lot more that would need to be enabled besides an iPad being updated to toggle between a tablet UI and a desktop UI. If it were that straightforward, Windows 8 would not have been the disaster it were.

There also seems to be some confusion between switching of UIs, and switching of operating systems (like running windows in bootcamp in the past). I will say the latter is actually a lot more cumbersome than some people give it credit for. I initially ran windows 7 on my iMac for PC games, but the process of toggling was so cumbersome that I gave up after all while.

For one, apps would need to be updated to support both iPadOS (optimised for a touchscreen) and macOS (optimised for keyboard and mouse). I am not sure how feasible it is for an to toggle between the iPad version (eg: office or iWork's) and the macOS version. Nor would you want to be stuck with the iOS version of said app (and its enlarged UI)

Second, what does it mean for apps with no desktop equivalent (such as the google drive apps)? Or apps like Terminal or activity monitor in macOS that aren't available for the iPad?

Right now, people seem to be handwaving away all the complexities of managing two different operating systems on a device (they think switching to macOS on an iPad is as straightforward as turning stage manager on and off). I suspect the actual process will neither be as fluid nor as intuitive in real life, and that's where all the speedbumps will start popping up.
That’s why personally I’m not saying “put MacOS on iPad”. I’m saying when docked make iPad behave much more like a Mac. That might in time mean a combined OS, but it’s certainly not just installing current MacOS on iPad.

I get what you’re saying about hand waving, but I’d turn that point around - I think it’s a flawed arguement to simply list the difficulties that would be involved in accomplishing a goal and if proponents of said goal don’t have an immediate solution then to dismiss it as impossible.
 
An iPad Pro could easily be made with the same thermal headroom as a MacBook Air. It's almost the same device now.
Almost the same device? Really? Can I ask where your engineering product design degree is from because I suspect your average 4 year old Sesame Street watcher could get this game right... "One of These Things (Is Not Like the Others)"

ONE OF THESE THINGS.jpg


not meaning to pick on you, sad thing is many people also handwaving in this thread would say the same thing.. because in their minds, same CPU, same machine. Just. Not. True.

But my particular point was thermal headroom. Let's start with on a MacBook the screen is literally separate from the rest of the computer. It's a giant thermal sail radiating heat on its own.

and even the lowly 13" MacBook Air weighs a hefty 2.7 lbs compared to the 13" Airpad Air at half the weight, 1.36 lbs. Mass is a critical component of thermal dissipation. This is a HUGE difference. There are many other factors and I dont claim to be the expert, but the experts know that thermally these two devices are nothing alike. People will wave their hands, but apparently they forgot what happens when the Intel Macs built up heat...

Yeah, nothing alike.


An iPad Pro is a terrible user experience for actual professional work. I've tried to make it work, I really have, it's just not a Pro device. The window management is terrible, and more importantly you can't reliably switch between pro apps without one of them closing. That alone disqualifies it from being Pro.

BTW, I said zippo about the iPad Pro in my message or user experience, so thanks for you opinion, but maybe someone else would have benefited more. My point is that people who smugly claim apple manipulates the devices to increase sales (as the only reason) are just wrong.

But since you brought it up, you are the definition of a Professional? You related to the MIT student Oliver Smoot perhaps? They used his height as a unit of measure, the Smoot, to measure the The Harvard Bridge (364.4 Smoots long, plus one ear.). Point is just because it didnt fit your nice of professional work (which is btw? dont you think that is critical in this analysis?), you dont get to say it doesnt work for other. shrugs.

How many mazz0 professional units is a MBA? a MacBook Pro? Is the Ultra Studio like 21 plus one gpu mazz0's?

If they want to admit that an iPad isn't a Pro device and never will be, and that you need a computer too, then fine, they can stop pretending, stop calling it Pro, stop suggesting someone with an iPad doesn't need a "computer". If they do want it to be Pro, then it needs to have those features (and ideally, for me, a full terminal experience too, though that's more specific to certain industries and not a general purpose pro requirement). And once it has those features, it's basically MacOS. I think that's the main point - it's not how you get there, nobody *really* cares which OS it has on it, just that it works like that.

again with the iPad Pro... this time you want to debate marketing terms?! Sorry, not interested. Could care less what Apple names its devices (as long as I can say it in polite company which regrettably excludes your typical MR hater), but if you want to claim ownership on what a 'pro' name is... let Apple know. Me, I read 'pro' and I dont think that I have to use a device at work, I think, 'more features and more expensive.'

