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Defrauded of $1600 Powermac G5
- Thread starter smharmon
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slipper said:
It wasn't a check, and i got the money, and spent it on a new powerbook... now Paypal wants it back. I waited a week for the money to clear into the bank, and shipped when it did. They then did a chargeback on me... and now want their money...
I dont see how you rcredit rating could be more important than 1600$.
Banks never reject mortage, they may want to up to interest rate but even then, you can talk to them, negociate and get a normal rate.
The only situation where your credit would be very important is if you live on credit, which is a very very very bad thing (tm). Or if you are a home worker / have a business and use credit a lot.
If your cedit rating is so important, maybe it means that you use it too much! We currently live in a credit society, get now pay later.
Also, you can always call the credit agency and have your side of the story added to the files so anyone who read it would see your version.
As we all said, call the police, if you have all your proof, they will be happy to get that mofo in jail.
I was thinking about registering to paypal, I think your story totaly changed my mind.
Banks never reject mortage, they may want to up to interest rate but even then, you can talk to them, negociate and get a normal rate.
The only situation where your credit would be very important is if you live on credit, which is a very very very bad thing (tm). Or if you are a home worker / have a business and use credit a lot.
If your cedit rating is so important, maybe it means that you use it too much! We currently live in a credit society, get now pay later.
Also, you can always call the credit agency and have your side of the story added to the files so anyone who read it would see your version.
As we all said, call the police, if you have all your proof, they will be happy to get that mofo in jail.
I was thinking about registering to paypal, I think your story totaly changed my mind.
You "may" have to let the PayPal charge go a little sour to prove to a court that you have to really pay them back in order to clear your credit, because the buyer never paid PayPal in the first place.
Then start a civil case (in addition to any criminal case you file) against the guy in small claims court, and pay the money to have him served by a pro in the city he lives (you want to make sure the case isn't dropped due to failure to serve), then take all the stuff to the small claims judge and see if he shows up.
Then start a civil case (in addition to any criminal case you file) against the guy in small claims court, and pay the money to have him served by a pro in the city he lives (you want to make sure the case isn't dropped due to failure to serve), then take all the stuff to the small claims judge and see if he shows up.
Mantat said:
well to exaplain why crietid is so imporanted is will effect you very heavy if you have bad crieted. short term the 1600 buck is good but long term you get a black market on you record for I think 5 years. Problem is that effedts getting loans,insureces or signing any contract (example cell phones.) Oh you can still get loans but you pay the price in higher interstes and that where you loose more money. or you get charge higher insureses rates due to it. I know if a collectoin agecty is after you some banks will not let you open a checking acount until it paid off.
I going to go with file crimal chargest agaist this guy and take him to court. You may end up breaking even which is the same as if you end up just giving hte money back to pay pal but a least you made that guy loose more money that 1600 bucks you may get you G5 back on top of that plus now he is lable as a fraud and will be dealing with fines, a really crappy crieted rating, and will have it on his permit record. He pay the price for the rest of his life. Prinpile of the thing will be there. so you may just be out 1600 bucks either way but at least you took this guy down with you.
Lastly contact a lawyer because this will not go away.
smharmon said:
Dude, you didn't comply with the terms, so you have no seller protection from Paypal. I know you already know this. Bouncing your refund to Paypal probably isn't a good choice either.
The only out you have is to pursue the buyer and get your $1600 now. But I would venture to guess if he was smart enough to con you with a stolen credit card and most likely a stolen identity, then he is smart enough to sell the same machine on eBay/pawn shop/here
, so you will never recover your machine.I'm not sure what answers you are looking for...but I do know that collections will affect your credit score. Repairing it back to an acceptable level takes years, I know from experience. Its taken me 4+ years to get my score back to 700, which still isn't perfect...
Right now my rating is 750 plus... I have no idea how much higher it goes. It is flawless though... but I have no debt... I pay cash for my cars, and my college, and no credit card debt. I only have it on my house... I don't want this mess. I am giving the money to paypal, and calling the police, maybe I can get him in jail... That would be worth 1600 bucks!
Oh, and i don't think he stole an identity... I talked with the guy on the phone, and he told me he "was really enjoying his new computer," and I got screwed cause his "credit card company was taking care of it," I told paypal about all that stuff, and they didn't even care. He just shipped it to his buddies house I bet, as it is 8.1 miles from his residence. I can't believe that on all the internet, the guy that stole his identity was 8.1 miles away... (he claimed he gave his BRAND NEW credit card to an anti-virus company, and they used the number... He wouldn't admit to doing it, just kept making smart comments...
