Detailed Notes about IBM 970

[ddtlm]

lou tsee:

You may or may not be schooled on digital devices, but you have mastered the art of admiting error. 🙂 I'd say it's at least as important as all this techno-babble.

elohim01:

I am still betting that any laptop based on the 130nm PPC-970 will be more than 1" thick.

 

[NMR Guy]

It sounds like the only option right now but I have read about dual channel DDR memory, it would need to be 2 x 333Mhz which is still less than the cpu needs.

With the same 1066Mhz RDRAM as the pentium 4 can use, this chip will have all the bandwidth it needs...

Actually, dual channel DDR 333 memory has a higher bancdwidth than dual channel RDRAM 1066 memory. This is because each DDR module is 64 bits wide (total = 128 bits), whereas each RDRAM module is 16 bits wide (total = 32 bits). Total bandwidth is ~ 4.3 GB/sec for dual channel RDRAM, and ~5.3 GB/sec for dual channel DDR 333.

 

[Cappy]

And by the time this thing is shipping we'll probably be seeing ddr 400 in dual channel configs or possibly qdr although I haven't read on any release dates for it.

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by ddtlm
lou tsee:

Pal, you are ignorant of how digital devices work.


The Power4, PPC-970 and all other current processors are synchronous digital devices. This means that nothing happens anywhere unless there is a clock pulse telling it to happen. The millions of transistors "march" much like an army. The only way to make anything faster on a given design is to increase the clock speed.

What RWT was talking about is simply that IBM can make the transistors faster by making them less durable. But this doesn't mean anything unless they also increase the clock speed. Even if every transistor in the chip is done with its "work" in the first 10% of every clock cycle, they sit on the butts until the next clock pulse tells them to "work" again.

So yes, we are back to increased clock speed on the same core and the existance of AltiVec as far as the only two things a PPC-970 has that can make it go faster than a Power4.

So is it just a bunch of crap when they state that it can achieve up to 8 operations per clock cycle?

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by ddtlm
lou tsee:

You may or may not be schooled on digital devices, but you have mastered the art of admiting error. 🙂 I'd say it's at least as important as all this techno-babble.

elohim01:

I am still betting that any laptop based on the 130nm PPC-970 will be more than 1" thick.

I would also be willing to bet it will be a long way off like maybe early 2004. The desktops always get updated first and the powerbooks follow afterwards.

It's also still a mistake to make your purchasing plans based on this info. It is still a rumor that Apple will even use these chips no matter how likely or how logical it may seem. If you need a new computer/laptop buy it don't wait because such and such rumor says this or that. If you do you will wait for ever because there is always something a thousand times better just around the corner according to rumors.

 

[barkmonster]

Most of the music studios around here (a lot of studios in this town) use MAcs. infact a lot of them still have the Blue and White G3's that there old Pro Tools setup came in. They trust them, and frankly, they are fast enough for the task.

People who come in here and rant about raw speed always seem ingnorant about these industries to me. Speed is wonderful, sure, but not the whole package, especially not in Audio and Video.

I totally agree, if I could afford the 3 grand or so (UK pounds) for a used Protools|24 Mix system, any G4 system of 500Mhz or more would offer me enough extra power to run all the RTAS plug-ins and software synths I'd ever want to use because the DSPs on the mix card would cope with quite a few plug-ins that could bring any cpu to it's knees (Sans-amp, RenVerb, Realverb etc...).

The problem I have is that I can't afford a full protools system and I'd be more than happy with a faster mac running Protools LE, my beige G3 is very long in the tooth but I still run protools LE on it because I can't afford a new mac for at least another 4 months or so, that's why I think a faster mac is more important for hobbyist audio/video work than it is for professionals. I know even an 800Mhz G4 runs rings around my current mac, with the dual cpu support coming in Protools LE 6.0 under OSX I'd have an even better system but waiting for a 1.4 - 1.8Ghz GPUL based powermac seems so much better because it should have something like the raw speed Athlon and Pentium 4 based protools LE systems have. If you can't afford the TDM hardware and you don't need to use n amount of mac only plug-ins, the windows platform is certainly a lot faster, 1.5 - 2.5 x faster at present and that's comparing a fairly modern dual G4 in the 800Mhz - 1Ghz range to a 2.2Ghz P4 or Athlon XP 2200+ system you could build for about a 3rd of the price of a dual Ghz powermac. I wouldn't switch to window because I need a lot of mac only software and even without it, no midi patchname manangement and 1 lousy tone module plug-in isn't enough to go with all that extra speed I'm never going to have any genuine use for.

