Did Apple worm its support out of the country like Dell?

[gaijinjim]

Originally posted by TimDaddy
Anyway, on topic... Apple needs to save money and maintain its edge at the same time. I'd say, have their call centers serve their area. Why pay an American $12 an hour to serve India, when an Indian may do it for $5. (I have no idea what tech support people make in either country, so my number may not even resemble truth.)

Honestly, I don't have a problem with the actual outsourcing per se. I basically lost my job in Japan as a result of outsourcing.

However, when the quality of support drops so fast I wonder if the current cost savings will be continued in the future, when people like myself will refuse to pay for the additional support for Apple Care. Not to mention the fact that that Apple's image will be tarnish if this type of support continues. Check out some of the comments in Apple's own Support Discussion site. People are not happy. (Don't have the links right now. I will try and find them later.)

As far as the Bush comment, sorry about opening that can of worms, but the commentary I heard on NPR referred to the fact that is has become much easier under the Bush administration to move jobs overseas while still keeping the tax breaks that are geared to keep jobs in the US.

 

[Nik_Doof]

Originally posted by themadchemist
People who could afford to buy computers in India would be more likely to be fluent in English than in Hindi.

and assumptions are the mother of all f-ups

 

[latergator116]

Originally posted by Krizoitz
Do you realize that there is a fantastically large amount of Indian familes in California? Don't you think its just possible that they may get jobs, and that tech support beats flipping burgers? Just because someone has an acccent doesn't mean they are in a foreign country, and even if they are, so what? If they can get the job done and are treated fairly whats wrong with that? Obviously if they are exploited (sweat shop labor) than we have problems, but Apple is an international company, why shouldn't they have support centers world wide?

Calm down there. I never mentioned anything being wrong with having a call center in India. Also, I highly doubt that all these Indian accents were coming from a call center in California. There was a story on 60 minutes on how many large American companies are moving their tech support to India so it is very likely apple has one there.

 

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by Nik_Doof
and assumptions are the mother of all f-ups

whose assumptions?

oh--and everyone else, don't get so riled up. Literate service industries are all moving to India. The major consulting firms are farming out their analyst work to India. If it's good enough for McKenzie, it's good enough for you.

 

[jane doe]

Hi, I'm new here but I wanna jump in

About 95% of the time I get support that is so on the money you can take it to the bank.

If you think that the person your talking to doesn't know what's going on.... Ask to speak to level 2

 

[TrenchMouth]

i used to have mixed feelings about outsourcing work like this to countries outside of the US. Not because i didn't want to talk to someone outside of the US, but simply because we still have unemployment here, and also because of familiarity, after all you are calling because you are having a problem, there is no reason to increase the level of frustration by having to talk to someone that you have to strain your ears to understand. But the more i read about it the more i start to like the idea of outsourcing.
For one, American companies can afford to pay these people more than they ever would in their respective countries, and still save on what they would have spent here. It helps the global economy, and in the long run it helps streamline how people communicate in business worldwide ( i can imagine that most who work a job like that outside of the US had to take a crash course in business practices here in the US). I think what it comes down to is that we should just get used to the idea that it is possible for large companies to do things better with outside help. It also lets them focus on other things. It does not by any means signal a long term downfall in US jobs. [/rant]

here is to a truly global mac community.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Out of a job in 6-12 months.

Originally posted by themadchemist
whose assumptions?

oh--and everyone else, don't get so riled up. Literate service industries are all moving to India. The major consulting firms are farming out their analyst work to India. If it's good enough for McKenzie, it's good enough for you.

This is why I'm seriously thinking of getting out of the IT industry. It's too damn easy to outsource someone's job to some $5 worker in India. Right now the company I work for is looking at outsourcing all IT staff in North America. That is aprox 500 jobs including me. It isn't because I suck at my job. Nope. Its because the company is a cheap bastard who doesn't want to pay benefits.
So in 6-12 months I may be out of the job I've been at for 6 years. Finally something I can't blame Bush for. I blame corp greed. It's a corp domino effect. Once one company does it to save some cash everyone does it so that one company doesn't have an advantage over its competitors. Someone tell me how we are to compete when other countries can lowball the US on the hourly or salary wage? Its not like I can afford an apartment on minimum wage. This country is bleeding jobs and if something isn't done we are going to be left with 90% of the country working at Blockbuster, and Denny's as busboys.

 

[gemio17]

Originally posted by latergator116
I either get Indian or southern accents. So yeah... India or Texas....

