forgive him, he is only 15 and his mother pays for his expenses...
about ebay: not really the source for a long standing supplier. you better won't build a discussion about a company and their products on it!
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about ebay: not really the source for a long standing supplier. you better won't build a discussion about a company and their products on it!
All this I know this person who's computer does this. I know this person who's computer does that. I say get right down to the facts. Windows is a nasty architecture. It's "plug-n-play" model sucks and works about 60-80% of the time. The driver model sucks and much of the driver software goes through so little R&Q testing that driver compatibility is almost as bad as extension compatibility when System 7 came out. It's also not dynamicly loaded meaning you have to reboot your machine for just about everything. And the registry has got to be the WORST frickin idea in the history of computing, I swear. I'd say that impacts the usability of most users. I use a Windows 2000 machine all day (iceBook when I come home). I can say that I seriously have MUCH less "out of the blue" problems with my Mac. Nor do I have to reboot all the time.
I also work in an IT organization for an enterprise with over 10,000 employees (Only about 2,000 or so at my location.) We use everything Dell (except for printers). Why do we use them? Because they're cheap. Do we have problems with reliability? Not so much with the desktops and workstations. But the laptops are absolute crap. So far we've had about 10 motherboard replacements with the Latitude C610 models because they just died. Their clocks are all screwed up meaning we're probably going to have to replace more. The video drivers are completely buggy and Windows Explorer freezes on them. And this is with Win2k with the most updated drivers available. So scem0, while you may have had a good experience with Dell, I can assure you it's not always the case. You get burned a lot more on the PC side of the fence than you do with a Mac. Luckily for us we're under warranty. But for those switchers on the Mac ads who are talking about how they don't have an IT department so they switched. I'm absolutely SURE they're telling the truth.
I also work in an IT organization for an enterprise with over 10,000 employees (Only about 2,000 or so at my location.) We use everything Dell (except for printers). Why do we use them? Because they're cheap. Do we have problems with reliability? Not so much with the desktops and workstations. But the laptops are absolute crap. So far we've had about 10 motherboard replacements with the Latitude C610 models because they just died. Their clocks are all screwed up meaning we're probably going to have to replace more. The video drivers are completely buggy and Windows Explorer freezes on them. And this is with Win2k with the most updated drivers available. So scem0, while you may have had a good experience with Dell, I can assure you it's not always the case. You get burned a lot more on the PC side of the fence than you do with a Mac. Luckily for us we're under warranty. But for those switchers on the Mac ads who are talking about how they don't have an IT department so they switched. I'm absolutely SURE they're telling the truth.
MisterMe
macrumors G4
Re: Re: Everyone is different
Elsewhere in this thread, you have contended that Windows machines are comparable in quality to Macs. Well, we have very different standards of quality. Sitting on my receptionist desk is a Gateway. It is usable, but the sound card is shot and the video pin-cushions, seemingly due to a problem with the video card. One of my workers just bought one of your beloved high-quality Dells for his home. Well, the deliveryman is expected to return the thing to the factory today. It would not even boot-up when pulled out of the box.
This may come as a surprise to you, but much of the software out there ran natively on MacOS X when it was introduced. It's called Carbon, it works, and it's only getting better. I had installed Adobe Acrobat 5.0 under MacOS 9.0. When I upgraded from MacOS 9 to MacOS X 10.0, Acrobat ran natively on the new OS. Zero additional software investment. Many other titles that require upgrades to be MacOS X native are available at standard upgrade prices, a small fraction of the price of software for a new platform. Of course, you may spend your money the way you see fit.
Elsewhere in this thread, you have contended that Windows machines are comparable in quality to Macs. Well, we have very different standards of quality. Sitting on my receptionist desk is a Gateway. It is usable, but the sound card is shot and the video pin-cushions, seemingly due to a problem with the video card. One of my workers just bought one of your beloved high-quality Dells for his home. Well, the deliveryman is expected to return the thing to the factory today. It would not even boot-up when pulled out of the box.
allpar
macrumors 6502
Hardware funding software
Funny, I thought those $130 upgrades funded software a little bit 🙂
I know the hardware has to be more epxensive because it funds the software. however, Apple has a MASSIVE war chest right now - about equal to its market cap - and STILL doesn't make a BASIC TOWER for NORMAL PEOPLE.
That is to say, an inexpensive computer to sell to people who are in the market for something like an eMac, but who DON'T WANT A BUILT IN MONITOR.