A GPUL based mac with well matched RAM would give me the best of both worlds. I think it's worth the wait for hobbyists, even if the professionals are fine with their current setups.

 

[shadowfax0]

Could anyone spill all the beans on the AMD Clawhammer so we can compare these two...??

 

[jettredmont]

Re: Good for Powerbooks too?

Originally posted by foniks2020
At the end of the article in the summary of specs he lists the 1.2 ghz 970 with 19w of power used... how does this compare to current G4s being used in Powerbooks? While I didn't look too hard for this spec just now it isn't specifically listed at Apples tech spec page for Powerbooks or G4.... any experts out there?

According to http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7445&nodeId=01M98653:

Typical: 10.3 @ 733 MHz
Max: 14.5 @ 733 MHz

Note that this is at 733MHz, not 1.2GHz. I would be surprised if the "typical" power dissipation was 19w at 1.2GHz, but the "max" dissipation may very well be that high. Not sure which figure you are quoting for the PowrPC 970.

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by shadowfax0
Could anyone spill all the beans on the AMD Clawhammer so we can compare these two...??

Do a search through the threads. There were some very interesting discussions on other 64Bit processors when the info of the PPC970 was first released last week.

 

[ddtlm]

MacBandit:

So is it just a bunch of crap when they state that it can achieve up to 8 operations per clock cycle?

Well, pretty much yes, but not for any reason related to the post of mine that you replied to. IBM tells the truth when they say "retrieves up to 8 instructions per cycle" but people have ran off and decided that it can do 8 operations per clock, which is not what IBM said. The Power4 and PPC-970 can only retire one bundle of instructions, which is up to 5 instructions, per cycle. AFAIK it could maintain 5 instuctions per cycle "forever" in the perfect program.

The above does not include the AtliVec unit. I have no idea how many AltiVec instructions can be issued, retired, or anything else... and I don't know how that effects the scalar executions and retires. I don't know where to find that info either. Perhaps, just perhaps, the PPC-970 really can sustain 8 instructions per clock if we include AltiVec. More info is needed.

 

[lou tsee]

to jettredmont:

the specs you supply belong to the 7445, whereas the new
powerbooks (DVI) use the 7441 as far as I know

(http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_processor/powerpc7400.html)

the 7441 has the following figures:

14.5W @ 667 MHz, 19.0W @ 667MHz

so the PB 800 should max out at somewhere around 23W

meaning the ppc970 is roughly whithin this range!

 

[MacCoaster]

Nice. Volume production by mid 2003. Better than I expected. But we still gotta wait to see if it lives up the hype.

 

[PrettyMan]

Nice.

My 400Mhz iMac SE and I will wait eight months.

I'm not goin to buy a new system now if I'll have a hyper-super-great-mac in that period of time !!!

Ciao.

 

[Tue12]

This leaking news is going to hurt Apple sales. Everyone is gonna wait for one of these bad boys. 🙂

Including me. Forget my plans for an iMac. I'll take one of these monsters...after winning the lottery 😀

Dual 1.8Ghz PPC970
900Mhz bus
Radeon 9700Pro, etc...etc... 😀
oh, yeah ... 23" HD Cinema Display

...for'ged aboud id! 😀

 

[Cappy]

Originally posted by Tue12
This leaking news is going to hurt Apple sales. Everyone is gonna wait for one of these bad boys. 🙂

That's why I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Apple must have something planned to hold people over before then. I'd guess that Apple is going to go with a new Moto chip like the mystical G5 for the desktop. It all kinda makes sense because no matter how people want to warp the facts, everything is currently pointing to Apple using this in "high-end" systems if they do use it and would "almost" suggest that even the sub-$2000 PowerMacs may not have this cpu. That's my own speculation though...or maybe just my luck since I couldn't afford anything more than that. 😉

 

[tychay]

XServe first

Remember, these things are going to appear in the XServe line first, then the pro desktop line. And then the pro notebook line--Q1 2004 seems optimistic for us Powerbook G4-Ti owners 😉.

