Developers Now Required to Share Phone Number and Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement

[d686546s]

I'm sure there's edge cases, but broadly if you regularly sell goods/products/services for money you are engaging in commercial activities. Whether you do that as your main occupation or as a hobby doesn't really matter.

Providing contact information is the sort of thing you'd expect from a business in the 'real' world, so I can see why you'd want that from someone selling digital goods as well. I haven't read the DSA in detail, but I suspect this goes beyond customer service and ensures that customers can, for example, take legal action and serve official correspondence.

 

[hans1972]

It feels pretty clear and settled to me. I'm not a professional developer, and any app I create is just a side project for me, therefore I am not a trader. If developing becomes my day job, or a significant portion of my income, then yes I am a trader.

That's why they left the door open with self identification. Not every case is the same.

The definition of trader is ment to be very broad.

It's difficult to escape being a trader if you're receiving money from your app and your app is regularly updated and available for sale.

The European Court of Justice has dealt with this and they came up with 10 criteria one needs to consider. And those criteria are non-exhaustive and non-exclusive.

 

[hans1972]

I am a dev, I think this is actually malicious on the part of Apple for wanting to wage a war on regulation. My cursory reading into DSA in May was that it is Apple’s decision to include phone and address as “redress”. (Not a lawyer.) At the very least, Apple's own language is very ambiguous and they need to be providing better guidance to developers on how to answer the trader question instead of leaving us in the dust.

Violations of the DSA can be up to 6% of world-wide revenue and close supervision by the EU-commission for years.
It's understandable if Apple err on the side of caution.

 

[malu05a]

does the EU validate this information so nefarious developers can't just publish false info?

Nope, Apple validates it.
You must provide a government issued proof of your name + address when submitting the EU Trader request, and they confirm your phone number with a SMS code. What is a bit bonkers is that you must provide the proof of address in English, you are allowed to translate it yourself but you will be responsible for the 100% accuracy of the translation.

 

[amartinez1660]

This is ridiculous and I doubt those clowns at the EU parliament actually thought about small developers when they passed this ********. The commission has gone rogue and nowadays basically works nonstop to pass surveillance laws.

But the worst thing is people defending it. If the EU passes some law to kill puppies there will be fanboys defending it. I suspect none of those people live around here.

“I suspect none of those people live around here.”

They don’t live there and they neither develop apps, plus they are likely incentivized to stir the pot over these forums and elsewhere as an EU activist of some sort for some reason.

I’m of the opinion, for example, that the real activists are the engineers, biologists, maths/physics/geo PhDs, etc that work to find solutions to problems and not the Karen/Ken ‘Burbs burning down some streets around the corner screaming for attention and validation.

This is similar, the best we can do is listen to the people that actually do the job and are fully affected by it. And the consensus seems to be, even with the potential good intentions behind it, that this law passed is problematic.

But the nature of the people against you comes off as the usual: “no, we don’t listen to you nor we care, kneel” authoritarian tone.
After the lockdowns there seems to be a boosted fist grip on all things surveillance and privacy.
Also, the powers that be definitely didn’t like the extra lifestyle wins and financial savings for those that doubled down then on the gig economy.

Many points have been brought up, like how Apple already handles all things legalese, taxes and secure money transactions for each country a developer wants to sell on (great value for the $100 a year if you ask me, even though many here also hate it and say they would rather embark on all that on their own if they were to become developers).
Maybe there could be a way to offer extras adjacent to this as a service? Some Apple Dev PO Boxes would be forwarded to you just like refund complaints, reviews, tax papers, sales transactions and other outcomes are forwarded to each dev today.

Anyways, caught me ranting, good luck to you all.

 

[jlc1978]

If you are publishing an app just as a hobby, then you are not considered to be a trader; therefore, you don't need to share your private info. This is explained in the article.

From what I read it's a bit complicated, and even Apple caveats it:

For example, if you're a hobbyist and you developed your app with no intention of commercializing it, you may not be considered a trader.

The "no intention of commercializing it" seems to be key. A hobbyist that sells the app may be a trader, and the EU guidance mentioned in the Apple article seems to indicate selling apps makes you a trader.