BTW, back in 1987 and 1993, with my thousand-dollar examples, I did not buy state of the art - but I came pretty darned close. A Mac Plus was about the speed of an SE - hard to tell the difference using it, and it looked better (the SE was made better and could have an internal HD). The Quadra 605 was a 25 MHz 68040LC - and I quickly upgraded it to a full 68040 (easy to do). (Also clock-chipped it to 33!) - which was nearly as fast as the Quadra 700 even in stock trim. I'd LOVE an equivalent to that machine now - I'd guess it to be a $1,000 G4-800 or so. (But what I'm *really* looking for *now* is a used blue and white G3 with nothin' in it - no hard drive, no RAM, no CD, nothin' - because I have all that stuff, and I want a cheap upgrade to my beige so the bus can get to a decent speed and my G4 card can actually do some work.)
Funny, I thought those $130 upgrades funded software a little bit 🙂
I know the hardware has to be more epxensive because it funds the software. however, Apple has a MASSIVE war chest right now - about equal to its market cap - and STILL doesn't make a BASIC TOWER for NORMAL PEOPLE.
That is to say, an inexpensive computer to sell to people who are in the market for something like an eMac, but who DON'T WANT A BUILT IN MONITOR.
BTW, back in 1987 and 1993, with my thousand-dollar examples, I did not buy state of the art - but I came pretty darned close. A Mac Plus was about the speed of an SE - hard to tell the difference using it, and it looked better (the SE was made better and could have an internal HD). The Quadra 605 was a 25 MHz 68040LC - and I quickly upgraded it to a full 68040 (easy to do). (Also clock-chipped it to 33!) - which was nearly as fast as the Quadra 700 even in stock trim. I'd LOVE an equivalent to that machine now - I'd guess it to be a $1,000 G4-800 or so. (But what I'm *really* looking for *now* is a used blue and white G3 with nothin' in it - no hard drive, no RAM, no CD, nothin' - because I have all that stuff, and I want a cheap upgrade to my beige so the bus can get to a decent speed and my G4 card can actually do some work.)
Re: Hardware funding software
Funny, my first Mac was a Plus that I upgraded to have 4 megs of RAM and then after drooling over my friend's IIci for a while I bought a Performa 476 (retail Quadra 605). Aah, brings back memories.
Funny, my first Mac was a Plus that I upgraded to have 4 megs of RAM and then after drooling over my friend's IIci for a while I bought a Performa 476 (retail Quadra 605). Aah, brings back memories.
I am making my thesis about Apple and the first inconvenient everyone seems to point out is the price.
Why can't apple compete?
Time will tell, as for me , there is nothing else but a mac close to me , if there was a time when there are no macs, i would go back to a pencil and a paper, but never to a pc.
Why can't apple compete?
Time will tell, as for me , there is nothing else but a mac close to me , if there was a time when there are no macs, i would go back to a pencil and a paper, but never to a pc.
allpar
macrumors 6502
Funny comment...
...since Mac OS X resembles Windows XP more than it does Mac OS 9.
Well, I'll try Jaguar and see if iti helps. Wish Apple would just break down and buy one of the many shareware Apple menu and task menu replacements... guess Steve Jobs really did become a limiting factor after a while...as all the books say...shame. If he wasn't so #@&^#@*&! stubborn the Mac would not have been so great, but then again it wouldn't have been so limited after a while... don't know why they're so stuck on their "new" interface. I suspect more people would have switched if they had kept more of the friendly old Mac interface...
...since Mac OS X resembles Windows XP more than it does Mac OS 9.
Well, I'll try Jaguar and see if iti helps. Wish Apple would just break down and buy one of the many shareware Apple menu and task menu replacements... guess Steve Jobs really did become a limiting factor after a while...as all the books say...shame. If he wasn't so #@&^#@*&! stubborn the Mac would not have been so great, but then again it wouldn't have been so limited after a while... don't know why they're so stuck on their "new" interface. I suspect more people would have switched if they had kept more of the friendly old Mac interface...
Rocketman
macrumors 603
I wish all the PC comparison people would use this as the basis. Every couple of years I go to PC Club (low cost PC supplier with high end build to order capability) and have them do a custom quote of a "similarly equipped PC". It is always MORE MONEY with LESS software support and integration, and on the point of integration, when you ask a PC service or sales geek, "how do you do this on a PC"? The typical answer is either a blank stare or "contact the vendor." I then ask, which vendor? And the answer is BLANK STARE.