Oh, and i don't think he stole an identity... I talked with the guy on the phone, and he told me he "was really enjoying his new computer," and I got screwed cause his "credit card company was taking care of it," I told paypal about all that stuff, and they didn't even care. He just shipped it to his buddies house I bet, as it is 8.1 miles from his residence. I can't believe that on all the internet, the guy that stole his identity was 8.1 miles away... (he claimed he gave his BRAND NEW credit card to an anti-virus company, and they used the number... He wouldn't admit to doing it, just kept making smart comments...
Don't forget to file a small claims case against him...smharmon said:
If you win that, you really can make his life a living hell -- if you win.
And since this was a deliberate act to defraud you, it's likely that he won't be able to discharge this debt even with a bankruptcy (since the Supreme Court Kawaauhau v. Geiger case would probably apply -- debts arising from "willful and malicious injury by the debtor" are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.)
And if you hound him enough, by seizing any money he ever places in a bank account and garnishing his wages -- he'll probably try a bankruptcy.
If this happened to me, I would immediately do three things;
- Goto the bank and close the account fully. Don't leave a penny in there. Usually they get uppity about this so ask to speak to the manager, and use that opportunity to leverage the situation. They deal with fraud all day every day, and will be able to give you invaluable information on who to contact and what to do. They won't be able to solve it for you, but you could well walk out with the information you need for free. Go there in person.
- Contact the police, and get a crime number for it.
- Contact a lawyer. If only for a one-hour consultation, he may well give you everything you need to resolve this. If you hired him, PayPal would take notice.
I don't want to sound harsh but you need to move. Reducing the funds in your account and posting here isn't enough. Don't ring him again.
AppleMatt
- Goto the bank and close the account fully. Don't leave a penny in there. Usually they get uppity about this so ask to speak to the manager, and use that opportunity to leverage the situation. They deal with fraud all day every day, and will be able to give you invaluable information on who to contact and what to do. They won't be able to solve it for you, but you could well walk out with the information you need for free. Go there in person.
- Contact the police, and get a crime number for it.
- Contact a lawyer. If only for a one-hour consultation, he may well give you everything you need to resolve this. If you hired him, PayPal would take notice.
I don't want to sound harsh but you need to move. Reducing the funds in your account and posting here isn't enough. Don't ring him again.
AppleMatt
If you have the guy's number, the police can trace him to an address. PayPal will have records of the transaction and the cancellation, plus the phone company will have a log of the phone calls you made to him. It's not much, but I reckon there's enough there to at least have the police take you seriously if you make a complaint. I don't want to give any specific advice, as I don't know the US legal system too well and might just be wasting your time, but putting some legal pressure on might pay off. You're sweating your good credit rating against $1600; if you were him, considering a $1600 computer against the chance of a fine/criminal record/jail time if he has previous... I just think you have to be the "good" guy here and chase it through the proper channels.
Does your credit card company offer free legal advice? They may be used to dealing with this and be able to give you some more positive help. Just get all the information you can, get the police involved and take it from there.
I hope this works out ok for you, and that pikey little bastard gets what he deserves.
Does your credit card company offer free legal advice? They may be used to dealing with this and be able to give you some more positive help. Just get all the information you can, get the police involved and take it from there.
I hope this works out ok for you, and that pikey little bastard gets what he deserves.
luckily i've had good luck with PayPal but i try to be as careful as possible. where about's in Cleveland?
750 is in the top tier; great work! I don't know how much a collection would set your score back, but if you already own a house, you're in great shape. Making your house payments is far more important than this scuffle.
The advice about getting a Pro to serve the papers is great advice.
Mantat - I'll refrain from a full-fledged lecture on credit... It's not about getting a mortgage, it's about getting the best possible rate so you don't waste your money.
The advice about getting a Pro to serve the papers is great advice.
Mantat - I'll refrain from a full-fledged lecture on credit... It's not about getting a mortgage, it's about getting the best possible rate so you don't waste your money.
In the future, I recommend sending all packages using the U.S. Post Office. Involving the USPS in a fraud of any kind is mail fraud, a felony, and a federal crime. The USPS also employs its own task force to go after people suspected of mail fraud (the U.S. Postal Inspection Service). Often times they will help you when the police and/or FBI will not.
I hope everything works out for you in this case, and please keep us posted.
I hope everything works out for you in this case, and please keep us posted.
Get the police involved as soon as possible.
