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Defrauded of $1600 Powermac G5
- Thread starter smharmon
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Please go to your bank, and tell them that Paypal is trying to fraud you. They will open a fraud complaint against Paypal (which will really piss Paypal off), and try to recover your money. Explain the situtation and notify the authorities. If you are a loyal customer of your bank, and have built a successful reputation---they will not stop loaning you money. If they give you a hard time, threaten to pull your savings or other accounts you may have..
Go after the jerk, and keep us informed! Usually if a legal battle involves two people in different states, a special court (in Arkansas its Federal) handles the lawsuit--even if it is only "small claims."
Go after the jerk, and keep us informed! Usually if a legal battle involves two people in different states, a special court (in Arkansas its Federal) handles the lawsuit--even if it is only "small claims."
even money orders
Unfortunately, the news here was just running a story about scams using money orders. It's apparently pretty easy to forge them now given the printing technology available. The banks usually just treat them as good and it's a week or so before it's usually discovered that there is no account behind the money order and now you owe the bank. The worst case they mentioned was loss of a $41,000 classic automobile using this scam.
smharmon said:
Unfortunately, the news here was just running a story about scams using money orders. It's apparently pretty easy to forge them now given the printing technology available. The banks usually just treat them as good and it's a week or so before it's usually discovered that there is no account behind the money order and now you owe the bank. The worst case they mentioned was loss of a $41,000 classic automobile using this scam.
Still demanding the US Postal Service's money orders should still afford you the ability to have the Postal Inspectors on their ass, since they are more willing to prosecute than any other service.DanGuy48 said:
About the only way around all these things is to do the swaps locally and walk into the bank when they get the cashier's check, making sure it's in your name. And using the bank to witness all the signatures on title transfers.
---
Of course even if they pass you the money in the clear for the vehicle, not following the state's method for removing your name from the registration still leaves you liable for the vehicle.
They can buy a car, then use it as a battering ram to destroy somebody's car -- and your ass is on the line, along with any tickets the vehicle collects.
Crap, today I looked at my account, it has a negative balance of almost $1600!!!!!! I called the bank, they said it shouldn't have happened like that (WHAT THE CRAP DOES THAT MEAN) They even charged me $29 for insufficient funds!!! They said they would try to fix it... paypal needs to go to hell... I have yet to be able to get in touch with anyone from paypal. I try to call from work but I can't stay on hold the whole day! Anyway, my paypal account balance is now even, and my bank account is neg. They said that it might have done it since I had lots in other accounts... but i don't have account guard, for that reason! I didn't want paypal to be able to get the money. I couldn't cancel the account cause i still had checks to pay bills out! I guess there went $1600, and I haven't heard from the police..
kingjr3 said:
Don't say you weren't warned. You said you pulled all your money out of the account hoping it would bounce, but your bank honored the withdrawal. Yikes! Now is you bank the evil one too?
Seriously, call paypal and even if you have to hold for 2 hours, wait...this should be worth your time.
kingjr3 said:
well, the bank is who told me to withdraw all the money, and then they wouldn't give any to paypal. I called and talked to them first... it looks like nothing is going to happen. the police in cleveland won't even call me or anything, i doubt they even care... there goes my money and G5 I guess...
Being an avid ebay seller, I have some suggestions. If you sell anything over $100, require money order only and don't list paypal as an option. Paypal is a scam and has a long history of bad business practices. On my current chargeback problem with them, I showed up to their HQ just to be told to leave otherwise the cops were going to be called. I walked in, asked to talk to someone about a problem with my account, gave them the info and then got told I had 5 minutes to leave otherwise they would call law enforcement. Sad day and pissed me off greatly.
Actually this would probably be a cool (and dangerous) method to get out of any creditor problem...Rabidjade said:
Go there with the "intention" of fixing your account and paying off a chargeback problem, and being escorted off the property by the cops along with the warning.
Usually judges will take a dim view of any creditor using the courts to collect any money from a individual after somebody they have already tried to pay a bill in person, acted peacefully, then gets the police called on them and threatened with a jail term.
But some of these people are fighting over thousands of dollars and/or more than enough to buy cars.Rabidjade said:
I've been threatened before, then the guy admitted they do it all the time at their business, and said this usually results in their customers being warned to stay off the property -- for good.
