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I agree with this but it is clearly not just AT&T engaged in this poor practice.

Is there a class action against AT&T or Apple??
How do we sign up?

There was a report a while back saying that someone was filing a class action lawsuit against Apple over 3G. I kind of don't see the point though -- the 2-year ATT plan costs about 10x the cost of the phone to the consumer.

This came out just this morning:
http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/08/31/1225252.shtml
It's only Washington state, but it is their Supreme Court.

I still think what would be best is if Apple were to decide that it is no longer bound to its exclusivity agreement with ATT and to issue iPhone 3Gs for other carriers like T-Mobile. It's true that no carrier is going to be 100% the best choice for each and every person. But at least then there will be competition by carriers for iPhone 3G users, and people won't be required to choose ATT to get the benefit of the iPhone OS. Better for Apple too, if they can pull it off.
 
There was a report a while back saying that someone was filing a class action lawsuit against Apple over 3G. I kind of don't see the point though -- the 2-year ATT plan costs about 10x the cost of the phone to the consumer.

This came out just this morning:
http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/08/31/1225252.shtml
It's only Washington state, but it is their Supreme Court.

I still think what would be best is if Apple were to decide that it is no longer bound to its exclusivity agreement with ATT and to issue iPhone 3Gs for other carriers like T-Mobile. It's true that no carrier is going to be 100% the best choice for each and every person. But at least then there will be competition by carriers for iPhone 3G users, and people won't be required to choose ATT to get the benefit of the iPhone OS. Better for Apple too, if they can pull it off.

The idea that simply outgrowing its own capacity is appealing - but that should affect all people, the people I know with iPhones are perfectly happy (NYC and Boston/Cambridge). I still have to meet a person who reports on his problems personally. That is not explained by the network so there are additional problems.
 
The idea that simply outgrowing its own capacity is appealing - but that should affect all people, the people I know with iPhones are perfectly happy (NYC and Boston/Cambridge). I still have to meet a person who reports on his problems personally. That is not explained by the network so there are additional problems.

I don't know what's happening with the iPhone in other countries, but that would be interesting to know.

After thinking about it, if there was an error in the iPhone 3Gs networking stack (if it's called that), I still have to at least jointly attribute it to ATT and Apple. Just because, it's pretty clear that the cell carrier has ultimate say about what phones and OSs are going to run on its network. They're the ones that pick and choose out of all the phones and decide what hardware and software functions will be included and supported. But more importantly, ATT must have given the iPhone programmers parameters around which to operate. In my limited experience, I wouldn't be able to get a software programmer to talk to me for more than 3 minutes without being expected to specify more parameters than I would ever have thought of. If ATT had had a functional 3G network prior to the iPhone, that would shift the blame in my mind more to Apple. But ATT really rolled out 3G for the iPhone, so there was some kind of joint planning at work there -- or the absence of it, which is no excuse.

The last iPhone 3G user I met asked me what was up with the email program that gets stuck accessing 3G data indefinitely with no error notice. He wasn't so concerned about it, though. I'm amazed by how people are willing to overlook these things.

If I had to say one thing what is wrong with the iPhone 3G on the Apple side, it's iTunes. It doesn't make sense for the media player and PMP synchronization application that is also now a media store and a network media server to also back up and sell apps for an entire operating system for a phone and serve out updates -- especially a phone that never needs to be synced for any reason, especially if you use the iTunes store function from the phone and Mobile Me on top of that (if it's working).

It's a lesson about the development of the computer-free networked smart phone -- there has to be a way to not just kill malicious or illegal software, but to force an update if needed, specifically in this type of situation. Or, what if there were a security exploit of great significance, stealing people's personal information via malicious code on a website? The iPhone OS functions on iTunes are so inelegantly organized and hard to understand; and, you have to click on a button to even know if there is an OS update. That is a design flaw clearly attributable to Apple. On the other hand, this realm of technology is finally here and very compelling. Apple is pushing the entire market towards the benefit of consumers. App stores (like WM's new Skymarket proposal, Android's Marketplace, Nokia's something or other) are great for developers, existing web services, and consumers. So, if they gaffe a bit in pushing the whole thing forward, I'm willing to take some of it. Everyone in the industry is learning a lot of important things from the iPhone 3G, both its problems and its successes.

