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Who claims they made the App Store before there was an AppStore?

What apps were there before there was a dev kit to create apps?
Surely the only iPhone that existed were Apple ones…

Do people still jailbrake? Really? What percent bother?
Lol are you serious rn? Go look up the history of iOS jailbreaking, people made apps before there was an App Store. Installer was the first app store, Cydia was second and only then came the App Store.

I still jailbreak. It's the one thing my iOS devices are missing. I like filesystem access, messing with apps, having a mobile terminal and lots of other things. I want my phone to be a portable computer.
 
Ah yes because developers totally force you to sideload on Android.

Why would devs make their own store for just Android? They are just waiting for Apple to be forced to allow alt-stores to then build their own "mobile" stores. Pretty basic concept.
 
And you knew all that before you bought the iPhone…

If you wanted these abilities, why didn’t you just buy some Android device?
Did you bother to read the comment you replied to? I'm not sacrificing the good UX, constant updates and the ecosystem to gain freedom. You gain one thing and lose everything else.

iOS with freedom > iOS >>> Android
 
Why would devs make their own store for just Android? They are just waiting for Apple to be forced to allow alt-stores to then build their own "mobile" stores. Pretty basic concept.
That's not how it works. It's not a store if it only has one app. A store is a product a third party builds for others to sell things in it. There already exist alternative stores on Android. Developers can choose to use those stores or distribute their app directly in apk form. They do neither of those things even though it would take no effort. The answer is simple, a big company would lose the users' trust if they didn't go through the official channel. Alternative app stores exist for small apps not allowed in the proper channels.
 
You want to own your hardware and install anything you like?

Apple should let you… but then set a big flag so you don’t get software updates from them anymore. Do what you want but fend for yourselves from then on. There’s choice for you. Happy?
 
You gain one thing and lose everything else.

What a joke, why not at least try to debate in good faith.

Alt-stores (and alt-payment processors) will force Apple users to lose:
  • One stop shop for app research
  • Privacy labels
  • Centralized updates
  • One stop shop for payments
  • One stop shop for returns/refunds
 
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Oh so you want all the good stuff Apple does but don’t want to play by their rules?

You sound like Epic…
Yes, my device, my rules. Epic is 100% right.

If Apple won't bother to change iOS to add freedom, they could at least not actively block the ability to install your own OS (or modified iOS). The hardware which the user fully owns after purchase is locked down too.
 
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You want to own your hardware and install anything you like?

Apple should let you… but then set a big flag so you don’t get software updates from them anymore. Do what you want but fend for yourselves from then on. There’s choice for you. Happy?
But Apple doesn't let you. And if you fully own the hardware then whatever restrictions they put, I can bypass.
 
What a joke, why not at least try to debate in good faith.

Alt-stores (and alt-payment processors) will force Apple users to lose:
  • One stop shop for app research
  • Privacy labels
  • Centralized updates
  • One stop shop for payments
  • One stop shop for returns/refunds
Nobody will be forced to use sideloading. Nobody is forced to use it on Android, it wouldn't be any different on iOS. Sideloading would only be used by small companies or apps that aren't allowed on the official channels (e.g. emulators, torrenting apps), which is a minority. Even though apps like Facebook would totally want to ruin your privacy, the moment they force users to install their app outside the official channels they would raise a major red flag and lose a significant number of users. So there's nothing to gain for them.
 
WHAT?!?!

That is literally how just about every Mac or PC app works. Want Malwarebytes, go to their site or "store", want Coconut Battery app go to their store, Want Acrobat Reader, go to the Adobe site.

You are not debating in good faith.
It's not a store, it's direct distribution. It doesn't require them to create an entirely new infrastructure to sell their app. All they do is just upload the package to their website and put a download link.
 
It's not a store, it's direct distribution. It doesn't require them to create an entirely new infrastructure to sell their app. All they do is just upload the package to their website and put a download link.

Consumers still need to create an account, still need to give out payment information, etc. it is a store for 1 item from a consumer standpoint. Today, consumers don't need to do that, 1 account, 1 payment processor, easy peasy! Some of us bought into that philosophy, others bought in knowing it wasn't what they really want and want it changed. Why not go complain to Android to make their stuff more like Apple instead of complaining over here that we need to change?
 