The guy didn't toss me because the second I mentioned a lawyer would slam dunk any case where a dealership damaged a vehicle enough to need a window removed, body panel repainted and interior repairs -- because of their warranty work -- then called the police on them when they compained about the damage.
At that point I was saying, "please, please call the police and have me tossed off the property -- I have timestamped film of the vehicle to go develop that I took before I brought it in." They refused and drove the car to their bodyshop.
Even if you did follow all the rules of eBay and Paypal, eBay still only "covers" you to $200, and Paypal to $500. Its very shady . . .
It seems that Paypal does tis best to eschew all possible liability. If you sell somthing, and the buyer apys with a credit card, and they complain to the credit card company, the credit card company goes after paypal. Paypal's easiest thing to do is to dock your account. Once they get their money back they're even less likely to try to help you out.
I nearly got caught in a similar position - i purchased a 12" powerbook for $1000. The seller required automatic paypal payment from a checking account. Not wanted to give up cc protection, i sent the payment, trasnfered all but a few whundred of my money to another account, and issued a stop payment on debit. One paypal submitted it and it was rejected, it back-sourced to ym credit card. At least I know I could get my money back, even if it takes a month for citibank to "look into it".
But th long and short of it is, I'm through buying anything expensive on eBay.
It seems that Paypal does tis best to eschew all possible liability. If you sell somthing, and the buyer apys with a credit card, and they complain to the credit card company, the credit card company goes after paypal. Paypal's easiest thing to do is to dock your account. Once they get their money back they're even less likely to try to help you out.
I nearly got caught in a similar position - i purchased a 12" powerbook for $1000. The seller required automatic paypal payment from a checking account. Not wanted to give up cc protection, i sent the payment, trasnfered all but a few whundred of my money to another account, and issued a stop payment on debit. One paypal submitted it and it was rejected, it back-sourced to ym credit card. At least I know I could get my money back, even if it takes a month for citibank to "look into it".
But th long and short of it is, I'm through buying anything expensive on eBay.
smharmon said:
Could turn out to be an exciting adventure. May save a few other poor souls on Ebay as well.
Call em up and yell a lot. Threaten to sue. Make up stuff until you talk to someone reeeeeaaly important. Then tell him your story. Tell them what you have been through to talk to them (e.g. I had to make up a story about sending and arm and a leg through the mail untill I could talk to you....etc). Do a lot of angry muttereing. Take down employee names and badge numbers. But make sure that you don't say anything like "PAYPAL SHOULD GO TO %!(*%)@#$ HECK!!!!!" because that will get you nowhere. And next time you (heck, IF you do ) buisiness on eBay, make sure that you are paid and have the money in your account before you send off the product.
The person that should be liable is original credit card company that authorized the pull out of the payment in the first place. What credit card company was it? That company is in some serious trouble you cannot close an account with a balance on it. Unless the person claims it to be a fraudulent purchase. But, if the person did receive it that person is in soo much *h*t.
Some advice
Okay, you wanted some advice, but first a rant. As Chip already said, PayPal wants to act like a bank, but WITHOUT offering ANY of the guarantees that banks offer. This has resulted in a number of class action lawsuits against them for exactly that reason.
Here on the Left coast our consumer protection laws are A1 So I wasn't surprised when I got the following email from PayPal.
IF YOU OPENED A PAYPAL ACCOUNT BETWEEN OCTOBER 1999 AND JANUARY 2004, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED TO A PAYMENT FROM A CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT.
PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE CAREFULLY.
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION
In re PayPal litigation
Case No. CV-02-01227-JF (PVT)
NOTICE OF PENDENCY OF CLASS ACTION AND PROPOSED SETTLEMENT
So, now what can you do about it? First off you have to unlink ALL bank/credit-card info from PayPal, so that they cannot kickback any more charges. Even if it means closing all PayPal linked accounts and opening new ones.
Secondly, you have to speak to your bank manager and firmly but politely ask him to refund your $1,600. When he replies that PayPal has authorized access to your account, you respond - with all relevant dates, times and names of bank employees that you spoke to etc - that you told them that you had a dispute with PayPal and specifically asked them NOT to make any more payments to them, or anybody else (checks already written out obviously excluded) without your authorized consent.
If the bank refuses to refund your money, threaten to close your account and take your business elsewhere. If still no refund is forthcoming, hit them with a claim from smalls claim court.