If you have an issue with Apple ask Apple. If you need to know how to do a particular task there is lots on the net and the vendors (admittedly they are zealots) actually CAN tell you what to do and how to integrate 3rd and 4th party devices to make it work.
Don't even get me started on the Gateway commercial that says for a $100 price difference you can get a PC that "runs thousands more apps than a Mac". Hello. An iMac can run OS9, OSX, UNIX proper, linux, and every flavor of DOS and windows. EVERYTHING.
False advertising. And the arguement VCP does not come in the box is not valid. Those thousands of applications do not either. VPC is the FIRST application you buy if the comparison is the point and Yellow Dog Linux is the second.
Rocketman
MacBandit
macrumors 604
The actual list of good useable software that's not on the Mac platform is pretty short. When people talk about how many applications the Mac platform doesn't have most don't realize that that includes every nickel and dime shareware and freeware app written for a WinPC.
MisterMe
macrumors G4
Re: Hardware funding software
My advice to those who want a better system but cannot afford a new Mac, do what automobile buyer in the sam situation do. Buy used. A used 800 MHz G4 will do everything that you want your cheap new G4 to do and will do it more reliably.
The MacPlus did not support an internal hard disk, but you could most certainly add an external one. My first Mac, however, was an SE with two internal floppies. The Mac SE was introduced in 1987 when just about every application shipped on a floppy that included the System.
My advice to those who want a better system but cannot afford a new Mac, do what automobile buyer in the sam situation do. Buy used. A used 800 MHz G4 will do everything that you want your cheap new G4 to do and will do it more reliably.
MacBandit
macrumors 604
Re: Funny comment...
I understand your point but I continue to be hung up on your first line.
This is inferring somehow that OSX has copied XP and we all know this is simply not true. OSX was released long before XP. Again, I do understand what you mean. The OSX environment is like the seasons. OS9 would be summer and OSX would be fall. They are very similar but very different.
I understand your point but I continue to be hung up on your first line.
This is inferring somehow that OSX has copied XP and we all know this is simply not true. OSX was released long before XP. Again, I do understand what you mean. The OSX environment is like the seasons. OS9 would be summer and OSX would be fall. They are very similar but very different.
I think STYLE is that apple has always used auto-ejecting floppy drives. I haven't ever seen a pc which can eject floppies from the OS. I don't see the lack of a floppy drive in the mac since 1998 as a loss, but still no PC has surpassed Apple on this point 😉
-Dr. D.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
I'm sure that for every Mac of that vintage still in service there will be about 15 times as many PCs of that vintage (proportionate to market share) still in service. Also, anecdotal evidence is not an accurate indication of how long Macs last compared to PCs. "I know x really old Macs that are still in service compared to very few really old PCs" is not valid.
That's great, but in that case you should be giving credit to the drive maker (Seagate, Western Digital, Micrapolis, etc.), not Apple, since Apple has never manufactured hard drives - only rebadged them.
MacBandit
macrumors 604
The points are I know no local businesses that depend on old PC's day in and day out to run there business.
Apple get's the credit for the hard drive because they chose the brand they tested the drive and they certified it to work dependably with there computer. They were willing to sell it under there name. In the last 3 years alone among my friends and family about 4 out of 6 PCs have had a hard drive failure. It's my oppinion that it's the fault of the PC manufacturor for not installing a better drive. Same as it's Apples fault for using such a good drive.
I understand what both sides are saying here, but I bought a mac because I wanted a mac. Yes, the frustration of going into 90% of stores and not being able to find much (if anything) in the way of software is annoying. Yes, macs are more expensive (like caddilacs, bmws, audis, ect...) but you tell me where I can get a clone PC for $2000 with a 17' lcd and a dvd burner that looks so good in my house and takes up so little room. I am a consumer and I don't need many programs, but I sure use iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, sherlock, appleworks, and iDvd quite a bit. Gaming is lacking, but not horribly. I have my favorte games on my mac. I play CIV3 and the sim games and I run tons of emulator software (for atari, nes, snes, ect.). I Use my iMac for web surfing, e-mail, editing video and to burn cds and dvds and thats about it for right now. I would enjoy a bit more speed, but I could get that with a $100 ram upgrade. I don't think most people are concerned with the Mhz issue as much as you think. I think most people (the average consumer) are just uneducated about macs and what they do, and so don't even bother looking.
By the way, this is my first mac. I had a horrible gateway before. It was horrible.
