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tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
Basically what we have here is Apple redefining "streaming".

Perhaps this is part of/the beginning of that "new technology" Apple is working on ?

Go ahead. Give me them -1 :)

No, what we have here is Apple using the correct terminology.

There's several ways to supply a media file from a server for a user to view or listen to it:
1) Download - The user downloads the file and then plays it.
2) Streaming - The user receives a stream of data and the software only keeps enough of it around to buffer against transmission lags. If the user wants to rewind, the software will have to request that bit of data again.
3) Progressive Download - This is the best of both worlds. The user can start viewing or listening to the file as soon as a local buffer has been filled (or even before, but it'll get choppy at points), *and* the software keeps the data around so the user can rewind and fast forward to any point within the file (at least as far as has been received so far).

Based on the analysis we've seen so far, Apple *isn't* streaming, they're providing a progressive download.
 

nylonsteel

macrumors 68000
Nov 5, 2010
1,549
489
re original article
regarding the semantics of streaming - in this case
as long as it works good - im ok with whatever they want to call it
 

mfr1340

macrumors regular
Mar 4, 2011
190
1
n. cal
cloud

It seems that the cloud is for people that tried to save money by getting a 8 or 16 gig iphone or ipad. I allways buy the best product with the( most ram that is offered) in the things that I buy. I have all my cd's on my phone, ipad, laptop, and desk top computer. It takes very little room. Even thou I only have 500 songs, it is more than I would ever need to listen to. I also have apps that can listen to all kinds of radio stations.
Most of the people who bought the 8 and 16 gig units now find that it isn't enough storage. I also had about 150 apps on my phone (mostly free ones) but I don't use them so I took them off.
Buy the best, that you can afford, and you will be happy with your purchase!
 

tbrinkma

macrumors 68000
Apr 24, 2006
1,651
93
You know, you're wrong. Lossless audio is the only kind of audio thats interesting to me, when it comes to my personal collection. I tolerate other bit rates, but not for music I truly care about.

Live performances should never be listened to in anything other than lossless, or you're simply listening to a bunch of noise.

No, he's right. You're not suffering, you're just whining about not being catered to.

FYI: If you're listening to a recording, lossless or otherwise, you're not listening to a *live performance*. A live performance should never be listened to in anything other than the venue where the performance is being held.
 

theelysium

Suspended
Nov 18, 2008
562
360
What a tool

This guy clearly does not know how to operate and iPhone.

He's like struggling, can't find the buttons press the home button unnecessarily.

What a tool.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,929
3,677
I did a Foobar2000 ABX Comparator test between 320Kbps LAME, V0 LAME, 320Kbps AAC, 320Kbps Fraunhofer, 320Kbps ABR LAME, ALAC and FLAC. The lossy formats were derived from the FLAC original.

Done volume matched, double-blind? Otherwise your comparisons are meaningless.

You know, you're wrong. Lossless audio is the only kind of audio thats interesting to me, when it comes to my personal collection. I tolerate other bit rates, but not for music I truly care about.

Live performances should never be listened to in anything other than lossless, or you're simply listening to a bunch of noise.

Yet its funny that the vast majority of musicians I know, especially the really good classical ones, care little about recorded audio quality, and can be moved deeply by a piece played over the radio on a crappy car stereo. :rolleyes:
 

Peace

Cancelled
Apr 1, 2005
19,546
4,556
Space The Only Frontier
Done volume matched, double-blind? Otherwise your comparisons are meaningless.



Yet its funny that the vast majority of musicians I know, especially the really good classical ones, care little about recorded audio quality, and can be moved deeply by a piece played over the radio on a crappy car stereo. :rolleyes:

Classical music has been in my blood since 1963 when I first started playing the French Horn.

I do enjoy listening to it on a car radio. It's because music is in my blood. Any musician would understand that. However I would much rather listen or play it in an acoustically designed building.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,929
3,677
However I would much rather listen or play it in an acoustically designed building.

Of course. This was in response to people who act like the only music worth listening to is in a perfect environment. In my experience, those are the people who tend to like listening to the equipment rather than the music.
 

mfr1340

macrumors regular
Mar 4, 2011
190
1
n. cal
real music

Of course. This was in response to people who act like the only music worth listening to is in a perfect environment. In my experience, those are the people who tend to like listening to the equipment rather than the music.

Most of the people complaining are going deaf any how. None of the people have ever had their hearing checked. They probley have alot of loss in the upper and the lower ranges. When you can hear them coming down the street from 2 blocks away, and you can feel the bass pounding away. They don't realize what they are doing to their hearing. And once it goes it never comes back.
 

nope7308

macrumors 65816
Oct 6, 2008
1,040
537
Ontario, Canada
A couple things - it's impractical to stream all your music over 3G, but it will be great for those times when you want a particular song that isn't on your device.