Trust me, it might take some time - a long time - but you will get your money back.
A friend of mine was charged back $3,000 by American Express because he didn't ship the jewelry to the *customer's* billing address. Turns out that the customer had a stolen credit card, but American Express spoke to him personally before authorizing the transaction. They obviously asked him personal questions etc but I guess the thief had personal info on the legitmate card owner.
To cut a long story short, after AE (American Express) charged back his account, he sued them in small claims court - maximum allowable claim is $5,000. AE didn't bother sending a $300/hour lawyer down to small claims court, so my friend automatically won. Three weeks later he got a check from AE for $3,000 - end of story.
As far as PayPal sending you to collections is concerned, trust me, it's not quite so simple, especially if you dispute the charge back and explain why you are in the right - goods were delivered, they received their fees, and waited so long before disputing the sale etc. And you can threaten to sue them for harrassing you especially seeing as they make person to person contact impossible, doing their harrassing through email and by proxy (the collection agency), especially considering that you have a legitimate dispute about the charge back.
If the worst comes to the worst and you do need to pay the money back to PayPal, you can always pay $10 per month because you are a college student etc. As long as you are paying back something, the collection agency cannot do anything to tarnish your credit rating.
Lastly, as others have laready mentioned, only acept MO, Cashiers Checks and personal checks (with the appropriate waiting period) on Ebay.
Good luck and keep us up to date.
<edit>If dealing with the collection agency gets serious, definitely hire a lawyer to see if it's worth your while fighting them or not. If no go, remember to offer them $10/month
smharmon said:
Okay, you wanted some advice, but first a rant. As Chip already said, PayPal wants to act like a bank, but WITHOUT offering ANY of the guarantees that banks offer. This has resulted in a number of class action lawsuits against them for exactly that reason.
Here on the Left coast our consumer protection laws are A1
So I wasn't surprised when I got the following email from PayPal.IF YOU OPENED A PAYPAL ACCOUNT BETWEEN OCTOBER 1999 AND JANUARY 2004, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED TO A PAYMENT FROM A CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT.
PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE CAREFULLY.
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION
In re PayPal litigation
Case No. CV-02-01227-JF (PVT)
NOTICE OF PENDENCY OF CLASS ACTION AND PROPOSED SETTLEMENT
So, now what can you do about it? First off you have to unlink ALL bank/credit-card info from PayPal, so that they cannot kickback any more charges. Even if it means closing all PayPal linked accounts and opening new ones.
Secondly, you have to speak to your bank manager and firmly but politely ask him to refund your $1,600. When he replies that PayPal has authorized access to your account, you respond - with all relevant dates, times and names of bank employees that you spoke to etc - that you told them that you had a dispute with PayPal and specifically asked them NOT to make any more payments to them, or anybody else (checks already written out obviously excluded) without your authorized consent.
If the bank refuses to refund your money, threaten to close your account and take your business elsewhere. If still no refund is forthcoming, hit them with a claim from smalls claim court.
Trust me, it might take some time - a long time - but you will get your money back.
A friend of mine was charged back $3,000 by American Express because he didn't ship the jewelry to the *customer's* billing address. Turns out that the customer had a stolen credit card, but American Express spoke to him personally before authorizing the transaction. They obviously asked him personal questions etc but I guess the thief had personal info on the legitmate card owner.
To cut a long story short, after AE (American Express) charged back his account, he sued them in small claims court - maximum allowable claim is $5,000. AE didn't bother sending a $300/hour lawyer down to small claims court, so my friend automatically won. Three weeks later he got a check from AE for $3,000 - end of story.
As far as PayPal sending you to collections is concerned, trust me, it's not quite so simple, especially if you dispute the charge back and explain why you are in the right - goods were delivered, they received their fees, and waited so long before disputing the sale etc. And you can threaten to sue them for harrassing you especially seeing as they make person to person contact impossible, doing their harrassing through email and by proxy (the collection agency), especially considering that you have a legitimate dispute about the charge back.
If the worst comes to the worst and you do need to pay the money back to PayPal, you can always pay $10 per month because you are a college student etc. As long as you are paying back something, the collection agency cannot do anything to tarnish your credit rating.
Lastly, as others have laready mentioned, only acept MO, Cashiers Checks and personal checks (with the appropriate waiting period) on Ebay.