It's an iPad. Thats what it is. For some people it does fill all their needs. For some it does not. Me, I am glad to have a choice in devices.

As for "they're not afraid of cannibalising their own stuff", I agree the iPhone precedent is a strong argument, and I can't say for sure what's different this time, but clearly something is. Could be Jobs vs Cook; could be that they didn't feel they could sell iPhones without cannibalising iPods whereas they do feel they can with iPads and Macs; could be the different competition; could be lots of things. Of course we're really all guessing when make assertions about their motives, all we can safely say is that their excuses don't hold water.

No, those that want to believe in Santa Clause and the Fairy god mother can smugly, I mean safely, declare all they want. Truth is none of us know what motivates Apple in their decisions, yes they are a for profit endeavor, but their road to gold has been about good engineering and design. They dont sell out for profit alone. They wouldn't stay in business if they did.

But okay hey, since you actually do seem to put some thought in to this...just what is the insistence to turn an iPad into a Mac? is it economic? what? I get people like to ridicule the spork analogy, and there are some very very few niche cases for very very few people where a spork IS the right choice, but 99.99% of us could buy sporks, but prefer to eat with a separate fork and spoon. Why is that? Could it be that sometimes there is a right tool for the right job?

People want something for nothing and clicks for free, life doesnt work that way for most things.
 
It's not bad faith. If you put it in iPad OS, even with a virtualization wrapper, you have to support all of the features iPad OS has baked in, including and especially touch. Which means you have to test and make accommodations for it. What are you going to do, only support a trackpad and mouse with it?
MacOS should support touch anyway, Apple’s “touch on an upright screen is bad” argument is BS, as demonstrated every time someone uses the touchscreen on their iPad while it’s docked.
 
Last edited:
MacOS should support touch anyway, Apple’s “touch on an upright screen is bad” argument is BS, as demonstrated every time someone uses the touchscreen on their iPad while it’s docked.
If the Mac has gone 40+ years without touch with another Apple OS supporting touch during half that time span (iOS/iPadOS + Newton since 1993), I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
I wonder......

......If Apple released a new Boot Camp option for the M series iPads.............

able to run ..........

Windows on ARM or MacOS oriPad OS................

as they already have plenty of horsepower and would run any of them smoothly and without issue...................... It would be ideal from a usability/flexibility/portability perspective and very attractive for a huge number of users.........

BUT

One single reason that it will never happen...... M series iPad sales would probably skyrocket and MacBook Air sales would likely tank..........
Except the battery life would be terrible. iPad battery life already lags MacBooks, and MacOS and Windows would eat through the battery more quickly.
 
Not enough, because this is is such BS its as transparent as the new liquid glass interface 😂
You just need more courage to think different. Then you will see the wisdom of metal liquid, er liquid metal?? Metal 3.0? Oh heck, whatever that low contrast monstrosity is called. My poor middle aged eyes can’t read it even with my glasses on. Its like I woke up Monday and all of a sudden my eyes didnt work.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: jonnyb098
It's not bad faith. If you put it in iPad OS, even with a virtualization wrapper, you have to support all of the features iPad OS has baked in, including and especially touch. Which means you have to test and make accommodations for it. What are you going to do, only support a trackpad and mouse with it?
NO! They don't have to support anything at all. Do they support Windows on MacOS??? NO. They let third party apps like Parallels or UTM do that. They just let Hypervisor exist. End of the story. They could do the same. And let full UTM on the store. That's it.
Ok it's not bad faith, but do you get what I mean now?
Do you understand that Apple has to do nothing at all, they have to change nothing at all to MacOS? They may even not officially allow MacOS, many would be ok with just Windows or Linux, again, just like on the Mac.
 
Except the battery life would be terrible. iPad battery life already lags MacBooks, and MacOS and Windows would eat through the battery more quickly.
in a virtual environment when you don't use the virtual machine it takes no resources, when I don't use Windows on my iPad it does not have any impact on battery life. If I use it, it impacts battery life, but if I do nothing intensive I can use it for almost as much as iPadOS, it's not very resouce intensive and it's using only half of the cores. But I don't need Windows most of the time, it's just to make up for the shortcomings of iPadOS, so impact on battery life is negligeable.
And I am sure a lot of people would love to have a desktop OS for the times when iPadOS does not cut it.... not to use it most of the time.

