Crazy heat on MBP '15

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by MacBH928, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. MacBH928 macrumors 68030

    MacBH928

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    #1
    So I know MBP can't handle too much load but I was surprised when I ran a streaming video from mixer.com the heat hit 212F/100C ... for a streaming video? The other thing was when I ran Chrome it took 40% of CPU activity and naturally fans started working... something you never see using Safari...

    I know I can't push it too much but I was hoping I could run some older games but how "recent" are the games I can run without melting my hardware? I was hoping it would run games up until 2010 at least.

    I don't think there is iGPU solution for the MBP 15. Note I am not looking to run 4K DOOM, but I feel like stuff that was on the PS3 (2006 hardware) should run fine on 2015 hardware. Am I wrong?
     
  2. chabig macrumors 603

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    #2
    Your intuition is wrong. 100C is normal and fine. Don't worry about "pushing" the machine too hard or asking it to handle "too much load". Just use it normally. Nothing will melt. The machine will manage heat just fine, to the point of slowing down or even shutting down. I doubt you will ever see that.
     
  3. _Kiki_, Feb 16, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019

    _Kiki_ macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    you can't generalise, anything above 90C on AMD GPU produce artifacts and can damage the graphics chip, life of CPU will be a lot of shorter during long time usage close to 100C
     
  4. 06tb06 macrumors regular

    06tb06

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    #4
    What game genres do you play? I have a few Steam games for Mac and they play just fine.
     
  5. Cashmonee macrumors 65816

    Cashmonee

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    #5
    Are you using Chrome when you stream? Chrome is not a well behaved app on macOS, so much so that I really do not recommend using it. It eats resources like crazy. Your fans should not be kicking on for a streaming video.

    As for games, which MBP do you have? If it has a dGPU it should be able to run a decent number of games. You may have to turn down settings and resolution, and you probably aren't going to be able to run Tomb Raider or something like that, but older games should be ok. If you have the iGPU (I believe the lowest 2015 had an iGPU), then yeah, you aren't really going to be able to game much.
     
  6. casperes1996 macrumors 68040

    casperes1996

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    #6
    Depending on the codec used video streaming can actually be quite a heavy load. Some video codecs use essentially 0% of your CPU/GPU because there is a dedicated hardware block for it, but others can really kick it hard. And Chrome has always been megadeath incarnate.

    You should be able to play pretty much anything just fine. Including brand new games if you lower the settings. Intel CPUs have a TJunction at 100C which means that's the temperature they're designed to start slowing down at. In other words, it's an officially supported temperature for a normal operational lifespan. At either 105 or 110C depending on chip the computer will go to sleep automatically to preserve hardware longevity, but this will only happen if you're blocking the ventilation on purpose or something. Otherwise the worst you'll experience is the chip slowing down a bit to manage heat.

    I don't know what you mean by this. The MacBook Pro comes with both an iGPU and a dGPU.

    Now you're generalising. AMDs mobile GPUs have higher temperature tolerances than their desktop counterparts. It still depends on the exact chip, but Tonga had a maximum operational temperature of 110C with TJunction at 105C. In fact, for mobile GPUs Nvidia GPUs have lower tolerances.
     
  7. _Kiki_, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    _Kiki_ macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    I like theoretics like you without any real experience, I have iMac 27 2015 Retina with mobile chip AMD Radeon R9 M395 and during the gaming using Windows system the GPU is going over 90C and I have artifacts, so there is a potential to damage the graphics chip, so I did setup software to fan control to give some more rpm to fan, now I have GPU cooler and safer, I provided real example, you don't have any

    also using CPU or GPU with high temperature (like 90C+) will cause shortening of lifespan
     
  8. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #8
    Actually it isn't fine, so much so, Intel and others build in protection logic to throttle the CPU at 100c to prevent damage. When I owned the 2018 MBP, it never hit a 100c when I watched a video.
     
  9. AndyMacAndMic, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    AndyMacAndMic macrumors 6502

    AndyMacAndMic

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    #9
    100C is the boiling point of water. Also it is the maximum operating temperature before most CPU's get damaged/fried. Seems not fine at all to me. 100C for longer periods of time considerably shortens the lifespan of the CPU/Computer. That's why (as @maflynn stated before me) Intel has a safety throttle built in. An adequately cooled computer should (even when taxed heavily) never exceed 90C, preferably 80C.
     