On the other hand, there would have been no need to screw around with the networking aspect of the firmware six weeks after release (and 2 weeks after a lot of people would have been able to get out of their ATT contract) were it not for some screw up with ATT. But no one can differentiate between ATT's and Apple's performance when the iPhone 3G doesn't work on this scale. It would be best for Apple to get out of the exclusivity agreement with ATT for that reason in particular. Then the differences in carriers will come to the forefront and serve as the basis of competition, instead of the iPhone being stuck with ATT and having to compete with other smart phones on the basis of one carrier's functioning or malfunctioning.

That's why I submitted an email to Apple, telling them to
1. get out of the exclusivity agreement with ATT,
2. provide the groundwork to get us users out of paying an ETF if we want to switch to another carrier, whenever that option might be available,
3. make as many iPhone 3Gs for other carriers (like T-Mobile) as possible, and
4. give users who want to switch carriers some kind of iTunes store credit or something.

If I knew the coverage by another carrier were better for me, I for one have no problem paying Apple another $300 for a $700 phone if I can get out of paying an ETF, switch carriers and get a new phone at the same time. Some iTunes store credit (like $100 worth) would make it all the more worthwhile.

I sent my email as a product feedback enhancement request. I think carrier non-exclusivity is the best enhancement the iPhone 3G could have right now. If anyone feels the same way, you might as well shoot them an email. Who knows, maybe if enough of us suggest the idea, Apple will do it. Maybe our suggesting it will give Apple enough testimony to get out of the exclusivity agreement. We can only succeed or change nothing.
 
Let me get in one point about something that came up on the blogs a while ago, about the ATT dude talking about Android, that is significant to understand about ATT. The ATT dude was quoted as saying yes, there is now a possibility that ATT would consider offering an Android OS phone. Why? Because he was assured that Android's app store could work with ATT apps, not just T-Mobile apps.

What is he really saying?

He's saying something like this: T-Mobile allows notebook tethering for a pretty low fee, if they monitor it at all. It's part of their "sorry, we have crap coverage, and we're only in the U.S. for our European business customers, but please have a cup of coffee" business strategy. T-Mobile will allow Android apps that facilitate tethering. ATT doesn't even know if it wants to offer tethering on an existing unlimited plan. So, ATT doesn't want a tethering app on any of ATTs Android OS phones, written to work with some other carrier's data plan. They don't want to have to look out for it either, because it costs them money, or they don't know how, because the phones have browsers that are just like desktop browsers. You used to be able to differentiate WAP from ISP. Now you can't rely on that. Or maybe, they just publicly admitted that they have no idea what the hell is going on on their network. Apparently, your phone could be urinating on your leg from the internet and ATT wouldn't know.

What's wrong with what the ATT dude is saying?

It doesn't make any ****ing sense. There's going to be one Android store. It's going to have apps that work on Android OS phones.

These smart phones with 3rd party app development will force cellular carriers to compete because they won't have any control over what apps are running on their phones. That will be over, and ATT doesn't know it, and if they know it now, they don't like it, and they don't understand it.

If Apple and ATT are having a legitimate dispute around divergent interests, this is where the money is.
 
Need a fix to disable 3G when making calls and downloading, then back to 3G in standby. I'm sure the MBA firmware team is already working on it.
 
Other than what I wrote about above, I just asked Apple for a couple more hardware buttons and a thing that would allow me to hang a small plastic figurine from a string off the iPhone.
 
I am not sure why anyone thinks the exclusivity can be broken. It is a business deal. It has a contract with it. There is a lot of money, kick backs, and other stuff at stake. No way the lawyers let this agreement be broken.

Apple got visual voicemail, absolute control, secrecy, subsidies, kick backs, etc.
AT&T got new subscribers and a hook no other carrier can dangle.