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Consumers still need to create an account, still need to give out payment information, etc. it is a store for 1 item from a consumer standpoint.
I agree but I don't see the relevance of the consumer standpoint, I think you're forgetting your first argument. I said "companies won't force users to sideload on iOS just like they don't on Android", you said "they don't force on it Android because why would they spend effort building a store just for one platform" and I explained how they wouldn't need to create an entire infrastructure like the App Store, all they need is to upload the app on their website and put a download link.

If Facebook could migrate all Android users to their own store with their own privacy rules they would do it, they don't because they know they'll cause confusion and make themselves even less trusted if they did that. So I don't think any big company is going to go through the trouble of forcing people to sideload. Sideloading exists for a minority of geeky users and affects no one else.
 
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So apple is stifling App Store innovation? They certainly aren’t stifling smartphone innovation.

That's up to courts to decide but the issue here is with the operating system dominance and potential anticompetitive behavior related to the OS, OS access, etc. which can include app stores, sideloading, etc.
 
Yes, Apple controls Apple’s App Store like “any company” controls “any company’s” “any product”. Regardless of market share.

Yes, and if they dominate a market (like Apple does in mobile OS) it can create antitrust issues for their activities related to that market.



McDonald’s DOES have over 40% of the fast food market, though. I guess 40% is not enough in the “arbitrarily hand over control of a company’s product to the government” market. :)

McDonald's in the U.S. may have 40% of the franchise fast food market but not 40% of the total fast food market including independent (non-franchise) operations. When you count all types of fast food restaurants, I believe McDonald's share is a fair amount less than 40%. However, even 40% typically isn't enough to be declared a monopoly or having monopoly power.



If by “in some ways” that means that it’s taking place in a court. However, as the issue was not with their market share of the Microsoft’s Excel market (100%) or their market share of the Microsoft Windows market (also 100%), instead being about their marketshare of, as you say, the desktop OS market and the browser market, it’s nothing like the discussions of Apple’s undue control of Apple’s App Store. There’s not even a comparison as to size of marketshare because Apple is 55% THIS year. Last year 53%, the year before that 47%. Microsoft at the time was on 90% of all desktops. (Oh, and for completeness, Microsoft was on 100% of the systems that Microsoft was installed on, but that, again, wasn’t the problem).

These issues would not be about an "Excel" market or a "Safari" market, it would be about a spreadsheet software market or browser market and then it would have to be shown that the company is engaging in anticompetitive behavior in the particular market.

In the case of U.S. mobile OS, there are basically only two players (iOS and Android) with iOS having around 55% to 60% of the market right now. If Apple or Google were determined to be engaging in anticompetitive behavior related to their OS, it would be an antitrust violation.
 
Yes, and if they dominate a market (like Apple does in mobile OS)
I personally don't see how Apple dominating the mobile OS market is relevant. They dominate 100% of the iOS app market. I'm not saying they shouldn't control the App Store like the other comment is claiming we're claiming, we want alternatives to the App Store *on iOS*. Apple can do whatever they want with the App Store as long as we can build our own iOS app store (which we can't)
 
1) Dominating a market is not a monopoly. There are other choices that work just fine for 45% of the US population, and more worldwide.

From a legal standpoint it can. Just because there is another mobile OS is not necessarily enough. There were other desktop operating systems available in the 1990s yet Microsoft was declared a monopoly.



2) Apple got to that market share from 0% by offering something different, competing with established players

So? Many monopolies start from 0%.



3) The "something different" defining iPhones is the walled garden iOS ecosystem, which has never allowed sideloading.

So? That doesn't mean it can't be viewed as anticompetitive and stifling competition, innovation, etc. especially as iOS has reached 55% to 60% of the U.S. mobile OS market.



4) iOS is Apple's own app. You're saying Apple have to modify iOS to allow alternative app stores. How is that fundamentally different to saying they have to modify Pages or Safari?

Potentially if it is determined that Apple is violating antitrust laws and regulations. This would also be true for other companies in a similar position.

iOS is a dominant mobile operating system, basically one of just two in the U.S., and has the larger (55% to 60%) share of the market which can be viewed as "unfairly" wielding too much power and control in activities related to that market.



5) jailbreaking iOS violates DMCA, but I don't think there's anything stopping anyone from developing their own OS from the ground up to run an iPhone.

The issue here would be that an iPhone can't legally be sold as brand new with an alternative OS, App Store, etc.
 