I just saw a program on the outsourcing firms in India- and the reason a lot of tech support sounds southern is that the southern accent is the easiest for foreigners (in this case Indians) to emulate. They have english speaking classes at the call centers where they practice sounding more american. AND a lot of them use southern accents. It was pretty funny to watch- but my advice is to do what I do- tell them no offense but I CAN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD THAT YOU SAY, and ask for someone else to help you. especially when talking to a bank or about something really important-like where's my powerbook
if you are going to take a job where you need to speak on the phone- you should be able to clearly and intelligently speak the language of the country(ies) that you are serving. I'm sorry if it sounds mean, but whether you have a thick brooklyn accent or a thick Indian accent, don't take a phone job if you can't communicate in a clear professional manner.

 

[latergator116]

Originally posted by gemio17
I just saw a program on the outsourcing firms in India- and the reason a lot of tech support sounds southern is that the southern accent is the easiest for foreigners (in this case Indians) to emulate. They have english speaking classes at the call centers where they practice sounding more american. AND a lot of them use southern accents. It was pretty funny to watch- but my advice is to do what I do- tell them no offense but I CAN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD THAT YOU SAY, and ask for someone else to help you. especially when talking to a bank or about something really important-like where's my powerbook
if you are going to take a job where you need to speak on the phone- you should be able to clearly and intelligently speak the language of the country(ies) that you are serving. I'm sorry if it sounds mean, but whether you have a thick brooklyn accent or a thick Indian accent, don't take a phone job if you can't communicate in a clear professional manner.

Was this the one on 60 minutes? I also know that they don't give you their real name over the phone - instead they make up their own names. The three times I called them I got a Sally, Sue, and a Timmy.

One of them had a little trouble spelling because she was giving me some tech support and she said "hold down the 'C' key as in 'Sally'"

 

[txcraig75]

Originally posted by mj_1903
There are two call centers in the US, Sacremento and Texas.

Actually those are the two primary (and by far largest) call centers. When I was an APP contractor, there were also much smaller call centers including one in Elk Grove, CA and one up in the NE. There was also Minacs, which is the call center in Canada.

At that time, though I think it has been changed some since I left, Austin primarily handled the pro products, i.e. Power Macs and PowerBooks, along with the specialized groups Servers & Apps, Pro Video and Education. Sac primarily handled the consumer line products, i.e. iMacs/eMacs, iBooks and legacy machines. Minacs did both consumer and pro machines. Both Austin and Sac have higher tier support groups as well. At the time, all agents could get QT and iPod calls.

As agents complete more training, their skill set can be increased to include more products; furthermore, it was not unusual for a Sac agent to get Pro calls or an Austin agent to get consumer calls especially if you've improved your skill set. All of these call centers primarily handle calls from North America, but are trained to take Europe and Asia/Pac calls if necessary. The reverse is probably also true.

Apple has people that monitor the queues and calls can be shifted if a queue is getting slammed or if a center becomes unavailable. For example, the day before Thanksgiving 2002, the City of Austin accidently deprived Apple's Austin campus of power due to some electrical work on power lines. The backup generators allowed time to shift the calls to Sac while we were in a blackout. Later that winter, Minacs was snowed out and their calls got diverted to Austin.

The location in India AFAIK is only so that Apple can have 24hr support (hence why there is a location in Australia as well).

And as mentioned, there is also one in Cork, Ireland. One of the humorous things on the wall in the building I worked in were these four clocks. Instead of cities or timezones they were marked Guiness, Shiner, Chardonay and Fosters.

And from my experience, I wouldn't try to peg where an agent is by their accent. At Apple Austin, we had plenty of people from all over the country.

 

[G5orbust]

Im wondering why everyone is getting all pissed over something so petty.

Here is the bottom line:

Apple has tech support like everyone else.
They hire whom ever they choose to, where ever they choose to. If you tech is not up to par 1) ask for his supervisor or 2) hang up and call again.

Pretty simple thing if you ask me.

Pretty ignorant though to automatically assume someone with an accent is automatically located in that country. Immigrant peoples in the US still need jobs to put food on the table and wont lose their accents just so you are more comfortable with their service.

 

[Kethoticus]

Outsourcing IS bad...

Too many American corporations are realizing that they can increase their bottom line with cheaper foreign labor. This has nothing to do with Bush or Clinton or anyone else. It's capitalism.

GM has done it. Dell has. Apple has (yes, there are tech centers in India, and that one office has at least 100 employees). My problem with this is that the more American corporations hire foreign workers, the less jobs there will be for us living here. Then, ultimately, Corporate America's chickens will come home to roost, as we'll be a nation of rich and poor with no middle class, and there'll be no one to buy their stuff. We could collapse economically. Our greed will be our own undoing.