Good luck and keep us up to date.
<edit>If dealing with the collection agency gets serious, definitely hire a lawyer to see if it's worth your while fighting them or not. If no go, remember to offer them $10/month
To add and correct what others have said and some advice.
First the advice:
1. Never keep money in your paypal account. They aren't insured and chargeback settlements suck the money right out and you never see it again.
2. Don't believe a word they say when a settlement email arrives. Don't believe their threats or promises on anything.
3. As I said before, any high dollar items you want to ask for postal money orders ONLY. PayPal is handy but I wouldn't trust paypal to value me as a customer. [reworded by moderator]
Corrections.
1. The class action lawsuit that is being held against PayPal is a drop in the bucket for them. I got my check 2 months ago for $7.50. WOW, time to retire. My guess is the pay out is based on how much you used PayPal. I average about $1k a year, more in this year than the past.
2. Calling them up and making legal threats make you look like a little kid and give you a direct line to their legal department. Anyone who has been down this road (as I have) knows being directed to a legal department takes all of your chances and directions you could have taken and cuts them out as options. At this point you got one option, get a lawyer.
More to come.
First the advice:
1. Never keep money in your paypal account. They aren't insured and chargeback settlements suck the money right out and you never see it again.
2. Don't believe a word they say when a settlement email arrives. Don't believe their threats or promises on anything.
3. As I said before, any high dollar items you want to ask for postal money orders ONLY. PayPal is handy but I wouldn't trust paypal to value me as a customer. [reworded by moderator]
Corrections.
1. The class action lawsuit that is being held against PayPal is a drop in the bucket for them. I got my check 2 months ago for $7.50. WOW, time to retire. My guess is the pay out is based on how much you used PayPal. I average about $1k a year, more in this year than the past.
2. Calling them up and making legal threats make you look like a little kid and give you a direct line to their legal department. Anyone who has been down this road (as I have) knows being directed to a legal department takes all of your chances and directions you could have taken and cuts them out as options. At this point you got one option, get a lawyer.
More to come.
OT: So what to do with eBay and PayPal?
The shame of it is that so many legit sellers have moved towards PayPal only. And some have made the move towards PayPal "verified" only.
So far I have not been stung (knock on wood). I am not "verified", refuse to do so. So I miss out on some auctions already.
But so far I love the connivence of paying for goods right away, and getting the goods a week earlier than going the money order/certified check route. And as mentioned many sellers have gone the PayPal way as the only payment.
I know the simple answer is to do business with people that will accept other forms of payment. As stated that is not always possible.
So the question is, how is the best way to deal with PayPal to best protect ones self?
The shame of it is that so many legit sellers have moved towards PayPal only. And some have made the move towards PayPal "verified" only.
So far I have not been stung (knock on wood). I am not "verified", refuse to do so. So I miss out on some auctions already.
But so far I love the connivence of paying for goods right away, and getting the goods a week earlier than going the money order/certified check route. And as mentioned many sellers have gone the PayPal way as the only payment.
I know the simple answer is to do business with people that will accept other forms of payment. As stated that is not always possible.
So the question is, how is the best way to deal with PayPal to best protect ones self?
Chip NoVaMac said:
1. Be a verified address, easier not to get burnt this way (too long to explain why here).
2. Don't think of paypal as a bank account, think of them as the next door neighbor who has a booze problem. They might do a service for you but in the end, all they care about is themselves.
3. DO NOT KEEP MONEY IN YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT.
4. Keep ALL email that have to do with paypal and ebay for at least 6 months. This doesn't mean cut and paste the text in them, but fwd them to a storage account.
5. Download the transaction history every week or so depending on transactions you have. It downloads in a few different formats. Do not touch it and keep it intact. If anything, email it to your storage account so you have a timestamp on it. PayPal has "systems errors" every once in awhile and loses records (to their benefit). Must be those Mac servers they use.
100% correct, but....
You are, of course, 100% correct, the pay out is according to one's usage. The larger the dollar amounts involved, the larger the payout. Although PayPal - now a fully owned subsidiary of Ebay - will have to pay out around 30 million dollars here in California, it's small change for them.
BUT, there is a huge advantage to the consumer once a class action lawsuit has gone forward, and no, I don't mean the $20 to $100 that most consumers will probably end up getting.
