Dangerous minds / Thunderbolt PCIe card Upgrade for MP 5.1 ?

[AlexMaximus]

Hi folks,

The title says it all. I wanted to ask someone with an advanced mac driver experience if this theory could be done?

1. Check out the PCI upgrade card from Sonnet for Thunderbolt 3 functionality:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Sonnet-TBL3...388188?hash=item46803ffe1c:g:iZ8AAOSwb2JblP74

(its in german, but you should find the US version as well)

2. Assuming PCI standards are real standards, the PCIe card should fit into a Mac Pro 5.1 slot just fine.

3. Copy existing Apple driver for Thunderbolt 1/2/3 from an iMac

4. Use Apple iMac driver package with slight modification for Mac Pro 5.1

5. Would this be feasible, or am I delusional here?

6. If so, (with a minor effort) - Could we start a small MRumors fundraising to develop driver package for 5.1 ??



I thought, this question would be worth contemplating ..

 

[chrfr]

2. Assuming PCI standards are real standards, the PCIe card should fit into a Mac Pro 5.1 slot just fine.

3. Copy existing Apple driver for Thunderbolt 1/2/3 from an iMac.

The chipset in the computer needs to support Thunderbolt for something like this to work. The Mac Pro does not.

 

[AlexMaximus]

The chipset in the computer needs to support Thunderbolt for something like this to work. The Mac Pro does not.

Yes, I know this vatican myth. You are telling me that the holy grail chip of thunderbolt sits on the el cheapo pcie china backplane, inside of the Echo Express III-D box and not on the card? I absolutely don't believe that. This chip must be on the upgrade card, hence there should be a way to use it. The PCI backplane is not special, the music plays on the upgrade card. Anyone else here??

 

[bookemdano]

Myth? Go ahead and buy it and let us know how it goes.

 

[saulinpa]

The cards that add TB to a motherboard have an extra cable that connects to a connector on the motherboard. So TB needs more than the PCIe bus can provide.

 

[handheldgames]

Beyond the missing GPIO port/interface on the logic board, the EFI firmware would also need to initialize the hardware for the OS.

AFAIK... No one has been able to add thunderbolt to an Intel x58 based system. Mac, PC or otherwise. Although I could be wrong.

 

[SneakyTLoD]

Hmm...... I shouldn't drink and get on forums. Sorry for being rude.

 

[deconstruct60]

Hi folks,

The title says it all. I wanted to ask someone with an advanced mac driver experience if this theory could be done?

1. Check out the PCI upgrade card from Sonnet for Thunderbolt 3 functionality:
...
(its in german, but you should find the US version as well)

Not sure why pointing folks off to Germany ( except for page view click bait).

"... Sonnet designed Echo Express Thunderbolt 2-to-PCIe card expansion systems (and select Thunderbolt 2 adapters) to be easily upgraded to 40Gbps Thunderbolt 3(1). Simply replace the existing Thunderbolt interface board with the upgrade board, and then your chassis will instantly support higher performance, and connect to your Thunderbolt 3-equipped computer(2) without needing an adapter. .."
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt3-upgrade-cards.html

It is abundantly plain that these cards are solely for Sonnets own expansion boxes. They don't necessarily work in others

2. Assuming PCI standards are real standards, the PCIe card should fit into a Mac Pro 5.1 slot just fine.

Thunderbolt isn't just an arbitrary veneer placed on top of PCI-e.

The standard Thunderbolt host computer interface needs three inputs (GPIO, DisplayPort, and PCI-e ). End points ( expansion boxes are different.

Host versus endpoint diagram.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thunderbolt-performance-z77a-gd80,3205-4.html

Thunderbolt version 3 adds some USB integration overhead but the baseline of Thunderbolt above is still the same. The "NHI" ( native host interface) takes a GPIO connection from the motherboard. The firmware of the host system needs to be able to integrate with that interface ( it isn't OS level drivers isssue). The system has to designed from the beginning to host Thunderbolt. It isn't a "slap on after you're done" design issue.

Endpoints/peripherals are not hosts (that don't initialize the bus) . They are simpler to connect which is primarily what makes what Sonnet is doing viable. For a Mac Pro it isn't.

So far, the Thunderbolt controller used in hosts has been the same chip used in endpoints. However, those are two different modes. Can't just point to a TB controller chip being on a card and say it is viable as a host version at all.

Going forward some vendor that isn't Intel might make an endpoint only version . So example a USB or SATA or x4 PCI-e NVMe combo controller with Thunderbolt to make it easier to create a more inexpensive "couple chip solution" external device. So far that hasn't happened. Even it does that will not help out pre-2010 x86 systems get Thunderbolt.

Standard PCI-e slots is not the 100% universal panacea that more than few folks will try to sales pitch.