Any opinions on this? Do I have it wrong? I hope I do because if I'm right, America is in long-term trouble, and I don't just mean because of the breakdown of the family or the national debt of $7 trillion.

In my opinion -- and I welcome informed opinions pointing out a different way -- the feds should fine corporations for hiring overseas. Now I realize that this is a broad-based statement, and I understand that there are circumstances that might require foreign hirees. But when those circumstances are not right, perhaps fining them an estimated amount based how much money they saved by hiring in India, Taiwan, etc., would be a good incentive for them staying grounded in the US.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

No I don't think you are wrong. It is much along the lines of the thread dealing with the Apple employees and their bonuses. What i got from that thread was "I got my money, they need to earn theirs".

It used to be that if a company took jobs from America, or laid employees off they were rewarded with a drop in their stock. Now we raise the value of their stock, and fatten the bloated pockets of the execs.

But the American people are to blame too. Unless we are willing to pay higher prices in order to keep jobs in America, we will be a country of the haves and have not's.

Instead of companies asking for job training programs to keep jobs in the US, they ask for relaxation of Visa requirements in order to fill hard to place positions.

In the post 9-11 world we are asked to tighten our borders to keep terrorists out. Unless the people are from the south of the border. then it is ok to let these immigrants in for the jobs that can't be filled by Americans. Why not pay wages for these jobs so that the unemployed are given a reason to take these jobs?

As i stated in the Apple employee thread, charity begins at home. And in this case charity does not mean a handout. But compassion and a willingness to help your fellow man. How is that being addressed by the current party in control? By asking that the overtime laws be changed so that fewer Americans get overtime pay then under current law.

It is time that we forget the theories of "Trickle-down Economics, and the mantra that "Greed Is Good". And look at what is best for our fellow man. No hand outs. Just honest wages and job opportunities for those that live legally in the US.

 

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by gaijinjim
THE STATE OF WASHINGTON OUTSOURCES!!! This infuriates me when Washington state residents can't find jobs but the people handling their unemployment is from a foreign country. Don't know if that is fact or not, but there is a bill in the Washington State Legistlature requiring state departments at least keep the jobs in the US. Currently, over 20 some odd depts out of roughly 35, have shipped jobs overseas.

Don't get me wrong. Look at my handle. Gaijin (foreigner in Japanese) Jim. I lived and worked in Japan for numerous years, but I question the logic behind shipping jobs overseas when quality and service fails as a result.

Well as a social science major I am of the opinion that you can love or hate Globalization, but you can't stop it. Last week I read a case study by an NYU political science professor about the outsourcing of German auto maker Mercedes Benz to the US and the negative out come of that impact in germany. However I think the US is the most ill prepared country to deal with globalization... If a german worker gets laid off, he gets a wad of state benefits. If an American work gets laid off, his family starves and things get really depressing. I don't think the government can impose anytype of laws to stop companies from outsourcing jobs without hurting the already slow US economy...what they can and should do is increase social welfare so that people without jobs can more easily transition in to other jobs and have a bigger saftey cushion preventing them from falling in to the poverty cycle.

 

[gfox25]

What the government should do is tax the companies that outsource as high as they can. Sorta like how imported items have higher taxes then american. In an ideal world social welfare would work but this is not and you have to consider the people that are to lazy to work. The last thing this country needs is another reason for people to sit on there butts' and say the government will take care of me, while honest people need it most. Fines for outsourcing is a great idea but it wont fly with the public. Sad to say this but taxes is one of the best ways to kept a company form outsourcing. If a dell computer goes up $100+, people will be more willing to buy from a non outsourced company. If companies like dell see less profits in outsourcing they will head back home. Another way to stop outsourcing is to boycott their products.

 

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by gfox25
What the government should do is tax the companies that outsource as high as they can. Sorta like how imported items have higher taxes then american. In an ideal world social welfare would work but this is not and you have to consider the people that are to lazy to work. The last thing this country needs is another reason for people to sit on there butts' and say the government will take care of me, while honest people need it most. Fines for outsourcing is a great idea but it wont fly with the public. Sad to say this but taxes is one of the best ways to kept a company form outsourcing. If a dell computer goes up $100+, people will be more willing to buy from a non outsourced company. If companies like dell see less profits in outsourcing they will head back home. Another way to stop outsourcing is to boycott their products.

Ok, remember we did sign NAFTA.... so if we do this to all industries, the auto industries will be except because of S america and mexico... alot of other industries will too. be too.....so the it will hit some companies and not others. doesnt sound fair to me.