It may come down to what the EU considers enough to make development a profession, even if you have another that is your main source of income. Reading the guidance left me thinking a lot of hobbyist developers could get caught up in trader status. If you sell your app they could decide that 'developer' is your profession in context of the DSA.

Until the EU provides clarity I can see small developers who do it more for tehir own satisfaction even as they may make a small amount of money pulling out of EU distribution just to be on the safe side.

From EU Guidance (seemingly related to resale):

Whether a seller qualifies as a ‘trader’ or a consumer must be assessed on a case-by-case basis. In the Kamenova case, a person had published a total of eight sales advertisements for various new and second-hand goods on a website ( 117 ). The Court noted that the mere fact that the sale is intended to generate profit or that a natural person publishes, simultaneously, on an online platform a number of advertisements offering new and second-hand goods for sale cannot suffice, by itself, to classify that person as a ‘trader’. The determination of the status by the national court must take into account different non-exhaustive and non-exclusive criteria.

The criteria include the following:
— whether the seller has a profit-seeking motive, including the fact that they might have received remuneration or other compensation for acting on behalf of a given trader;
— the number, amount and frequency of transactions;
— the seller’s sales turnover; whether the seller purchases products in order to resell them;
— whether the seller is subject to VAT;
— whether the sale is carried out in an organised manner;
— whether the seller had a legal status which enabled them to engage in commercial activities;
— whether the goods for sale were all of the same type or of the same value, and, in particular, whether the offer was concentrated on a small number of goods;
— whether the seller had technical information and expertise relating to the products which the consumer did not
necessarily have, resulting in a more advantageous position of the seller compared to that of the consumer;
— whether the seller purchased these goods in order to resell them, thus making that a regular, frequent and/or
simultaneous activity in comparison with her usual commercial or business activity ( 118 ).

Edit: Added EU Guidance

 

[davide_eu]

Anecdotally, a few of my friends who are small developers and have one or two apps on the App Store are just going to withdraw from the EU store.

Their main concern was the phone number part.

Even my cousin will leave the store.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Anecdotally, a few of my friends who are small developers and have one or two apps on the App Store are just going to withdraw from the EU store.

Their main concern was the phone number part.

Thus, the policy is working already 👍👏

People can hide behind, "...but I'm an Indie" all they want. If they sell their goods, products, services then they should stick to the rules just like anyone else. And even if they don't sell, there are still rules and regulations to oblige by.

 

[jlc1978]

Your business address should be a virtual address, like a PO Box.

A USPS PO Box used for business, however, does not shield youar actual address from anyone:

You can request the name, address, and telephone number of the holder of a post office box that is used for business purposes from the post office. Bring proof that the box is used for business purposes.

It just makes it harder.

 

[H2SO4]

most indie developers don't have an accountant.

I was a sole trader at one time and to advance it was something I had to do. They can do the same surely?
An accountant isn't really necessary, any reputable place can be asked for a registered address.

 

[ronrather]

As a developer in a company with a widely used app, I can confirm Apple do verify the phone number and address. I don't know if the EU is a part of that verification process.

I would like to release my own app(s) one day, so I would like to know is if there is an all-in-one solution (I'm in UK) to provide indie developers a company address and phone number which are acceptable to meet the Trader requirements.

 

[thehamesu]

As a hobby developer, I don’t feel comfortable sharing my home address and personal phone number publicly on the EU App Store. While I agree that laws must be followed, some regulations seem impractical and create unnecessary burdens for independent developers like me. These rules might do more harm than good for smaller developers, so I’ve decided not to release any apps in the EU. It's unfortunate, but protecting my privacy is more important.

 

[AppliedMicro]

This sucks, I distribute an app used by a lot of NATO military members.

I am a small developer. I don't feel comfortable with this. I have an LLC with a registered agent. I don't know why I need to put my home address. I have a 5x8 physical address through the agent. That should be good enough.

You're distributing apps to NATO military members - yet hide your identity and jurisdiction. For all we know, you could be a malicious actor working for non-NATO governments (Russia, China, North Korea), distributing apps to gather intelligence on NATO military personnel.

Now, all that said, we do have business emails, web pages with contact forms, and business phone numbers. If a customer has a problem with me that they don't feel is being addressed properly, they complain to the Real Estate Commission, and they come full barrels after me.