You all better come to grips with exclusivity, cause it aint going away until 2011.
 
I am not sure why anyone thinks the exclusivity can be broken. It is a business deal. It has a contract with it. There is a lot of money, kick backs, and other stuff at stake. No way the lawyers let this agreement be broken.

Apple got visual voicemail, absolute control, secrecy, subsidies, kick backs, etc.
AT&T got new subscribers and a hook no other carrier can dangle.

You all better come to grips with exclusivity, cause it aint going away until 2011.

and service level agreements. if ATT isn't delivering what it promised to AAPL, i'm sure AAPL's lawyers have some sort of penalty clause in the contract.
 
I am not sure why anyone thinks the exclusivity can be broken. It is a business deal. It has a contract with it. There is a lot of money, kick backs, and other stuff at stake. No way the lawyers let this agreement be broken.

Apple got visual voicemail, absolute control, secrecy, subsidies, kick backs, etc.
AT&T got new subscribers and a hook no other carrier can dangle.

You all better come to grips with exclusivity, cause it aint going away until 2011.

I have no idea if the exclusivity agreement is really disputable or not. Successfully, I mean. Anyone can sue anyone over practically anything in the U.S.

As far as I've seen, I've been the only person to suggest it to this degree.

But when I look at this situation, I think, if Apple is providing apps to iPhone 3Gs all over the world, and wants to have one app store for the iPhone OS (even though we know there are two) -- why should ATT be able to block the sale of a tethering app for everyone? Of course, I can't imagine only ATT would be against such an app.

But still, there's a real divergence of interests between Apple and ATT or really any carrier over 3rd party smart phone software development. The same for Android OS, but much more so, specifically because it is not tied up in an exclusivity deal. That non-carrier exclusivity gives the Android OS much more weight in the market than Apple can get riding on ATT.

It seems like there are just a few players in the upcoming mobile app / network game.
1. mobile device manufacturers;
2. people who manage app stores and quasi-open to open mobile device OS's;
3. existing web service providers;
4. 3rd party app developers who are very successful (a thoroughly relative term);
5. people who own and operate a network.

For the most part, it seems like players 1-4 have a lot to gain by pushing against player 5. Consumers have a lot to gain if players 1-4 do push against player 5. And, Apple is basically players 1, 2, and 3 at the same time.

Apple would benefit tremendously by being unhooked from ATT, not just in relation to the iPhone, but also because the iPhone connects with your home entertainment network over cellular. A lot of music is going to be streaming over the cellular network to people's iPhones, and with that a lot of behavioral data in terms of music listening. That data is worth money to a company that wants to sell all media content digitally. Apple can figure out a way to get a piece of that, and that's worth more than whatever they got from ATT for carrier-exclusivity. And that's just one way. The bigger stake is in mobile apps, and that definitely goes the same direction.

More and more, network service providers offer only one product: access to the internet. If we had a completely stable cellular data network, we could talk to each other on Skype all day. (One thing cellular providers should have done is increased the bandwidth for voice data, to make people sound more like people; given how many cell to cell conversations there are, that would have actually added some value to cell phone service.) Anyway, everyone just wants the internet all the time. That's it. I use my iPhone as a phone <2% of the time I'm using it.

It's like record labels and the recording industry to a degree. Record labels have no real product that differentiates them from one another. No one knows or cares which label a record comes out on.... until now. Now, people just avoid the recording industry, because of, well, increasing amounts of hatred. At least in one way, companies who provide network access are in the same boat. They all offer one thing: internet access. Anything else they can give you, like cable TV, or phone calls, or music -- all of that can just come from the internet.

It's a real change. I don't know what's going to happen. But I do think Apple should get unhitched if it can. What are they getting from ATT really, except money that they might be better off not having with whatever conditions come attached to that money. Given how much apps are going to make, Apple should be selling the iPhone at a loss.
 
New guy on the board but have been reading the site for a year and some change...anyway...