Also, people seem to forget that you can use it over wifi as well. You wouldn't use streaming in that situation but it would be great for road trips - listen to a bunch of music, next time you're in your hotel room or a coffee shop with wifi you refresh your playlists and download a bunch of new songs. Not to mention things like listening to your iTunes library at work.

I'm still skeptical. Let's assume an average song is about 3.5mb in size, and you have monthly data allowance of 500mb. That allows you to download roughly 143 songs before reaching your data limit.

Now, let's factor in data that's used for other downloads/games, apps, email, etc. Assuming that eats about 100mb - leaving you with 400 - you then have enough data for about 114 songs before exceeding your data allowance.

Assume you have 4 playlists with about 40-50 songs on each, and you can easily exceed your monthly data allowance. If you have to rely on a wifi connection, then you're not really able to listen where you want/when you want. I just don't see how people can take advantage of the iCloud concept given the data restrictions they have to work with. Canadian consumers are being gouged by the big telecom companies, so perhaps this is a more pressing issue north of the border?
 

SirHaakon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2007
763
6
Nope, that doesn't seem to be the case at all. Some songs are matched, any that aren't in the apple store are uploaded so they are available to you.
That's exactly what he said... you can only stream things you own. Whether the iTunes store actually carries it or not is irrelevant; that's why they allow you to upload those files manually. But you cannot stream the entire iTunes library (ala Spotify) on demand; it is only the music you personally own.
 

SirHaakon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2007
763
6
It would make no sense for Apple to stream-only, as most users are going to re-listen to favourite songs and albums, so it makes no sense to stream them time and again when you can just keep the whole file from the first play-through and re-play it.
You do realize that this is exactly what is happening, though; a song only stays in the cache until the next song begins playing. So unless you are listening to the same song over and over again, you are transferring the data for that song every time you decide to play it.

I can understand why people think this is not streaming, as they are getting thrown off by the fact that Apple is automatically saving the cached copy. But whether the stream is live or not (think of a radio show or other broadcast where data keeps coming in indefinitely until the program has completed vs. a completed file with a determined size that you play as it downloads), you're still streaming. Simply having a copy of the file on your computer after the stream is finished doesn't make it non-streaming; even a live stream can be saved to disk. The fact that you can go to any part of a song before it has downloaded and instantly start playing it shows that it is a stream.
 

JAT

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2001
6,473
124
Mpls, MN
CD and vinyl were proven to have the same audio fidelity, as long as they're through hi-fi speakers.
Unless you mean cheap-ass speakers. No. They have different dynamic ranges, different response curves, etc.
No, he's right. You're not suffering, you're just whining about not being catered to.
I tried the iTunes auto-128k-transfer-to-iPhone once. Once. It hurt. Still haven't taken the lossless files off, although I'm coming close to trying 256k.
Yet its funny that the vast majority of musicians I know, especially the really good classical ones, care little about recorded audio quality, and can be moved deeply by a piece played over the radio on a crappy car stereo. :rolleyes:
That's crap. Let's see them say that. Maybe they care little about recorded audio, period.
Most of the people complaining are going deaf any how. None of the people have ever had their hearing checked. They probley have alot of loss in the upper and the lower ranges. When you can hear them coming down the street from 2 blocks away, and you can feel the bass pounding away. They don't realize what they are doing to their hearing. And once it goes it never comes back.
I hope you aren't equating morons with the audiophile group. I can still hear NTSC TV whine. (if I could find such a TV) 15.7KHz, and I'm 40 and male. Per the standard charts, I should already be down to 13KHz or so at conversational dbs.
 

SirHaakon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2007
763
6
Blah blah blah... I can hear better than you.
Once again, the point of this service is not to debate the merits of modern audio compression, but to provide a streaming option for those who enjoy their music on the go. This service doesn't degrade the audio any further than it already is being provided today; if that isn't good enough for you then you aren't in the iTunes demographic to begin with.
 

Dcuellar

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2010
245
6
I'm still skeptical. Let's assume an average song is about 3.5mb in size, and you have monthly data allowance of 500mb. That allows you to download roughly 143 songs before reaching your data limit.

Now, let's factor in data that's used for other downloads/games, apps, email, etc. Assuming that eats about 100mb - leaving you with 400 - you then have enough data for about 114 songs before exceeding your data allowance.

Assume you have 4 playlists with about 40-50 songs on each, and you can easily exceed your monthly data allowance. If you have to rely on a wifi connection, then you're not really able to listen where you want/when you want. I just don't see how people can take advantage of the iCloud concept given the data restrictions they have to work with. Canadian consumers are being gouged by the big telecom companies, so perhaps this is a more pressing issue north of the border?