It's interesting to note the need of separate controllers and separate memory busses for each CPU. This fixes a problem in the dual-G4s where they are forced to share the memory bus which negates the DDR speed advantage. One wonders if Apple had a hand in that?

Unfortunately, this probably means that the dual and quad CPU PPC970 XServes would be very expensive, and probably the pro-desktop model will move back to a single CPU PPC970 (assuming Apple calls this chip "G5" and not a 64-bit Motorola chip).

 

[MacBandit]

I don't want to insult people but I think that anyone who wants a new computer now and is instead going to wait because of a rumor is a complete idiot. Buy your computer now and in a few years you will be ready to upgrade and guess what there will be something even faster then a 1.8Ghz PPC970 by then. There will always be something faster tomorrow. Get what you want today. Also there has been absolutely no guarantee that Apple will go into production with this chip. It does seem highly likely but no press release has been made.

 

[PrettyMan]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I don't want to insult people but I think that anyone who wants a new computer now and is instead going to wait because of a rumor is a complete idiot.

But yo do it !!

I've an three years old iMac and it seems to work fine for me and I was thinking to buy a recent DP. But I can wait, because of I'm not using it at work (I've a new 1Ghz DP threre) and I don't use it to play games.

I think that anyone who thinks people is idiot is no very intelligent. There is a lot of reasons to wait, and rumors is one of them.

Ciao.

 

[ddtlm]

I have to agree with MacBandit about the logic in waiting (if you need a machine now). For all we know, if Macs are offered with PPC-970's they may only be offered in single-CPU configs, greatly reducing the performance edge (over a dual G4). They may (at first) be available at only 1.4ghz... or some other speed very close to dual CPU G4's they could replace. They could cost a lot more than the current dual 1.25. They could be delayed until 2004, and then be all of those bad things I listed, all at once!

(Or, they could be none of the bad things I listed.)

 

[scem0]

sort of ironic how for years everyone only talked about the g5, and waited and waited and waited for it, and it will probably come out in Jan, and nobody is gunna buy it. Poor g5 😱 ...

😀

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by PrettyMan


But yo do it !!

I've an three years old iMac and it seems to work fine for me and I was thinking to buy a recent DP. But I can wait, because of I'm not using it at work (I've a new 1Ghz DP threre) and I don't use it to play games.

I think that anyone who thinks people is idiot is no very intelligent. There is a lot of reasons to wait, and rumors is one of them.

Ciao.

I only think someone is an idiot if they wait based on rumors. If Apple were to say tomorrow that they planned on using the PPC970 and it will be released in August, hell I'd wait. As it is I already have my new Dual/Ghz/DDR and I am not dissapointed in that I didn't wait. This machine is incredibly fast and will do what I need it do for 2 or 3 years at which point I will upgrade.

Rumors really suck because all they do is get people hopes up and hurt the current business and when they turn out to be untrue everyones pissed off especially at the company. It's not there fault so and so said that the new computer would be able to transport you anywhere in the world and back in seconds.

Be realistic people rumors are rumors and are complete fiction until prooven otherwise.

 

[Telomar]

Originally posted by MacBandit
I don't want to insult people but I think that anyone who wants a new computer now and is instead going to wait because of a rumor is a complete idiot. Buy your computer now and in a few years you will be ready to upgrade and guess what there will be something even faster then a 1.8Ghz PPC970 by then. There will always be something faster tomorrow. Get what you want today. Also there has been absolutely no guarantee that Apple will go into production with this chip. It does seem highly likely but no press release has been made.