I'll give ouy an example, Word on iPadOS cannot work with RTF files, but one of my clients needs me to make track changes on them and check and edit their track changes. Third party apps destroy the track changes or don't show them. Only a desktop Word allows me to do that. But most other things work fine on the iPad...
 
  • Like
Reactions: tomchr9
NO! They don't have to support anything at all. Do they support Windows on MacOS??? NO. They let third party apps like Parallels or UTM do that. They just let Hypervisor exist. End of the story. They could do the same. And let full UTM on the store. That's it.
Ok it's not bad faith, but do you get what I mean now?
Do you understand that Apple has to do nothing at all, they have to change nothing at all to MacOS? They may even not officially allow MacOS, many would be ok with just Windows or Linux, again, just like on the Mac.
For someone like you who knows exactly their use case and the limitations of it, that’s fine. For the unwashed rando who expects everything to consistently work the same on a platform - even when it’s using another platform inside it - maybe not. You have to plan for that.
 
in a virtual environment when you don't use the virtual machine it takes no resources, when I don't use Windows on my iPad it does not have any impact on battery life. If I use it, it impacts battery life, but if I do nothing intensive I can use it for almost as much as iPadOS, it's not very resouce intensive and it's using only half of the cores. But I don't need Windows most of the time, it's just to make up for the shortcomings of iPadOS, so impact on battery life is negligeable.
And I am sure a lot of people would love to have a desktop OS for the times when iPadOS does not cut it.... not to use it most of the time.

I'll give ouy an example, Word on iPadOS cannot work with RTF files, but one of my clients needs me to make track changes on them and check and edit their track changes. Third party apps destroy the track changes or don't show them. Only a desktop Word allows me to do that. But most other things work fine on the iPad...
Word’s inadequacies are on Microsoft not Apple.
 
NO! They don't have to support anything at all. Do they support Windows on MacOS??? NO. They let third party apps like Parallels or UTM do that. They just let Hypervisor exist. End of the story. They could do the same. And let full UTM on the store. That's it.
Ok it's not bad faith, but do you get what I mean now?
Do you understand that Apple has to do nothing at all, they have to change nothing at all to MacOS? They may even not officially allow MacOS, many would be ok with just Windows or Linux, again, just like on the Mac.
In a virtual environment you are literally running two operating systems at once. Both demand memory and CPU resources just to handle background tasks.
 
The fundamental technical difficulty is bringing Darwin to the iPad, which supports POSIX, open source like hombrew plus Xcode, and that is a BIG leap for iPadOS. I'll admit I'd like to see that and buy it myself, but not only is it a bit of a spork, it's also opening up the iPadOS to malware that only macOS has to endure right now. I'm happy with my tech-adversarial dad having just iPadOS as it is
 
Run MBP exclusively in clamshell mode, with trackpad and split keyboard, both at home and at the office. At this point I cannot even type normally on MBP keyboard, haven't used it in years.

iPad with MacOS would be a godsend - no need to lug MBP around and iPad would is perfectly fine to occasionally use for quick email/whatever.
 
  • Love
Reactions: spac3duck
Run MBP exclusively in clamshell mode, with trackpad and split keyboard, both at home and at the office. At this point I cannot even type normally on MBP keyboard, haven't used it in years.

iPad with MacOS would be a godsend - no need to lug MBP around and iPad would is perfectly fine to occasionally use for quick email/whatever.
This ^.

I hear the concern about touch interfaces across different form factors.

Personally, I’d be happy with using touch optimised OS when moving/commuting/lite tasks (phone and tablet). Then a tablet, when connected to a monitor, enables me to use macOS with a mouse with NO touch input. (Like the clamshell example above).

This example:
1 - Retains touch for iPhone and iPad
2 - Retains macOS as is
3 - Runs either a virtualised (via app) or native install of an OS on the iPad in the event a certain condition is met.

Minimal overhead, minimal changes, but a lot more functionality out of the M series iPads for those that want to use it. (Otherwise it can be a feature that sits there in the background and doesn’t get used eg many people may not use the iPhone mirroring on macOS 15: https://support.apple.com/en-au/120421 )

Edit: macOS 15
 
And, for every concern of product cannibalisation if the iPad were to replace a small section of MacBook Air, you could consider all of the optional accessories Apple could augment, continue or develop further that would likely have much more GP than single large computer items e.g. Monitors, speakers, keyboards, mice (that don’t have a charging slot on the bottom) etc etc
 
You've really drunk the coolaid haven't you.

They're different devices with different focuses on the UI because Apple insists on keeping them that way, it's not inherent.