I bought a 3G iPhone in July and I really haven't had any problems with it. 3G service is pretty good (normally 2 to 3 bars) and I live in Northridge although I'm in Los Angeles alot. The only problems I had with the phone was the bit of lag using the keyboard when I'm txting or writing down notes on the notepad, the contacts had a bit of lag also and an app crashing here and there. This was all on 2.0.1. As I was reading the problems many people have had regarding upgrading to 2.0.2., I was worried that if I had upgraded to 2.0.2, my buggy but workable iPhone would just turn to utter crap like some people have reported. Oh BTW, the phone was jailbroken.

This past weekend, my phone went out on me because I was messing around with customizing a theme and what not and since I deleted the past jb restore, I had to upgrade to 2.0.2, redownload pwnage and do everything all over again. Once everything was done, I have to say that whatever 2.0.2 did to remedy 2.0.1, from my experience, it did. Contacts now run smoother with no lag as does using the keyboard. As far as 3G service quality, it's pretty much the same although I'm getting 4 bars more often than before. Didn't really have a problem with dropped calls prior to 2.0.1 (I had a couple but not a frustrating amount) and I haven't had a dropped call since upgrading...granted it's only been 2 days since the upgrade.

I'm not gloating...but after reading all the iPhone horror stories, I'm wondering how many actual people are suffering from problems vs. those that aren't. At one point, I was beginning to think that the majority of the people who purchased 3G iphones were having problems but I think that's due in part to reading the many stories of problematic iphones...
 
I don't buy that an Iphone vs any other 3g GSM phone, will cause a tower to drop calls.

There should be no difference. Thats why standards are in place for design.
 
I don't buy that an Iphone vs any other 3g GSM phone, will cause a tower to drop calls.

There should be no difference. Thats why standards are in place for design.

My 3G and EDGE data connections have been down all day in the Boston area from my iPhone 3G. From what I've read on the blogs, this is just a problem with iPhone 3Gs. So you're right, this is not a problem with all 3G phones. This is a problem with ATT and the iPhone 3G.
 
Both my 3G and EDGE are back up, slower 3G than before but seemingly stable. I wonder if ATT wasn't aware that they had to do something and initiated a planned fix, or if there was some kind of sudden failure in the system.
 
Bad 3g

all i know is that my reception has been worse since the 2.0.2 update. in fact, ive had more dropped calls in the past 3 days than at any other point with the 3g

I am so regretting "upgrading" my iPhone. My wife and I both replaced our old iPhones with the 3g model when it came out.

We have had nothing but horrible 3g reception and tons of missed, dropped and downright crappy calls.

We both keep our 3g turned off.
 
To add a little clarification here.... UMTS works on a shared spectrum where every phone is listening to bits destined to multiple phones.

When one phone requests an inordate amount of power it raises the noise floor for the rest of the phones, and even creates a problem with the requesting phone.

So yes, it DOES increase reception (higher power).

It decreases reception at the tower (slightly).

It's apparently wreaking havoc on ATT's network and they are going to be pissed about not getting to QA it properly, or someone is going to be in the ******* for sucking at their job. This is what QA is for.

These are all complexities that verizon and spring have had to deal with for years, using CDMA.

So keep on using 2.0.1 for now if you so desire, but after a week or two after most everyone has upgraded, you'll have no incentive to be needlessly jamming other people off the network, unless you just like being a jerk.
 
So traveled around a bit. The software update made NO difference in my local calling area. All was the same as before, no more or less dropped calls. No more or less data speeds. No more or less crashes, though my phone doesn't crash much before.

Traveled to NYC AFTER the update. Could have sworn I was in the sticks. Kept switching between 3g and edge. Poor call quality. Slower 3g speeds and dog slow edge (compared to my local area). Best I could figure out was the buildings. Some buildings seemed to interfer with 3g signal or perhaps AT&T was correct and there is just that many people in NYC with an iPhone to draw the power down on a tower. And there are a ton of people with iPhones!

I did find in certain place, at various times throughout the day I would get consistent poor service. I think this would rule out the "power drawn down" concept.
 
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