Although I'd generally agree in this case I do disagree with that. You are forgetting those that actually will see large advantages witha 64-bit processor. It is far better for me to wait 6 months than buy at the next revision then have to wait for my next purchase cycle to buy. Having my mac as a 64-bit machine is simply too important to me. 64-bit computing opens up avenues for some professions that simply aren't available with current hardware and I would strongly suggest to those people to wait.

 

[Cappy]

I think the one thing that *will* literally drive Mac fanatics crazy is that Apple won't announce if they're even going to use this cpu until the last possible minute which could be at such an unveiling. I could honestly see something like this happening thus it will remain a rumor until something does or doesn't happen. If anyone is expecting some announcement at the next Macworld that they're going to be using these, they're nuts. I just don't see how Apple could possibly benefit from announcing it. It's not the same as going from 68k to PPC where it well known far ahead of time.

 

[hesdeadjim]

I agree to a point

I only think someone is an idiot if they wait based on rumors. If Apple were to say tomorrow that they planned on using the PPC970 and it will be released in August, hell I'd wait. As it is I already have my new Dual/Ghz/DDR and I am not dissapointed in that I didn't wait. This machine is incredibly fast and will do what I need it do for 2 or 3 years at which point I will upgrade.

Rumors really suck because all they do is get people hopes up and hurt the current business and when they turn out to be untrue everyones pissed off especially at the company. It's not there fault so and so said that the new computer would be able to transport you anywhere in the world and back in seconds.

Be realistic people rumors are rumors and are complete fiction until prooven otherwise.

I think you are being too harsh. I agree that most people put too much into rumors, but they are good in letting you judge when an update is coming and when to update your own computer. I agree that if you need a computer now, you shouldn't be too concerned about updates unless it looks like it will be in a few weeks. This computer will serve you well even if it is only the top of the line for a month. The big problem is that rumors are useless this far in advance.

 

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by scem0
sort of ironic how for years everyone only talked about the g5, and waited and waited and waited for it, and it will probably come out in Jan, and nobody is gunna buy it. Poor g5 😱 ...

😀

That's what I fear too. Did you read between the lines of the Q4 results guys? The future looks anything but bright for Apple.

International sales dropped 30-40%, depending on the region. Now Apple gets the shaft for neglecting the outside US customers so badly over the years. And I can exactly tell you when that neglecting started. It was when Jobs took back over Apple. He is not able to think global. He proved that so many times. The iMacs may be cool for North America, but they are not very atractive for european customers. He never gave a damn. The products are always designed for the american market, instead of making a difference in the product lines and to provide an acceptable pricing. Can anybody tell me, why I should pay about 10-15% more for every Apple product?

The customers outside the US are sick of paying insane prices for Macs compared to the US prices. They are sick of having a really bad support. For example: .Mac is especially for the US market. But if I want to use it as a european too, I have to pay the same price, although not all features are available for me and I have no support in Germany.

Apple did really a bad job when they pulled from the CeBIT in Hannover a few years ago. The biggest computer fair of the world. They don't show presence at all here. The market share is down to rediculous 1.5% here in Germany. It was almost 10% ten years ago. Most of the Apple retailers go bancrupt because of Apple's policy. And now finally they won the jackpot with forcing the retailers into new contracts with insane conditions (one is that Apple has the right to check the books of the retailer at any given time without notice) that made again some retailers to turn the back to Apple.

Apple has to play global and fair if they want to survive... just Mr. Jobs can't get that!

I have a really bad feeling this time considering Apple and it was never that bad before.

And I think scem0's statement could be a kind of prophecy... by the time the "G5" or however it will be called will be out, nobody cares anymore, because nobody is seriously considering to buy an Apple anymore for professional work and a lot of them will have replaced their workstations with alternatives to Apple.

I will go on using my Macs as long as it makes sense to do so, meaning also support from Software Companys that provide me with the Software I need. But somehow I start to believe that my workstations I make money with won't have the Apple logo anymore in about 2 years.

groovebuster

P.S.: You should hear the statements of traditional Mac users here in Germany. Most of them are pissed and most of them seriously consider to switch in the near future if the situation doesn't change.