 

[Toeknee]

I know for a fact that there is a support call center up in Austin,Texas because (check this out) the grad student that was my art teacher last semester used to work there handling some of the calls. He said that one time a caller was frustrating him by calling him over and over again that he just told him to format his HD and zero all data. Yes people in texas can be a pain, I mean after all wouldn't you be if you had to ride a horse to and from work everyday

 

[themadchemist]

Re: Out of a job in 6-12 months.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
This is why I'm seriously thinking of getting out of the IT industry. It's too damn easy to outsource someone's job to some $5 worker in India. Right now the company I work for is looking at outsourcing all IT staff in North America. That is aprox 500 jobs including me. It isn't because I suck at my job. Nope. Its because the company is a cheap bastard who doesn't want to pay benefits.
So in 6-12 months I may be out of the job I've been at for 6 years. Finally something I can't blame Bush for. I blame corp greed. It's a corp domino effect. Once one company does it to save some cash everyone does it so that one company doesn't have an advantage over its competitors. Someone tell me how we are to compete when other countries can lowball the US on the hourly or salary wage? Its not like I can afford an apartment on minimum wage. This country is bleeding jobs and if something isn't done we are going to be left with 90% of the country working at Blockbuster, and Denny's as busboys.

If we really wanted to stop this, we could modify tax laws. For a start, funds put toward these efforts could be made non-tax-deductible. Additionally, all sorts of fees, etc., could be placed on companies per job that they outsourced, which would make it unfavorable to outsource.

 

[gemio17]

Originally posted by latergator116
Was this the one on 60 minutes?

Yep -I think it aired last week, what an eye opener.

 

[mj_1903]

Originally posted by txcraig75
Fosters.

Grrrr.....

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Re: Re: Out of a job in 6-12 months.

Originally posted by themadchemist
If we really wanted to stop this, we could modify tax laws. For a start, funds put toward these efforts could be made non-tax-deductible. Additionally, all sorts of fees, etc., could be placed on companies per job that they outsourced, which would make it unfavorable to outsource.

In reality if we as workers want change it will have to happen in the voting booth. As long as we have the current crop of conservatives in office, they will have big business in their pockets.

 

[themadchemist]

Re: Re: Re: Out of a job in 6-12 months.

Originally posted by Chip NoVaMac
In reality if we as workers want change it will have to happen in the voting booth. As long as we have the current crop of conservatives in office, they will have big business in their pockets.

Nah, the Dems are just as slack on this issue as anyone else...Both parties have big biz in their pockets either monetarily or ideologically--It's just varying degrees. Neither party is strong enough to propose legislation that will really fight htis problem effectively.

Oddly, you wouldn't expect this from the Republicans. After all, they're conservative. Classically, they should be against free trade, unprompted military action, and diplomatic relations with other countries. Isolationism, baby! (Because THAT always worked so well )

However, this neo-conservatism is an interesting trend in economic policy, and one that seems to influence both sides of the aisle to at least some degree.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Out of a job in 6-12 months.

Originally posted by themadchemist
Nah, the Dems are just as slack on this issue as anyone else...Both parties have big biz in their pockets either monetarily or ideologically--It's just varying degrees. Neither party is strong enough to propose legislation that will really fight htis problem effectively.

Oddly, you wouldn't expect this from the Republicans. After all, they're conservative. Classically, they should be against free trade, unprompted military action, and diplomatic relations with other countries. Isolationism, baby! (Because THAT always worked so well )

However, this neo-conservatism is an interesting trend in economic policy, and one that seems to influence both sides of the aisle to at least some degree.

When I used the term conservatives, i was not trying to link to any particular party. Just look at Kerry and his stance on Gay Marriages. Almost in lockstep with Bush, depending on what version of Kerry's words you want to believe.

To me anyone who would vote to eliminate overtime pay for thousands of workers is a conservative. And there are both Dems and Repubs that are leaning towards that. Just as there are those in both parties that support giving corporations and the wealthy greater tax breaks then the working stiff trying to pay for gas to get to work and keep a simple roof over their head.

You hit on something that I have talking about for years. We need a major change in our political system. We need to get the money out of the election process. How many billions of dollars are spent on political campaigning each year? Would it not be nice to see that money go to charitable groups that can make a better life for all?

 

[siliconjones]

saw this on macnn http://www.macnn.com/news/23499

 

[Calliander]

The last I knew, TeleTech had Apple's support contract, so you can't really blame them if TeleTech decides to outsource.

You're not really getting an Apple employee when you call AppleCare, unless they've changed that in the past few months.

Things could be totally different now, though.