Also, to those of you who say "just accept money orders/cashier's checks," BEWARE - I've been scammed by people sending fake US Postal Money Orders before. Always let the M.O.s or CCs clear in your bank account before shipping the item. Also, if you ever sell a big-ticket item and plan on having the person wire-transfer directly into your bank account make sure you wait about a week after it's cleared in your account before shipping. My bank's manager told me that even after a wire-transfer has cleared that the sender can still reverse funds in 5-7 bix days.
Good luck in getting your G5 or getting the crook - be careful out there and be sure to keep us posted.
Also, to those of you who say "just accept money orders/cashier's checks," BEWARE - I've been scammed by people sending fake US Postal Money Orders before. Always let the M.O.s or CCs clear in your bank account before shipping the item. Also, if you ever sell a big-ticket item and plan on having the person wire-transfer directly into your bank account make sure you wait about a week after it's cleared in your account before shipping. My bank's manager told me that even after a wire-transfer has cleared that the sender can still reverse funds in 5-7 bix days.
Good luck in getting your G5 or getting the crook - be careful out there and be sure to keep us posted.
smharmon said:
OUCH, you got scammed and DEFINITELY you should contact the police and go after the scammer
As for Paypal....well, they're not who scammed you. I know they're a big corporation and you're just an individual, but that's not an excuse for trying to stick them with the lose caused when somebody else ripped you off.
It may seem a bit cold but the fact is they're just a company that moves money around between people under certain rules that those customers agree to when they set up an account.
Plus, as you've said, you didn't follow Paypal's rules under which they might have protected you from just this type of fraud.
That said, they sure could be more helpful in investigating this thing.....and maybe they will be once the police are involved....maybe now they're being slow because, well, potentially they're worried you're trying to scam them!
Anyway, I think giving them back the money is the "right" thing, as painful as that is.
Just let us know if you've
A.) Talked to an attorney. (Or, even better, hired one.)
B.) Filed suit and served the guy.
C.) Filed criminal charges, or even just a police report. Since this is across state lines, the FBI might get involved if your police department can find a case.
D.) *EXTREME MEASURE ONLY*If PayPal keeps harassing you even when you've told them that you will only pay them after you have gotten to the bottom of this case, then file suit against them as well for harassment. Might not work too well for anything but getting their attention but they might stop pestering you. Like I said, don't use this unless you need a serious attention-grabber.
A.) Talked to an attorney. (Or, even better, hired one.)
B.) Filed suit and served the guy.
C.) Filed criminal charges, or even just a police report. Since this is across state lines, the FBI might get involved if your police department can find a case.
D.) *EXTREME MEASURE ONLY*If PayPal keeps harassing you even when you've told them that you will only pay them after you have gotten to the bottom of this case, then file suit against them as well for harassment. Might not work too well for anything but getting their attention but they might stop pestering you. Like I said, don't use this unless you need a serious attention-grabber.
kingjr3 said:
Given that Pay Pal wants to act as a bank, without following banking regulations - I WILL NOT GIVE THEM ACCESS to my banking accounts to get "verified". My loss, and the sellers loss IMO; if the sellers do not want a money order or certified check.
Ok, I have not yet contacted a lawyer ($$ problems, I just don't have any extra as my wife and I are in school, work, and have a house and 2 cars, but everything but the house is paid off, and that is why we have so little $$!) I did:
Prepare and fax a complaint to the Cleveland Police Dept.
I also contacted apple, and come to find out, they can track when the guy gets online, and where if only I had the serial number... then I remember, oh yeah! the original invoice has it on there!!! thank heavens for filing cabinets! the only catch is that Apple will only work with the police. I gave the police all the information regarding this whole mess, and we will wait and see what they say. I then may have to contact a lawyer, but again, that takes money, and I am just a 22 yr old college student! I have almost the exact amount they want saved in my savings account (that they don't have numbers to), but i need to keep it in case I do have to pay.
I don't know much about legal stuff, but what do you mean get the suit served by a "Pro?"
If there is a site anyone can direct me to, I would appreciate it. I cannot believe all the help I have gotten so far, and I really appreciate what you guys (or gals) have done for me. I have removed all money from my checking account, and will work on this more before they get any of my money!
thanks again
Prepare and fax a complaint to the Cleveland Police Dept.
I also contacted apple, and come to find out, they can track when the guy gets online, and where if only I had the serial number... then I remember, oh yeah! the original invoice has it on there!!! thank heavens for filing cabinets! the only catch is that Apple will only work with the police. I gave the police all the information regarding this whole mess, and we will wait and see what they say. I then may have to contact a lawyer, but again, that takes money, and I am just a 22 yr old college student! I have almost the exact amount they want saved in my savings account (that they don't have numbers to), but i need to keep it in case I do have to pay.