  10. leman macrumors G3

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    #10
    If the manufacturer says that 100C is safe and gives you full warranty fir running the CPU at 100C, then I’d assume it’s indeed safe. Unless you have better knowledge on these issues than Intel does.

    It’s a different problem that one shouldnt see such temperatures when streaming video. Unless you are using some weird codec that has to do decoding in a very inefficient way.
     
  11. AndyMacAndMic, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    AndyMacAndMic macrumors 6502

    AndyMacAndMic

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    #11
    Intel does not say it is safe. It claims it is the maximum operating temperature. Subtle difference.

    Furthermore I do not have better knowledge than Intel does. It is just common knowledge that operating a CPU on maximum temperature for longer periods of time shortens the life span.

    I certainly would worry if I see a CPU temperature on my computer of 100C a lot. It indicates the computer is not cooled properly and has to fall back on the built in Intel safety measures. It normally should not come that far.
     
  12. Khaleal macrumors member

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    #12
    If you're talking about a 2015 15" MacBook Pro, then I'd highly suggest that you open it, give it a good cleaning, and replace the thermal paste. That would do wonders to older MacBook Pros
     
  13. leman macrumors G3

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    #13
    Common knowledge in how far? Sure, there is the electromigration. But what does it mean in reality? That the expected chip lifetime goes down from 50 years to 10 years? Who cares about that? Your computer will break down of unrelated issues or get replaced because of its age long before the detrimental effects of heat will make an impact.

    And we can turn your semantics around just as easily. Sure, they don’t say that 100C is safe. Neither do they say that 50C is safe. They provide an operating range of temperatures under which their components are tested and guaranteed to operate normally and safely. 100C has been an upper boundary of that range for quite a while. You could probably push the chip beyond without much detrimental effect it if you somehow disabled the safety limiter. At any rate, Apple had been designing their cooling system to take advantage of the full operating range and there have been no Macs suddenly dying just because you decided to encode some videos or run probabilistic simulations on them.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 17, 2019 ---
    P.S. to add to this, much of the bro-science surrounding temperatures comes from the overclocking community. Where a) CPUs have heat-spreaders, so temperature ranges are different and b) CPUs indeed die quicker since people overvolt them.
     
  14. Thysanoptera, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    Thysanoptera macrumors 6502

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    #14
    Problem is, the warranty is way shorter than the amount of time I would like to use the device.

    But, Apple was always playing with Tj limits, and in case of Intel chips there were no problems. There were some with Nvidia though. What I'm worried is that I think Apple is removing the temperature protection for short periods of time, if you run Cinebench you'll notice the temperature and power do not correlate any more when the temps hit initially 100C and flat line at this level. Looks like temperature sensor saturation while the actual is way higher, and this may kill the chip eventually, or destroy BGA joints after some number of cycles.

    EDIT - I’m talking about 8th gen obviously, you couldn’t run earlier generations at almost twice the TDP.
     
  15. AndyMacAndMic, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    AndyMacAndMic macrumors 6502

    AndyMacAndMic

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    #15
    Now you are turning this into a semantics game and I am not going to play along.

    You claimed that Intel says it is safe. I just simply stated they did not.

    If you don't worry about the max temp of 100C, be my guest. It is your computer and your money after all. I am surprised that your are making such a big point about nothing.

    But if you will excuse me, I have better things to do than indulging myself into some meaningless word game. So yes keep your computer operating at max temperature and don't worry be happy ;)
     
  16. MacBH928 thread starter macrumors 68030

    MacBH928

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    #16
    This is the question, which games should I expect to play fine? These are usually figured out in years because the more advanced the years the more hardware it requires. For example I think I will be able to run Doom 3 ('04) but not DOOM (2016). My question is where is the comfortable space for my MBP which has iGPU. 2015.

    No I am not using Chrome, using Safari to watch the stream. I have the iGPU, but I expect the iGPU to be able to play games up until 2010 at least fine.

    I tried streaming from Twitch and heat was around 60-75C . So the codec might be the answer...who knows...
    I never have this problem watching YouTube.