I can't speak about other states, but here they have been ordered to clean up their business practises and become more consumer/complaint friendly. If they continue along their old path - which is exactly what I see - they will be hit with larger and more costly fines sooner or later. That is one of the huge advantages of the Left coast, most judges here don't take kindly to big business ripping off "poor, honest, hard working consumers". Especially after they have been forewarned by a class action lawsuit against them.
Obviously none of this happens overnight, but I personally have seen quite a few multi-million dollar companies be driven out of business here due to the fines heaped on them because of poor, consumer unfriendly business practises. Any Californians remember Adrays and how many stores they had???
Other than that, all potential PayPal/Ebay users would do well to read the excellent advice offered here
Rabidjade said:
You are, of course, 100% correct, the pay out is according to one's usage. The larger the dollar amounts involved, the larger the payout. Although PayPal - now a fully owned subsidiary of Ebay - will have to pay out around 30 million dollars here in California, it's small change for them.
BUT, there is a huge advantage to the consumer once a class action lawsuit has gone forward, and no, I don't mean the $20 to $100 that most consumers will probably end up getting.
I can't speak about other states, but here they have been ordered to clean up their business practises and become more consumer/complaint friendly. If they continue along their old path - which is exactly what I see - they will be hit with larger and more costly fines sooner or later. That is one of the huge advantages of the Left coast, most judges here don't take kindly to big business ripping off "poor, honest, hard working consumers". Especially after they have been forewarned by a class action lawsuit against them.
Obviously none of this happens overnight, but I personally have seen quite a few multi-million dollar companies be driven out of business here due to the fines heaped on them because of poor, consumer unfriendly business practises. Any Californians remember Adrays and how many stores they had???
Other than that, all potential PayPal/Ebay users would do well to read the excellent advice offered here
Could you have just sold it locally? I sold my eMac and iBook locally. I don't see the point of using eBay. It should be called ScamBay. The prices for stuff always seems so high from a buyer's view.
Rabidjade said:1. Be a verified address, easier not to get burnt this way (too long to explain why here).
2. Don't think of paypal as a bank account, think of them as the next door neighbor who has a booze problem. They might do a service for you but in the end, all they care about is themselves.
3. DO NOT KEEP MONEY IN YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT.
4. Keep ALL email that have to do with paypal and ebay for at least 6 months. This doesn't mean cut and paste the text in them, but fwd them to a storage account.
5. Download the transaction history every week or so depending on transactions you have. It downloads in a few different formats. Do not touch it and keep it intact. If anything, email it to your storage account so you have a timestamp on it. PayPal has "systems errors" every once in awhile and loses records (to their benefit). Must be those Mac servers they use.
Good points. Yet, on
#1, to be veriefied according to my reading is that you have to give them an actual bank account.
#2, I actually think of them more as Russian mobsters (sorry to Russians her, I am Slovak background).
#3, hard to do with a Checkcard or Credit Card.
#4, I have emails going back 3 years on personal and business transaction.
#5, many thanks for the tip there....
absolut_mac said:You are, of course, 100% correct, the pay out is according to one's usage. The larger the dollar amounts involved, the larger the payout. Although PayPal - now a fully owned subsidiary of Ebay - will have to pay out around 30 million dollars here in California, it's small change for them.
BUT, there is a huge advantage to the consumer once a class action lawsuit has gone forward, and no, I don't mean the $20 to $100 that most consumers will probably end up getting.
I can't speak about other states, but here they have been ordered to clean up their business practises and become more consumer/complaint friendly. If they continue along their old path - which is exactly what I see - they will be hit with larger and more costly fines sooner or later. That is one of the huge advantages of the Left coast, most judges here don't take kindly to big business ripping off "poor, honest, hard working consumers". Especially after they have been forewarned by a class action lawsuit against them.
Obviously none of this happens overnight, but I personally have seen quite a few multi-million dollar companies be driven out of business here due to the fines heaped on them because of poor, consumer unfriendly business practises. Any Californians remember Adrays and how many stores they had???
Other than that, all potential PayPal/Ebay users would do well to read the excellent advice offered here
Call me jaded, but the only winners in a class action suit are those that first the suit, and the attorneys. Very seldom do such suits bring an award anywhere close to the actual damages suffered by the others. In some cases it may bring about changes for future users, but no relief for those that were actually harmed.