The issue here would be that an iPhone can't legally be sold as brand new with an alternative OS, App Store, etc.
The issue is it's impossible to install an alternative OS because iOS devices are locked down on the hardware level. I'd be more than happy if I could install a modded OS even if it required me to do it manually.
 
I personally don't see how Apple dominating the mobile OS market is relevant. They dominate 100% of the iOS app market. I'm not saying they shouldn't control the App Store like the other comment is claiming we're claiming, we want alternatives to the App Store *on iOS*. Apple can do whatever they want with the App Store as long as we can build our own iOS app store (which we can't)

It's essentially just as relevant as it was in the 1990s regarding Microsoft dominating the desktop OS market. Apple's mobile OS dominance can be viewed as having excess control and power in that market which means they have excess control and power in the sale/offering of apps in that market.

Yes, Apple can do what they want with their own App Store. The issue being raised here is with them not allowing alternative app stores in a market (mobile OS) they have a dominant position in.
 
It's essentially just as relevant as it was in the 1990s regarding Microsoft dominating the desktop OS market. Apple's mobile OS dominance can be viewed as having excess control and power in that market which means they have excess control and power in the sale/offering of apps in that market.

Yes, Apple can do what they want with their own App Store. The issue being raised here is with them not allowing alternative app stores in a market (mobile OS) they have a dominant position in.
I would argue that this would be an issue even if Apple had no dominance on the mobile OS market. They still have 100% dominance on the iOS app market.
 
No customer will be harmed. If you want the feature you use it, if you don't you don't use it. Companies won't force you to use it any more than they do on Android.

I won't find happines on Android, it's literally way worse even though it has the one thing iOS lacks. "Go to Android" is the dumbest argument ever people should stop using.

Of course customers will be harmed. Especially those who decide to sideload and later find out their personal information/data/security has been compromised and/or they're the victims of fraud.

"Go to Android" is the dumbest argument ever people should stop using."

Nope. That's what being an adult is about. As adults (I assume you're one) we have choices to evaluate and make, and with that, compromises, in determining which products best meet our needs. There is no perfect device that meets 100.0% of one's needs/requirements with 0.0% compromises. Same with cars, toasters, computers, purchasing a home, etc.

If an orange phone best meets your needs/requirements, simply find a manufacturer that offers an orange phone for sale. Whining at Sony because they don't offer an orange phone and demanding they make one because it will make you happy, for example, is childish.

If being able to sideload apps is important to you, simply purchase a phone that doesn't restrict side loading and find happiness. Apple has chosen, for a variety of excellent reasons (harm to customers and harm to Apple), not to allow that. Just as Sony, also for excellent reasons, has decided not to offer an orange phone.

You will never find the 100.0% perfect phone. Demanding that a company make one just to make you happy isn't reasonable considering the harm that would occur to others and Apple. Sometimes you can't always get what you want.
 
Especially those who decide to sideload and later find out their personal information/data has been compromised and/or they're the victims of fraud.
That's their problem. They should know what they're doing.

There is no perfect device that meets 100.0% of one's needs/requirements with 0.0% compromises

There can be if only we would be allowed to modify devices we *own*

Demanding that a company make one just to make you happy isn't reasonable considering the harm that would occur to others and Apple.

See the thing is I am not demanding Apple to add a feature that'll make me happy. I am demanding Apple to stop from actively trying to prevent me from doing it myself.

And technically, Apple has 100% dominance over the iOS app market which they shouldn't have. It should be my right by law to make my own iOS app store.
 
The current situation with the Mac disproves this - and the Mac app store was introduced into an environment where everybody was already used to "sideloading".
Actually, the Mac App Store, while somewhat popular, still hasn’t really become the central method of application deployment. Same goes with the Microsoft Store on Windows. Generally speaking, most people (especially the people open to spending money on additional software) are just as likely to do the Mac equivalent of sideloading as anything else, especially if you consider that the first task most people do with a brand new computer is, unfortunately, to download Chrome (or perhaps Firefox).
 
Actually, the Mac App Store, while somewhat popular, still hasn’t really become the central method of application deployment. Same goes with the Microsoft Store on Windows. Generally speaking, most people (especially the people open to spending money on additional software) are just as likely to do the Mac equivalent of sideloading as anything else, especially if you consider that the first task most people do with a brand new computer is, unfortunately, to download Chrome (or perhaps Firefox).
People are used to doing it that way on computers. On Android people barely sideload
 
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