    Sorry I meant there is no eGPU solution for MBP 2015, my MBP has no dedicated GPU.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 17, 2019 ---
    I am not sure why these laptops are considered Pro's at all. I have an older macbook from late 2000s(not PRO) it would hit 90C easy for anything like converting videos or even maybe ripping CDs back in the day IIRC. So is this current 2015 model, streaming video will hit 100C...

    I don't see how these are PROs...with their low fans, tight enclosure, and underpowered CPUs they might as will lit up on fire one day...
     
  17. Eason85 macrumors regular

    Eason85

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    #17
    No, it is not normal and fine. No. No no no. 100C is the maximum temperature the intel chips are rated for, and if you are hitting 100C (I have never seen this, not in 15 years) it means that you are seeing hardware-induced throttling happening so the chip doesn't fry itself. Again, no. I have no idea where you got this stuff.

    leman is clearly a smart guy, which makes it more depressing when you see someone intelligent being willfully deceptive.
     
  18. casperes1996 macrumors 68040

    casperes1996

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    #18
    I have an iMac 5K with an R9 M295X. I have more than enough experience with heat. I have had it hit 110C on me a few times causing my computer to go to sleep or shut down on its own. Typically I run it at 105C with 0 issues whatsoever though. I have had to go to higher fan speeds than was initially max to keep it from hitting 110C though. That is, my fan now runs at 3600RPM when I push the GPU, as opposed to the 2700RPM that used to be the maximum, and which MacsFanControl, SMC Fan Control, etc. still reports as maximum, unless forced to see the real maximum of 3600RPM.
    My old 2011 MBP had the faulty AMD chips that would have their flip chip solder die as well.

    But with that experience, I have never seen artifacting, even at the 105C my card is typically at. I've editted video in Final Cut, played many games in Boot Camp, done GPU compute tasks to do with my computer science studies and no incorrect behaviour, aside from at times having reached the 110 shut-down point.

    My current MacBook Pro on the other hand has zero heat issues, and since this thread discusses the CPU, having run my CPU at near 100C for many, many, many hours on all of my Macs; 0 issues so far. Going far back mind you. I don't know when I first started keeping an eye on these things, but I've been doing similar tasks to what I do now on my computers basically since the G5 - Maybe little bit on the G4 iMac as well, though that was probably a hell of a lot lighter.
     
  19. chabig macrumors 603

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    #19
    I think it's you who is playing with semantics, by making the unsupportable implication that Intel's non-use of the word "safe" in fact means that it is not.
     
  20. AndyMacAndMic, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    AndyMacAndMic macrumors 6502

    AndyMacAndMic

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    #20
    If Intel builds a protection mechanism in their CPU that kicks in at 100C, do you really think that the word 'safe' is applicable here?
    No, it is a fallback to protect the CPU from overheating/getting damaged. No complicated semantics needed here: 100C is hot enough for the CPU to start the safety mechanism because 101C is to hot. This safety mechanism aggressively throttles the CPU down or shuts it off completely if necessary. Not a 'safe' temperature at all.

    Also read the other posts in this thread. There are other people claiming you are wrong and rightfully so. You should be worried more about the real problem here, than proving you are right and how the word 'safe' should be used or not.
     
  21. SDColorado Contributor

    SDColorado

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    #21
    This thread has been interesting. I really never paid much attention to what the 100c TJ max temp meant before reading through some of this.

    I am sure people are probably tired or car analogies, but it kind of strikes me that the TJ Max temp is a bit like the max temp pressure rating on a radiator cap, which typically corresponds to 125c. Once that pressure is reached, it will result in overpressure and coolant release through the cap. While that may be "safe" for a short term, I can't imagine anyone would want to allow their car to operate at those temps for extended periods and that it might take its toll vs the typical operating temp of your car, which might be 100c.

    I ask this more as a question in trying to get a better understanding of it myself, but I can't imagine ever running at the maximum allowable range for extended periods being a good idea.

    One of the MacBook Pro's I returned had an issue where it was frequently and randomly bouncing off 100c. My current MBP has never seen 100c.
     
  22. AndyMacAndMic macrumors 6502

    AndyMacAndMic

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    #22
    In this case I think your car analogy makes perfect sense. Intel also talks about 'average (or operating) temperatures' and 'maximum temperatures' meaning the latter is only sustainable for a short period of time.
     