...cause you happen to be conducting a regulated activity.
(Most) other traders aren't.

I thought that's what an email address or contact form on the business' website was for. Plus a business phone number is provided also. How many types of contact info does a customer need for a developer who has no store front and no physical product? Seems like the three forms of contact info I listed would fill the requirement for a customer being able to contact the developer

Even the online store a bodybuilder friend of mine uses to order his (illegally distributed) steroids has email and a contact form (and I believe a phone number, too)

Official or legal paperwork isn't served or delivered through a contact form, email or voicemail.
It's delivered by postal mail, with (if necessary) proof of delivery.

 

[CarAnalogy]

If you’re offering a paid app then your customers should be able to contact you. Seems sensible to me to be honest.

Too many bad actors charge for stuff and have less than desirable customer service.

Yes but is this not the promise of the App Store? Isn’t Apple supposed to be handling that part as part of the deal for their 30% cut? They could provide Apple this information, and Apple already supposedly requires verification. Apple also handles refunds and is supposed to block and remove scams.

This is why people criticize the App Store. In theory it’s great but in practice it’s sometimes not great on purpose.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

As a developer in a company with a widely used app, I can confirm Apple do verify the phone number and address. I don't know if the EU is a part of that verification process.

I would like to release my own app(s) one day, so I would like to know is if there is an all-in-one solution (I'm in UK) to provide indie developers a company address and phone number which are acceptable to meet the Trader requirements.

Set up a limited company, doesn’t cost much. Have a registered addesss service, in the UK there are plenty. Have a Microsoft 365 subscription and add a geographical number to team. All super cheap, but still costs some money. But you’ll be legit.

 

[jlc1978]

ou're distributing apps to NATO military members - yet hide your identity and jurisdiction. For all we know, you could be a malicious actor working for non-NATO governments (Russia, China, North Korea), distributing apps to gather intelligence on NATO military personnel.

He said he had an LLC and registered agent, so he isn’t hiding anything.

I do suspect until there is some clarity for small developers some may simply chose to avoid the EU, just as some websites block EU IP addresses.

 

[CarAnalogy]

Get a PO-style box or address. My wife runs her law practice from our home office, but our home address isn't her business address, it's a PO Box.

Will they allow a PO Box? Some things along these lines specifically disallow that. This sounds more like the EU making sure everyone is registered for tax purposes.

Also, phone number. Again not a huge expense but now you have to add a second one of those too.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

He said he had an LLC and registered agent, so he isn’t hiding anything.

But then there is no issue surely? Just give the details of the LLC 🤷‍♂️ Not that hard is it?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Will they allow a PO Box? Some things along these lines specifically disallow that. This sounds more like the EU making sure everyone is registered for tax purposes.

Also, phone number. Again not a huge expense but now you have to add a second one of those too.

Yes, not allowed in every jurisdiction but sadly it is in some.

 

[ronrather]

Have a Microsoft 365 subscription and add a geographical number to team.

Does MS 365 allow you to add phone numbers?

 

[CarAnalogy]

Does MS 365 allow you to add phone numbers?

Yeah, through Teams.

 

[surferfb]

Yet another example of a law that is foiled by the EU’s complete inability to think through the actual implications of their regulations when it comes to tech.

Clearly there should be an exemption for hobbyists. Would be easy enough to set a monetary threshold, or exemption for individuals.

 

[ronrather]

Yeah, through Teams.

Can you clue me in how this is done. Can't find it anywhere

 

[cocky jeremy]

the law requires it to be validated

Looks like another reason not to sell anything there.

 

[d686546s]

Clearly there should be an exemption for hobbyists. Would be easy enough to set a monetary threshold, or exemption for individuals.

Sounds to me as if 'hobbyists' are already excluded, the disagreement comes (sounds to me) as to who should qualify.

If you don't charge any money you're not captured. Beyond that some seem to argue that they run their business as a hobby and thus shouldn't be required to comply, which sounds both understandable (in the one person doing a bit of coding in their spare time in exchange for little money sort of way), but on the other hand also slightly questionable.

Surely if you sell stuff for money you can be expected to let your customers know who you are and it sounds to me as if you already need to do that if you sell on your own website, so why should it be different if you sell through the App Store?