Anyways.... I am thrilled with my 5 week old 17in LCD iMac, it kicks booty!!!
By the way, this is my first mac. I had a horrible gateway before. It was horrible.
Anyways.... I am thrilled with my 5 week old 17in LCD iMac, it kicks booty!!!
groovebuster
macrumors 65816
I have to disagree again... 🙄 There are a lot of pro apps outside the graphic design & music field that are NOT available for the Mac by a larger number. Key applications are missing like a full and working support for MS Exchange servers with all the functionality they provide (please don't discuss with me if it is a good product, it is an industry standard used in a lot of companies, period), Engineering software, CAD, Enterprise software like an SAP-client or an "simple" software like VISIO... the list is endless. Nickel and dime shareware and freeware??? I don't think so...
And those missing apps are very often the reason why in a lot of fields the Mac is not an alternative at all. Of course you get almost everything for the Mac that is available for WinPCs for "creative" work. But that's really almost it... the rest is diaspora.
That is the problem of the Mac... you can't do a lot of "serious" business on it besides some creative stuff. I really wonder how they ever gonna raise market share on the pro field if that's not gonna change. But the question is just HOW? No mac users -> no apps, no apps -> no mac users. The old problem...
If they would be more competitive with the hardware they provide, they would at least put a little bit pressure onto the software developers, when people gain interest in the platform...
groovebuster
MacBandit
macrumors 604
I admit and agree that you have a point but by and large the quantity of good software out there that is not on a Mac as I said is very small. Yes the ones that are good and aren't on a Mac may be the few that a person needs but by and large they do not make up the majority of software.
groovebuster
macrumors 65816
Very often the question is not if the software is good or the best, it is just that it is needed because it is an industry standard or there are no working solutions at all for the Mac. I somehow understand your fanatism for the Mac platform, I am a Mac user myself... but try to stay a little bit objective. The majority of the users are pro users and don't need Photoshop or FCP. They use other software solutions that in most cases are not available for the Mac at all... and this is not just 3 programs over all or something...
groovebuster
MacBandit
macrumors 604
I will on the other hand never argue the need for some people to have a PC and a Mac. With that though I believe pro users that we have been describing make up less then 1/2 of 1 percent of the market. It's likely an even smaller number then that that actually need a faster machine then a G4 400 let alone the software that you/we have been discussing.
Yeah, in the industry I'm in (automotive / engineering), there are no viable software solutions for Macintosh. The big CAD programs (Unigraphics, CATIA, Pro/E, SDRC, PDGS, AutoCAD, etc.) just don't exist on the Mac. Therefore, they're precluded from a whole industry.
Um, WC3 is jumpy on a <year old P4 2.2GHz with GeForce 2MX (512MB RAM, Creative Live! sound card, etc). Yeah, the video card isn't spectacular, but that's what I'm stuck with on this machine (and WC3 isn't worth the bucks to upgrade a video card).
WC3 is not the best judge of what is "old" or not when it doesn't run smoothly on what most would consider a fairly high-powered (although not top-of-the-line) current PC.
That having been said, I haven't seen it on current or old Mac hardware, so it might perform differently on the Mac side than on the PC side ...
Correct. The Auto industry (and, likewise, the entire CAD industry) is tied to Windows and will remain so for many years. AutoCAD does not have a Mac version, and the CAD industry is just not large enough for them to put the massive development and support effort required to release a Mac version (it would be large enough for a simpler program to be ported over, but AutoCAD is far from simple, and the infinite backwards-compatibility requirements mean that old bugs have to remain supported forever).
And, of course, if AutoCAD were to switch over themselves then they would lose marketshare massively because the existing Wintel infrastructure in the industry will not switch wholesale over to Mac. The same holds true for Linux users (no AutoCAD, and no hopes for such any time in the near future). There are CAD alternatives out there, but they don't yet have the stability or interoperability with AutoCAD required to replace them (and if you think MS has been devious in their binary format design, you haven't seen the tricks AutoCAD has thrown in to make sure no one else can read their files without their express consent!) With the experience gained reverse-engineering MS Office formats, though, I'm beginning to have hope that someday an open alternative to AutoCAD will arise. Today, though, that's a hugely uphill battle.
Given that your industry has no hopes of ever being able to use a Mac, and thus you have no hope of ever using a Mac at work and no hope of ever being able to completely rid yourself of Windows, and yet you still come here to a Mac rumor site ... that, IMHO, is a terrific testimonial to what Apple has put together.