Explain to me how my iPad shifting into a Mac-style UI when I connect it to a keyboard and trackpad, and returning to traditional touch UI when I undock it, is a bad experience. Apple have essentially admitted that's what it should do, with all their failed attempts to re-invent a windowed UI, they just keep half-arsing it. They've also essentially admitted that touchscreen on a laptop style device is useful, because people like me use the touchscreen on our iPads all the time while they're in their Magic Keyboard, so we know that excuse is nonsense too.

There are other things they'd need to do to really make the iPad Pro live up to its name (user control over application state being the big one), but that's the main UX component of it.
You must have missed my post about how awful the new multi-windowing interface is. Apple made a huge mistake putting this crap interface on the iPad since I much prefer the prior interface. From interviews, Apple put it in to satisfy the tiny, tiny percentage of people sitting in tech bubbles who think the iPad should be a Mac. It shouldn’t. When you have a touch-first device and a mouse-first device, why would any person want them to have the same interface?

Have you ever had a Surface Pro? I used to think like you that it would be awesome to put a desktop OS on a tablet. It was the biggest tech mistake I’d ever made in over 10 years. It was the worst tablet experience I’d ever seen, and I’ve had many Android tablets as well as Apple ones. Because of compromises, the Surface Pro was also a compromised laptop, weaker than any laptop in its same price range.

Bottom line is that Apple shouldn’t have listened to those people who wanted a Mac tablet. They’ve always previously been the company to tell people what they wanted to great success. When they actually do what people ask for, they end up making a terrible product. As I said earlier, if someone took a poll of people at the beginning of the 1900’s how they could improve transportation, they’d ask for a better buggy whip. Ford came out with a car instead.

Drinking the cool-aid doesn’t include trashing Apple’s terrible new interface.
 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: mlayer and tomchr9
Bullcrap. They don't want iPad cannibalizing Mac market and want nice AppStore revenues, is all.
Why wouldn’t they want the iPad to cannibalize the Mac? They cost more. Just compare the costs. An iPad Pro with the same screen size costs more than the MBA alone, never mind the additional cost of the Magic Keyboard. The 13” iPad Air plus Magic Keyboard costs more than a MBA. They also make more money from the iPad Store than they do from the Mac Store. If they want more money, THEY WANT TO CANNIBALIZE MACS WITH IPADS.

These arguments that Apple is afraid of cannibalizing their MacBook line is ridiculous when they’d make more money if the iPad did cannibalize them.

Explain why they brought the new windowing interface to the cheapest possible iPad, the $349 base iPad. If they were afraid of cannibalizing their MBA, why would they enable the feature on the base iPad and the iPad mini? That would be the dumbest decision possible since they’d lose money hand over fist if people replaced their Mac purchasing decision by buying a base iPad. Maybe there was another reason to do so?

The real explanation seems to elude people when it’s an easy answer. They’ve told us why any number of times, but people won’t believe them. Apple sees the iPad and Mac as two completely different and complementary devices that have their own strengths and weaknesses. One is touch-based first while the other is exclusively pointer-based, which makes them completely different platforms. As Craig F said, they are complementary devices with some common functionality. But neither is a replacement for the other. If I leave the house, I take my iPad with me, not my MacBook. Likewise, if I need power, I’ll use my desktop Mac Studio instead of my laptop. You use the proper tool for the proper job. That’s why Apple sells many different product lines: phone, tablet, laptop, desktop. None of them are ever intended to fully replace any of the others. If they were, they’d scrap all of their devices except iPads and just sell those. Or if they’re truly afraid of cannibalizing MacBook sales, why not scrap the iPad entirely and just sell MacBooks? Why bother expending engineering resources on so many different products when they could save a ton of money and just sell one product line?

See how these arguments about cannibalization make no sense? They are simply different products that do different things, but have a few things in common.

People obsess over the fact that some iPads have the same SoC as some Macs and that somehow makes them identical products. That’s nonsense. People don’t take into account battery sizes and thermals and primary input methods. A tiny, thin iPad gets beat by a MacBook Air with its much bigger battery and superior thermals, though neither has a fan. A computer isn’t just an SoC. Nobody wants to replace their iPad with their iPhone because they are so different even though iPhones run the same SoC’s as some iPads. Why would anyone want to replace their Mac with their iPad when they are so different in form factor, battery sizes, thermals, and input methods?

When Apple is telling us why, believe them because it makes the most sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mlayer
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.