If I can't afford to purchase a plan with more than 500mb then I would be downloading the songs on a wifi network in preparation for long trips, gym time, etc...
 

jaw04005

macrumors 601
Aug 19, 2003
4,513
400
AR
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but tracks that were unlocked with Requiem don't get matched and are instead uploaded to iCloud.

To prevent this from happening (and therefore get the free 256kbps Apple-sanctioned 'Matched AAC File'), you must first delete the unlocked file and redownload the DRMed file from the Purchased section of the iTunes Store.

Then, run iTunes Match. Finally, remove the file from your library (after iTunes Match has completed) and redownload using the cloud icon.

Also, iTunes Match apparently uses GraceNote so using a program like TuneUp ($30 per year) to fix your library will be very helpful in preventing unnecessary track uploads for non-iTunes purchased content.

I had a hell of a time trying to get Amazon Mp3 files to match without uploading. Ran them through TuneUp (which I already owned), and they sailed right through without uploading. In fact, Genius, Ping and Get Album Artwork also now work with them.

Lots of bugs remain. However, I'm sure Apple is working on all of this.
 

BlackMangoTree

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2010
896
2
I did a Foobar2000 ABX Comparator test between 320Kbps LAME, V0 LAME, 320Kbps AAC, 320Kbps Fraunhofer, 320Kbps ABR LAME, ALAC and FLAC. The lossy formats were derived from the FLAC original.

Between the lossy formats, there was little to no difference in sound quality. V0 had the lowest file size, which makes sense because it's a variable bit rate.
The difference between the lossless formats were nonexistent.
The difference between lossy formats and lossless formats were extremely clear. Because I listen to non-compressed music (as opposed to the 21st century's heavily compressed waveforms), the song I chose was 1812 Overture Telarc edition because:
Cannons provide high peak volumes
The choir entrance provides low volumes
The quality of the recording captures a large range of frequencies
It's an epic song to listen to and does not bore you when you listen to it for the 10th time

In most of the lossy formats, the peak volume of certain cannon shots were distorted. Low volumes were hard to hear. A certain ambience was removed from the original lossless version. The distortion was heavy, especially during the "s" sounds of the choir.

I could write a science paper on this...


Point being, the majority of people listen to the compressed music of the 21st century (see Death Magnetic). Which means the music is somewhat distorted to some extent already when in a lossless format, and when you transcode that music into a 320Kbps file, you won't really notice the degradation because the original itself was already distorted.
When the lossless original is distortion-free, such as the 1812 Overture recording that I tested with, the lost of data is clearly audible when you convert them into MP3s.

(compression in this post means dynamic range compression)


And it's often times not the device that limits the sound quality, but rather it's the speakers. The majority of users either go with the comfort of Apple's remote and mic or with cheap Skullcandy/JVC/etc. which don't even come close to replicating the fidelity of lossless music. When you have high-fidelity studio headphones and speakers, you can enjoy lossless music to its fullest extent.

PM me i have some $12000 HDMI cables you will be interested in.

PS, you want to be taken seriously post your ABX logs.
 

JAT

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2001
6,473
124
Mpls, MN
Once again, the point of this service is not to debate the merits of modern audio compression, but to provide a streaming option for those who enjoy their music on the go. This service doesn't degrade the audio any further than it already is being provided today; if that isn't good enough for you then you aren't in the iTunes demographic to begin with.
Sometimes there are smaller threads within a forum thread. Roll with it.
 

SirHaakon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 14, 2007
763
6
Sometimes there are smaller threads within a forum thread. Roll with it.
I don't have a problem with that, I just think you're about 20 years late if you want to start debating the merits of mp3 compression.
 

t0mat0

macrumors 603
Aug 29, 2006
5,473
284
Home
Interesting to see that this is coming to people without iTunes Match - just download a podcast from a feed you follow - you'll get the stream option (which is back - it had gone away for a while during this beta) and also a download option - then you get the circular download.

Whether the music app and iTunes are actually going to realise the files are equivalent to just downloading in iTunes, and put it in the right place chronologically on the iPhone podcast list after download, and not have hassle on the iTunes list, we'll see.
 

iMultitask

macrumors newbie
Aug 30, 2011
4
0
im more than happy on Google Music Beta.

you can stream, or download the song onto your phone. you know, choices.

oh and its free (up to 20,000 songs)

i have about 8 Google music invites so if anyone is interested pm me.

Hi Aohus

I would really like to try out Google Music and would like an invite if you have one left I usually just read Macrumors so lost my old account and had to reply in this thread. Will get back to you when I can PM :p
 
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