I don't know much about legal stuff, but what do you mean get the suit served by a "Pro?"
If there is a site anyone can direct me to, I would appreciate it. I cannot believe all the help I have gotten so far, and I really appreciate what you guys (or gals) have done for me. I have removed all money from my checking account, and will work on this more before they get any of my money!
thanks again
Many times people will just serve people through the mail, in person, etc.smharmon said:
But many scumbags will later get out of the judgement by claiming that they were never served, the government courts can serve people by simply dropping a letter in the US mail, and sending it to the adress on tax forms/license -- we have to use the Process Servers for the courts in each county/city, to keep people from using the "improperly/never served" loophole later.
Go to the forums on that site I posted: www.paypalsucks.com
If "Paypal" is harrassing you, it might not be paypal at all, but some jerk that works/or worked for them and is just getting his jollies by giving you grief.
Imagine being a low-paid paypal employee sitting there all day taking abuse - he likely took a lot of abuse from the guy that's trying to scam you - and in turn he takes it out on you.
Of course when you call back to paypal, you always get a different person, and they're too busy to take your $1600 seriously. After all, they deal with millions (or is it billions) of dollars in transactions in a day. Unfortunately, when people deal with that much money, even if they start out being decent people, they lose perspective and $1600 means nothing to them - the impact it might have on you is meaningless.
I know that doesn't help you, but that's the facts. Sometimes, you just need to suck it up and move on. You could spend far more than the $1600 in real money and far more in lost sleep and aggravation trying to recover your computer and still not get any satisfaction. If you do get it back, it will never be the same - whoever has it only needs 10 minutes to render it useless if it looks like it's going back to you.
Don't give paypal any money until you have proof in writing - and delivered to you by registered mail - that you owe them. You've filed with the police, let them handle it. Go to school. Save for a new computer. Don't deal with paypal.
m
If "Paypal" is harrassing you, it might not be paypal at all, but some jerk that works/or worked for them and is just getting his jollies by giving you grief.
Imagine being a low-paid paypal employee sitting there all day taking abuse - he likely took a lot of abuse from the guy that's trying to scam you - and in turn he takes it out on you.
Of course when you call back to paypal, you always get a different person, and they're too busy to take your $1600 seriously. After all, they deal with millions (or is it billions) of dollars in transactions in a day. Unfortunately, when people deal with that much money, even if they start out being decent people, they lose perspective and $1600 means nothing to them - the impact it might have on you is meaningless.
I know that doesn't help you, but that's the facts. Sometimes, you just need to suck it up and move on. You could spend far more than the $1600 in real money and far more in lost sleep and aggravation trying to recover your computer and still not get any satisfaction. If you do get it back, it will never be the same - whoever has it only needs 10 minutes to render it useless if it looks like it's going back to you.
Don't give paypal any money until you have proof in writing - and delivered to you by registered mail - that you owe them. You've filed with the police, let them handle it. Go to school. Save for a new computer. Don't deal with paypal.
m
I know this is a bit off topic, but I've got a question. What does everyone think is the best way to exchange cash when buying and selling things online? I always liked PayPal as a buyer because I can use my credit card, and am therefore protected by the CC company's fraud protection. Sending a money order to me is way too unsafe. The seller can cash the check and keep the goods, and I'm left with no recourse.
As a seller, of course the best way to receive payment is money order (although people fake those too), but buyers tend to be hesitant about buying from you since money orders don't protect them. But, as we have no learned PayPal doesn't really protect the seller, so what are they to do? Maybe PayPal is better if you follow their rules in the seller protection policy, but after looking at www.paypalsucks.com, I'm not so sure.
Any ideas on how both sides can feel safe?
As a seller, of course the best way to receive payment is money order (although people fake those too), but buyers tend to be hesitant about buying from you since money orders don't protect them. But, as we have no learned PayPal doesn't really protect the seller, so what are they to do? Maybe PayPal is better if you follow their rules in the seller protection policy, but after looking at www.paypalsucks.com, I'm not so sure.
Any ideas on how both sides can feel safe?
You'll probably find some of this stuff in your vicinity...
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/justiceCourts/Info/smallclaims.asp#h
...and should have similar means of getting the money from the scumbag.
Even though the guy lives in another state, the state he lives in should honor the collection efforts/judgements from out-of-state (as long as you jump through their hoops.)
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/justiceCourts/Info/smallclaims.asp#h
...and should have similar means of getting the money from the scumbag.
Even though the guy lives in another state, the state he lives in should honor the collection efforts/judgements from out-of-state (as long as you jump through their hoops.)