  23. SDColorado Contributor

    SDColorado

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    #23
    While I realize the overpressure with a radiator cap isn't exactly "throttling," it is a safety mechanism that is there to protect the system from damages due to reaching that temperature. Which is why the analogy seemed to have some similarities. I just can't imagine it is a good idea to spend much time at max.

    This techguided.com thread under the TJ Max section made sense to me. But again, I don't claim to know much about this.
     
  24. AndyMacAndMic, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019

    AndyMacAndMic macrumors 6502

    AndyMacAndMic

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    #24
    I agree.
    Intel's safety mechanism is meant as a last resort. A computer manufacturer is supposed to design the cooling system in such a way that it (Intel's failsafe) never has to kick in.

    Edit:
    BTW nice link. This link certainly shows that 100C is damaging/worrying. It seems that a computer already can have stability problems below that.
     
  25. leman macrumors G3

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    #25
    Forgive me, but where am I being deceptive? Can you point me to some studies or evidence that shows that running CPUs at this temperature will reduce its lifetime below a useful value? Al we've had so far in this thread is "everybody knows" arguments with absolutely no references or scientific argumentation.

    The fact is: I don't know either. However, I am an IT professional who had over a hundred of computers in his care, most of them laptops used in a scientific environment where people routinely run hour or even day-long simulations that will push the system to its thermal limits. I don't think that I have observed a single CPU failure in all this time. And the little I know about microelectronics tells me that for the lifespans that normal users are conserved about, temperature is an absolute non-issue. Your machine will fail or get replaced long before temperature-induced electromigration will become a factor (and yes, there is also the thermal expansion stress but its not like there is anything you can do about it).

    And the only relevant study/infopaper on the topic I know is this Texas Instruments document (http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprabx4a/sprabx4a.pdf) where they say that their processors are expected to run 10 years when operated at 105C — we are taking about 24/7/365 operation! Sure, its much smaller devices and its a different process, so we don't really know how this translates to modern behemoths from Intel or AMD but it gives you a value to think about. At any rate, its a recommended read for anyone interested on the topic.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 18, 2019 ---
    ALL 15" MBPs produced in last 6+ years will reach 100C when doing intense work, because that is how they are designed to operate. It's normal and there eis nothing wrong with it. The machine is built to keep the CPU operating at 100C when it draws 45W of power. It's that simple. And if you current MBP never saw this temps it simply means you never did anything remotely demanding with it.

    And what makes you think that the failsafe kicks in at any time? I don't know how Intel calculates turbo boost exactly (they have formulas in their public documentation but I never looked at it in detail), but its a function of current temperature and power draw. The way MBP works is that it keeps the CPU at 100C when it reaches its thermal design power. In other terms, it's where the balance point is reached. The cooling system dissipates exactly the heat produced by the CPU and the CPU stays at the same performance level. There is no failsafe shutdowns or radical throttling occurring (you'd notice that since the frequency would radically drop — the early power management bug with the 2018 MBP is a great example for this scenario).
    --- Post Merged, Feb 18, 2019 ---
    The article overall is a good overview for beginner overclockers and computer enthusiast but the Tjunction section is all over the place. First he says "So, ultimately, if your processor is running close to its maximum allowed operating temperature, it is fine for the time being.". Which I agree with. Then he says "However, if your processor is consistently operating near its maximum operating temperature while under load, that could be a sign that something is wrong.". I also agree with this, but... what does this even mean? Sure, getting Tjunction Max temperatures when your CPU is idling is certainly a problem. Not when its under full load though (which is the only situation where you should see this temps).

    At the same time he write "[its fine...] unless it runs at a level close to its TJ Max for extended periods of time". Why? Where did he get that from? Where does Intel documentation state this? All of this is completely subjective and not based of any kind of evidence. So is it ok or is it not? And what does prolonged periods of time mean in the first place?
    --- Post Merged, Feb 18, 2019 ---
    The power flat lines too though. And it flat-lines exactly at or around the chips TDP, which makes perfect sense. The chip simply stops boosting further and an equilibrium is reached. I don't see any evidence for sensor saturation, but maybe I didn't completely understand what you mean.

    Oh you could but you had to find the way around Intel's clock limiter :) Overclockers have been doing this stuff on unlocked CPUs for ages. And Coffee Lake is almost an unlocked CPU since Intel put the limits much higher then on previous generations...
     

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