 

[AlexMaximus]

Thank you very much for your detailed answer! So then this settles it. Its not a myth. This is very sad to say the least.
It would have been nice to escape this locked in situation for the MP 5.1 crowd. My original thought on this was to check how
complicated / possible a thunderbolt home-brew expansion for the 5.1 crowd would be. I guess only a company like Amfeltec could pull something like this off. Thanks again to all of you! I guess it was a nice pipe dream.

 

[Pressure]

Well, at least you have actual PCIe slots.

 

[orph]

or a mac min if you need thunderbolt for cheep

 

[verdejt]

I just looked the specs up on the card and yes it's a USB C connector but it does not support full Thunderbolt connectivity. It's mainly allowing you to get Thunderbolt type speeds out of your USB devices such as drives and other peripherals. It doesn't support device booting. So basically it's a USB 3 2.x add-on card allowing transfer speeds of about 950mb/s I think it what it said.
Probably not a bad upgrade option to get given the fact that USB-C is becoming the standard port.

 

[rawweb]

Reference this thread: testing TB3 AIC with MP 5,1

 

[luxychris]

hey there! i wanted to bring this back up. i know everyone is so tired of hearing about connecting thunderbolt devices to a mac pro 5,1. simply can't be done. at the same time, we all know that a mac mini is a cheap way to get thunderbolt. IS THERE ANY WAY (workaround?) that i can use the mac mini as a "converter" (for lack of a better term) to connect a thunderbolt device to my mac pro 5,1? can i somehow tie the mac mini into my mac pro 5,1 with a different connection to "share" the thunderbolt device? would anything be fast enough, lets say, for me to access video files on a thunderbolt 2/3 raid with my mac pro 5,1? even a super fast ethernet or eSATA? any other outside-of-the-box ideas? i have a monster of a mac pro and i hate that i can't use this monster of a raid that i purchased awhile back. cheers, chris

 

[rawweb]

hey there! i wanted to bring this back up. i know everyone is so tired of hearing about connecting thunderbolt devices to a mac pro 5,1. simply can't be done. at the same time, we all know that a mac mini is a cheap way to get thunderbolt. IS THERE ANY WAY (workaround?) that i can use the mac mini as a "converter" (for lack of a better term) to connect a thunderbolt device to my mac pro 5,1? can i somehow tie the mac mini into my mac pro 5,1 with a different connection to "share" the thunderbolt device? would anything be fast enough, lets say, for me to access video files on a thunderbolt 2/3 raid with my mac pro 5,1? even a super fast ethernet or eSATA? any other outside-of-the-box ideas? i have a monster of a mac pro and i hate that i can't use this monster of a raid that i purchased awhile back. cheers, chris

It can be done. Thunderbolt 3 is working with a cMP 5,1. Did you read through the multiple threads posted here or the one I linked a post above? It requires some working around, booting to Windows and then a warm boot to MacOS, but it does work. I'm driving a LG UltraFine 5k TB3 display and a OWC Thunderbay 4 right now.

 

[thornslack]

Just do esata and be done with it. Who needs TB performance over 6 gbs anyhow... almost no one

 

[IOMstudio]

Hi, I have a Question; does anybody know if it's strictly necessary to have Bootcamp working to make the Titan Ridge work?, I mean I installed Windows 10 on a second hard drive (spinning drive) and I know I have to do a cold boot into Windows first, but I'm not being able make it work! I have a 2010 MP 5,1 modified running Mojave!, any thoughts? Also does anybody knows if the software Parallels could help with the cold botting warm booting situation?

 

[joevt]

Hi, I have a Question; does anybody know if it's strictly necessary to have Bootcamp working to make the Titan Ridge work?, I mean I installed Windows 10 on a second hard drive (spinning drive) and I know I have to do a cold boot into Windows first, but I'm not being able make it work! I have a 2010 MP 5,1 modified running Mojave!, any thoughts? Also does anybody knows if the software Parallels could help with the cold botting warm booting situation?

Parallels does not virtualize PCIe slots. You would need to try a VM in Linux to do that.

You don't need Windows to use USB functionality of the Thunderbolt add-in card (USB 3.1 Gen 2, 10 Gbps) or DisplayPort conversion for Thunderbolt displays.

But you do need Windows to get Thunderbolt functionality (PCIe tunneling) working in macOS.

For more info, or further questions, go to https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/testing-tb3-aic-with-mp-5-1.2143042/

 

[Coyote2006]

It can be done. Thunderbolt 3 is working with a cMP 5,1. Did you read through the multiple threads posted here or the one I linked a post above? It requires some working around, booting to Windows and then a warm boot to MacOS, but it does work. I'm driving a LG UltraFine 5k TB3 display and a OWC Thunderbay 4 right now.

That's cool. What GPU are you using to run the LG?